Northern Line

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Domh245

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Many terminate at Kennington

Specifically almost every service that runs via Charing Cross terminates at Kennington, with a handful during the peak continuing to Morden (with just about all Bank trains going to Morden). When the battersea extension opens, they'll continue to there
 

ChiefPlanner

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Way back there used to be regular reversals at Tooting Broadway - question for the experts , does the reversing siding still exist ....?
 

Dstock7080

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Specifically almost every service that runs via Charing Cross terminates at Kennington, with a handful during the peak continuing to Morden (with just about all Bank trains going to Morden). When the battersea extension opens, they'll continue to there
No scheduled peak trains, only a few at the extremes of the day

Way back there used to be regular reversals at Tooting Broadway - question for the experts , does the reversing siding still exist ....?
There is an empty reversing train scheduled on Sunday morning
 
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ChiefPlanner

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There is an empty reversing train scheduled on Sunday morning

Thanks - scene of a pretty awful buffer end collision many years ago - but a good strategic asset for operational issues. In my day down there living near South Wimbledon , it was sometimes used off the TT plan to recover the service - or part of it when things went pear shaped.
 

bramling

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Thanks - scene of a pretty awful buffer end collision many years ago - but a good strategic asset for operational issues. In my day down there living near South Wimbledon , it was sometimes used off the TT plan to recover the service - or part of it when things went pear shaped.

Usage is comparatively rare nowadays - firstly the need to tip out, then with the run to Morden and back being slightly quicker than in the past (and in particular less turn round time scheduled at Morden) it will only recover late running of up to around 12 minutes, and then only if the driver doesn’t want to use the toilet!

Colindale is the same, it will recover late running of up to 10 minutes, but only if the driver is playing along by not hanging around changing ends.

Having said all that, with the current comparatively intense service, interventions are necessary for fairly small amounts of late running, as there is virtually zero recovery time at termini, unless the driver is in a hurry and even then it will only be a couple of minutes. The nature of the Northern means an out of path train will often not naturally get back in path, but will continue to end up behind something which should be in front, which then causes small reactionary delays if and until it is righted. So sometimes one might be turned short simply for being a few minutes late, as it is worth getting it back in path if the passenger impact of the short trip isn’t going to be too intrusive.
 

Hadders

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In a couple of months time some existing Kennington terminators will continue to Battersea Power Station.
 

galwhv69

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Way back there used to be regular reversals at Tooting Broadway - question for the experts , does the reversing siding still exist ....?
When I used to use the Northern Line between Clapham South & Tooting Broadway on Saturdays (at least a good 6 years ago by now), they were a pretty common occurrence in the afternoon
 

bramling

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I've never understood why CX trains don't go through to Morden. Seems ridiculous making a trainload of people change at Kennington on a Saturday evening to get to the West End.

The reason why is the same as why Mill Hill East has had a shuttle for the last decade or more. That is, that in the 2000s the Northern Line was very unreliable for a number of reasons, and the timetable in use at the time was too complex to allow the line to recover easily from disruptions. The timetable was looked at by the same forensic mind who devised the "extended circle", and various features were built in which made the service simpler and easier to recover. These features were all off-peak CX trains terminating at Kennington, Mill Hill shuttle, morning peak northbound services segregated at Camden, slightly reduced frequency, and a few other features which escape my memory. Combined with some attention to the infrastructure, this turned the service from very unreliable to highly dependable. Fast forward a decade and a half, and some of the reliability issues which existed at the time are less of an issue, and with a modern signalling and control system there seems to be confidence in reverting to something a little more ambitious - watch this space, some features from the past may reappear soon!
 

700007

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The reason why is the same as why Mill Hill East has had a shuttle for the last decade or more. That is, that in the 2000s the Northern Line was very unreliable for a number of reasons, and the timetable in use at the time was too complex to allow the line to recover easily from disruptions. The timetable was looked at by the same forensic mind who devised the "extended circle", and various features were built in which made the service simpler and easier to recover. These features were all off-peak CX trains terminating at Kennington, Mill Hill shuttle, morning peak northbound services segregated at Camden, slightly reduced frequency, and a few other features which escape my memory. Combined with some attention to the infrastructure, this turned the service from very unreliable to highly dependable. Fast forward a decade and a half, and some of the reliability issues which existed at the time are less of an issue, and with a modern signalling and control system there seems to be confidence in reverting to something a little more ambitious - watch this space, some features from the past may reappear soon!
TfL website states that the new timetable in Autumn when the Battersea extension opens will see Mill Hill East becoming a through service again, rather interestingly. Battersea will only see 6 trains an hour initially and eventually up to 12 next year which means many trains will still terminate at Kennington (via Charing Cross) which is understandable given no new trains / extra trains have been sourced for the extension.
 

Mojo

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When the battersea extension opens, they'll continue to there
Although not all of them, when the line opens in Autumn, only 6tph at peak times will go to Battersea, increasing to 12tph from the middle of next year. The off-peak service will be 5tph, increasing to 10tph.

