Northern 'names and shames' schools with high numbers of fare dodging pupils

[TUC]

The BBC News website has an article regrding Northern 'naming and shaming' schools with high numbers of fare dodging pupils.

Of course, absolutely passengers should always have a valid ticket, but it is still disappointing that the BBC just accepted Northern's lazy statement that 'conductors cannot always carry out a full ticket inspection '.

No, it isn't always possible, but it is remarkable how some staff mange to do a full check far more often than others, and how some TOCs manage to do full checks far more often than Northern do.

Northern rail 'names and shames' schools over fare-dodging pupils​

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-62178601

A train operator has "named and shamed" several schools for allegedly having large numbers of fare-dodging pupils.
Northern published a "top five" list, saying fare evasion mainly involved students travelling between rural and suburban stations without barriers.

It said "conductors cannot always carry out a full ticket inspection, which emboldens students to 'risk it'".
Honley High School in West Yorkshire, which is on the list, said it was "disappointed" by Northern's actions.
The other schools on the list were Rainhill High School in Merseyside, Wade Deacon High School and Wilmslow High School in Cheshire, and Turton School in Bolton.

A spokeswoman for Honley High School said: "We do not appear to have any records that indicate that Northern has contacted the school to raise a concern regarding children failing to pay to travel."
She added the school was "disappointed by the stance taken by Northern to name and shame" but would be "happy to work with Northern to address any concerns that they might have, should a representative contact us".

The operator issued the list in a campaign to promote discounted educational season tickets for the start of the school year in September.

Mark Powles, Northern's commercial and customer director, said his company was "urging parents from September not to give their child money with the hope they will buy a ticket, but to save money by ensuring their child has a ticket by buying it for a cheaper rate in advance".
He added: "Everyone has a responsibility to buy a ticket before they travel. Unfortunately, some students think that rule doesn't apply to them - and routinely fare evade on our services."

Mr Powles added that it was "important they know that fare evading is a criminal act and, in the future, they could end up with a criminal record".

Wilmslow High School said it "regularly promoted" the educational season tickets and that it would work with Northern to tackle fare evasion.

The BBC has contacted the other three schools for a response.

Northern said it was deploying staff to conduct ticket checks.

 

[alistairlees]

The BBC News website has an article regrding Northern 'naming and shaming' schools with high numbers of fare dodging pupils.

Of course, absolutely passengers should always have a valid ticket, but it is still disappointing that the BBC just accepted Northern's lazy statement that 'conductors cannot always carry out a full ticket inspection '.

No, it isn't always possible, but it is remarkable how some staff mange to do a full check far more often than others, and how some TOCs manage to do full checks far more often than Northern do.

Northern rail 'names and shames' schools over fare-dodging pupils​

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-62178601
A train operator has "named and shamed" several schools for allegedly having large numbers of fare-dodging pupils.
Northern published a "top five" list, saying fare evasion mainly involved students travelling between rural and suburban stations without barriers.

It said "conductors cannot always carry out a full ticket inspection, which emboldens students to 'risk it'".
Honley High School in West Yorkshire, which is on the list, said it was "disappointed" by Northern's actions.
The other schools on the list were Rainhill High School in Merseyside, Wade Deacon High School and Wilmslow High School in Cheshire, and Turton School in Bolton.

A spokeswoman for Honley High School said: "We do not appear to have any records that indicate that Northern has contacted the school to raise a concern regarding children failing to pay to travel."
She added the school was "disappointed by the stance taken by Northern to name and shame" but would be "happy to work with Northern to address any concerns that they might have, should a representative contact us".

The operator issued the list in a campaign to promote discounted educational season tickets for the start of the school year in September.

Mark Powles, Northern's commercial and customer director, said his company was "urging parents from September not to give their child money with the hope they will buy a ticket, but to save money by ensuring their child has a ticket by buying it for a cheaper rate in advance".
He added: "Everyone has a responsibility to buy a ticket before they travel. Unfortunately, some students think that rule doesn't apply to them - and routinely fare evade on our services."

Mr Powles added that it was "important they know that fare evading is a criminal act and, in the future, they could end up with a criminal record".

Wilmslow High School said it "regularly promoted" the educational season tickets and that it would work with Northern to tackle fare evasion.

The BBC has contacted the other three schools for a response.

Northern said it was deploying staff to conduct ticket checks.

I thought it was disappointing that Honley High School was 'disappointed' with Northern, rather than with its own pupils who are, apparently, not buying tickets to travel on the train.

 

[rg177]

Having been on a train through Honley recently, it is impossible for a conductor to do a check as so many run off to the front and get off at Berry Brow.

The conductor I had was keen to say the least, and managed five ticket sales. Honley needs a revenue block more than anything and the conductor said the same.

 

[skyhigh]

No, it isn't always possible, but it is remarkable how some staff mange to do a full check far more often than others, and how some TOCs manage to do full checks far more often than Northern do.

Ah, another classic Northern bash. In my experience conductors on Northern are far more visible than some other companies...

 

[Watershed]

How utterly unprofessional and counterproductive on Northern's part. What do they hope to achieve by "naming and shaming" certain schools, rather than working with them? They're certainly not going to be building up any sort of good relationship through this sort of nonsense.

 

[geoffk]

A similar situation at Calder High School, Mytholmroyd - I've been on the afternoon school time train and most pupils get off at Hebden Bridge, a three minute trip, so almost impossible to collect all the fares. Many of the students make a bee-line for the front vestibule of the train.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Naming and shaming the schools without prior contact does seem to be a tactical error: wouldn't it be better to get the schools' support for paying the right fare (letters from the headteacher to all parents, a stall at the school selling seasons in the first week of term, etc.)?

And since
- the offending kids all seem to know where to go on the train to avoid the usual staff, and
- presumably it's easy to predict which train the kids will use

this strikes me to be an easy one to manage: day 1 of term - all the kids rush to the front vestibule which turns out to be full of revenue protection staff. Names and addresses are taken.... Repeat at random but frequent intervals until fare evasion reduced to an acceptable level.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Having been on a train through Honley recently, it is impossible for a conductor to do a check as so many run off to the front and get off at Berry Brow.

The conductor I had was keen to say the least, and managed five ticket sales. Honley needs a revenue block more than anything and the conductor said the same.

They're a bit young for that, but at least they're being extra responsible!

Joking aside, on the Penistone line the kids know what they can get away with- they know a guard won't even have time to get details if they're caught fare-skipping because of the single line. Northern should probably have consulted with the schools before going to the press to "name and shame", but in terms of enforcement there's not much Northern can do due the kids being, well, kids. Outside of billing the parents there's few legal options, and I'm not sure even that is technically legal either.

Perhaps West Yorkshire can borrow a few of the notorious Manchester Rent-a-thug squad, just to put the frighteners on the spoilt brats a bit?

 

[John Luxton]

How utterly unprofessional and counterproductive on Northern's part. What do they hope to achieve by "naming and shaming" certain schools, rather than working with them? They're certainly not going to be building up any sort of good relationship through this sort of nonsense.

I would disagree with that.

Naming and shaming schools works wonders - Ofsted do it all the time and are often criticized by some for it.

The last thing a school wants is naming and shaming.

If Ofsted see schools named and shamed in the media for significant fare evasion that will start to ring alarm bills concerning school discipline.

After 34 years of teaching most of it under the Ofsted inspection regime I can tell you now that the last thing any school wants is too much scrutiny from Ofsted!

Wearing my other hat as a railway enthusiast I would say that Northern are doing the right thing.

 

[greatkingrat]

How utterly unprofessional and counterproductive on Northern's part. What do they hope to achieve by "naming and shaming" certain schools, rather than working with them? They're certainly not going to be building up any sort of good relationship through this sort of nonsense.