Fast forward a decade and a half, and some of the reliability issues which existed at the time are less of an issue, and with a modern signalling and control system there seems to be confidence in reverting to something a little more ambitious - watch this space, some features from the past may reappear soon!
The press release about the extension also advises that Mill Hill East will receive direct services for most of the day, as well as an increase in services at the south end of the line for an hour of the morning peak.
 

700007

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Although not all of them, when the line opens in Autumn, only 6tph at peak times will go to Battersea, increasing to 12tph from the middle of next year. The off-peak service will be 5tph, increasing to 10tph.
Quite interesting that the off-peak service will initially be 5tph - it's quite rare to find tube or rail services that are operating (I assume at even intervals) every 12 minutes. Quite often they're always either every 10 or every 15 but never every 12.
 

PeterY

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I know it shouldn't be done but I'm still tempted to ride around the Kennington loop.

How many forum members have done this ?
 

bramling

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Quite interesting that the off-peak service will initially be 5tph - it's quite rare to find tube or rail services that are operating (I assume at even intervals) every 12 minutes. Quite often they're always either every 10 or every 15 but never every 12.

Tyne & Wear Metro operate around 5tph for much of the time - on paper at least!

I know it shouldn't be done but I'm still tempted to ride around the Kennington loop.

How many forum members have done this ?

Riding round the loop isn’t a major issue - just go to the very back of the train so you don’t get people interfering, and there won’t be any issues. It’s very common for people to be carried round there, so one more won’t do any harm.
 

Hadders

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I rode the Kennington Loop about 5 years ago.
 

philthetube

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I've never understood why CX trains don't go through to Morden. Seems ridiculous making a trainload of people change at Kennington on a Saturday evening to get to the West End.
Trains from the Charing cross branch can go round the Kennington loop and head north, no need to remove passengers, if they don't get off the so be it. trains from bank would have to tip out and have staff check they were empty and reverse via the Kennington siding, this is unsustainable with the current service levels, regardless of the fact that one difficult sleeper who will not leave the train would end up with a service suspension.

The reason they have to be tipped out is because the driver has to walk through the train when reversing via the siding but can stay in the cab when going round the loop.
 

Busaholic

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How many Charing Cross branch trains will still use the loop ones the extension opens. Not many I should think?
Sounds like the same number as will go through to Battersea, initially at least: i.e. half the Charing Cross service. Personally, I very much doubt the projected 'full' service to Battersea will materialise, certainly at offpeak times. But then the needs of Londoners were not in the minds of the people who insisted this project leapfrog the queue of worthy ones drawn up by TfL planners.

i'm sure I remembered reading that the Kennington loop would be severed once the extension to Battersea opened, so was there a later change of heart or was this erroneous information in Modern Railways ? If the latter, very unusual.
 
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D365

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… and with a modern signalling and control system there seems to be confidence in reverting to something a little more ambitious - watch this space, some features from the past may reappear soon!
All dependent on how many 95TS trains are available, of course. Given the need to serve the extension, and a higher frequency across the two ”cores”.
 

Sad Sprinter

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The reason why is the same as why Mill Hill East has had a shuttle for the last decade or more. That is, that in the 2000s the Northern Line was very unreliable for a number of reasons, and the timetable in use at the time was too complex to allow the line to recover easily from disruptions. The timetable was looked at by the same forensic mind who devised the "extended circle", and various features were built in which made the service simpler and easier to recover. These features were all off-peak CX trains terminating at Kennington, Mill Hill shuttle, morning peak northbound services segregated at Camden, slightly reduced frequency, and a few other features which escape my memory. Combined with some attention to the infrastructure, this turned the service from very unreliable to highly dependable. Fast forward a decade and a half, and some of the reliability issues which existed at the time are less of an issue, and with a modern signalling and control system there seems to be confidence in reverting to something a little more ambitious - watch this space, some features from the past may reappear soon!

So direct Morden to CHX services might reappear do you think?
 

Julia

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Trains from the Charing cross branch can go round the Kennington loop and head north, no need to remove passengers, if they don't get off the so be it. trains from bank would have to tip out and have staff check they were empty and reverse via the Kennington siding, this is unsustainable with the current service levels, regardless of the fact that one difficult sleeper who will not leave the train would end up with a service suspension.

The reason they have to be tipped out is because the driver has to walk through the train when reversing via the siding but can stay in the cab when going round the loop.

If you're travelling, say, Waterloo - Borough, is it quicker to go around the loop to get the cross-platform change on the way north?
 

Dstock7080

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If you're travelling, say, Waterloo - Borough, is it quicker to go around the loop to get the cross-platform change on the way north?
Trains are currently scheduled 6½ mins to traverse the loop, southbound>northbound
 

MikeWh

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If you're travelling, say, Waterloo - Borough, is it quicker to go around the loop to get the cross-platform change on the way north?
I'd suggest Waterloo to London Bridge (Jubilee) then Northern, or Waterloo to Elephant & Castle (Bakerloo) then Northen would both be quicker than travel via Kennington, with or without the loop.
 

Mikey C

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The 95 stock is a good and reliable train (my avatar gives that away!) but I do worry how stretched the fleet will be, with the Battersea extension and the massive number of flats being built on the route at places like Colindale

By 2035 they and the Jubilee will be the oldest trains on the network too
 

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