I think it is more aimed at the parents, who might start asking questions about whether the money they give their children is being spent on train fares or sweets.

 

[urbophile]

Is there any eligibility to free travel for school students these days? When I were a lad I had a free bus pass for the four mile journey to and from school. A daily train or bus fare is another burden for families on top of meals and uniforms. If kids are expected to pay a cash fare for each journey no wonder they prefer to dodge it and save the money. Why aren't train companies liaising with schools to provide term-time travel passes? Why doesn't the government (silly question of course) fund the cost of commuting to school?

 

[philthetube]

free transport for pupils living over 3 miles from school, 2 miles for juniors

 

[AlterEgo]

I thought it was disappointing that Honley High School was 'disappointed' with Northern, rather than with its own pupils who are, apparently, not buying tickets to travel on the train.

Well, they've every right to be, given Northern didn't apparently contact them to allow them to address the issue first before shaming them.

 

[John Luxton]

Is there any eligibility to free travel for school students these days? When I were a lad I had a free bus pass for the four mile journey to and from school. A daily train or bus fare is another burden for families on top of meals and uniforms. If kids are expected to pay a cash fare for each journey no wonder they prefer to dodge it and save the money. Why aren't train companies liaising with schools to provide term-time travel passes? Why doesn't the government (silly question of course) fund the cost of commuting to school?

Everyone appears to want everything for free or subsidised by the state. Someone has to pick up the tab.

If people do not want to make some contribution to their children's education the answer is simple avoid having children.

Children are a financial commitment and an expensive one at that it is no good going on about it being a burden.

 

[jupiter]

That's bonkers, short-term, unprofessional (lack of) thinking on Northern's part. Like many H&S bods, they don't seem to have understood the concepts of momentum and inertia. That's a big ol' train trundling down the tracks, you don't slow it down, stop it and reverse its direction with one newspaper article. That's a three to five year project to change attitudes and encourage responsible behaviour and for that you are much better off with the cooperation of the school, parents and community.

 

[skyhigh]

Well, they've every right to be, given Northern didn't apparently contact them to allow them to address the issue first before shaming them.

From what I've heard Northern tried but never heard anything back. They do have people who liase with schools, and they do joint work with other schools so I'd find it a little odd that they didn't bother contacting this one at all.

 

[_toommm_]

free transport for pupils living over 3 miles from school, 2 miles for juniors

Is it still using the caveat that you go to the catchment school for that area? Even with my free bus pass to/from school, public transport operators, particularly First, often said that I could only use it on the dedicated school bus, even though I could use it to get any way I wanted.

 

[Starmill]

I thought it was disappointing that Honley High School was 'disappointed' with Northern, rather than with its own pupils who are, apparently, not buying tickets to travel on the train.

Did Northern write to the school in advance to discuss the issues with them in private, before going to the press in an attempt to publicly shame them?

If I were in a school leadership role and they'd put this sort of release out before attempting to engage with me, I'd be disappointed too. And probably refuse to meet with them or consider their request to put communications out to parents.

I don't get it personally because parents would be vastly more likely to see and actually read communications in school newsletters or on school media than they would directly from Northern or via a local paper.

I would disagree with that.

Naming and shaming schools works wonders - Ofsted do it all the time and are often criticized by some for it.

The last thing a school wants is naming and shaming.

If Ofsted see schools named and shamed in the media for significant fare evasion that will start to ring alarm bills concerning school discipline.

After 34 years of teaching most of it under the Ofsted inspection regime I can tell you now that the last thing any school wants is too much scrutiny from Ofsted!

Wearing my other hat as a railway enthusiast I would say that Northern are doing the right thing.

The school has no statutory duties towards the railway company. If you bad mouth the school in public they can just say we're not engaging over this, you can sort it out in whatever way you see fit. Ofsted is a different matter.

Outside of billing the parents there's few legal options, and I'm not sure even that is technically legal either.

It is very unlikely that any debt would be recoverable from either the child or their parent, even if correct name and address were obtained.

 

[ainsworth74]

Ah, another classic Northern bash. In my experience conductors on Northern are far more visible than some other companies...

I was thinking that. Northerns conductors, at least in the North East, are a very visible presence majority of journeys I do Monday to Friday will be gripped both ways.

 

[John Luxton]

The school has no statutory duties towards the railway company. If you bad mouth the school in public they can just say we're not engaging over this, you can sort it out in whatever way you see fit. Ofsted is a different matter.

Ofsted often take not about complaints about schools. I would not say Northern are bad mouthing at all.

 

[TUC]

I was thinking that. Northerns conductors, at least in the North East, are a very visible presence majority of journeys I do Monday to Friday will be gripped both ways.

In Yorkshire they do seem to do a curious disappearing act after around 2000.

 

[northwichcat]

I thought it was disappointing that Honley High School was 'disappointed' with Northern, rather than with its own pupils who are, apparently, not buying tickets to travel on the train.

The member of school staff the BBC spoke to said Northern had not contacted them regarding any issues.

If a passenger has an issue with a guard or driver should that member of staff be named and shamed on the BBC News site, without Northern being asked to address the concern first?

 

[bluenoxid]

Finding this kerfuffle very interesting.

How many times do schools write out letters about parents “parking”

I don’t think Northern really give a flying stuff about this. Any news is good publicity ahead of the inevitable crackdown that is coming. I expect a flurry of “concernedformylittleangelofHonley” with stories about a Northern Railway station block appearing very soon in the Fares and Disputes board alongside sad face newspaper stories in October.

Now would be a good time for schools to pick up the phone to Northern to set out a good deal for season tickets at the start of the new school year, with a lovely deal that reflects the increasing cost of living.

 

[johntea]

How exactly have Northern compiled the data to support their 'hit list'?

If the 'conductors cannot always carry out a full ticket inspection' then for all they know many of the students may be carrying around these education season tickets (presumably smart cards these days) in their back pocket but they never get checked

Slighty blurred lines anyway, Northern just run a rail service regardless of if someone is travelling for a day out, to work or to school, it seems more a responsibility of the parents to sort ticketing issues out rather than the actual schools

 

[AlterEgo]

How exactly have Northern compiled the data to support their 'hit list'?

If the 'conductors cannot always carry out a full ticket inspection' then for all they know many of the students may be carrying around these education season tickets (presumably smart cards these days) in their back pocket but they never get checked

Slighty blurred lines anyway, Northern just run a rail service regardless of if someone is travelling for a day out, to work or to school, it seems more a responsibility of the parents to sort ticketing issues out rather than the actual schools

They just note the uniforms, surely?

 

[WesternLancer]

I would think parents must be complicit in this, or am I misunderstanding things? If child needs to use train to get to and from school cheapest method is surely a season ticket. If parents are not buying seasons for their children they are paying more for travel - but probably know child often travels without paying so in fact it costs them less and they are not that bothered.

I went to school by train and had a season ticket.

If school attendance dropped due to many kids being summoned to magistrates courts during the school day for fare evasion OFSTED absence type stats/targets would not look so good! (BTW I know this is not going to happen in realty)

The wider issue is that we can see fare avoidance is endemic with many people (I wasn't asked to pay so i won't bother to pay) which then crops up post 18 years of age on this forum with people who carry on thinking in that way.

 

[Wolfie]

I thought it was disappointing that Honley High School was 'disappointed' with Northern, rather than with its own pupils who are, apparently, not buying tickets to travel on the train.

Since when are schools responsible for the behaviour of pupils outside of school time? How about Northern get their own house in order rather than smear other organisations which are almost certainly much better at performing their roles correctly (it wouldn't be hard!). Given the avariciousness and incompetence of TOCs generally l would suggest that they should collectively be ashamed and keep their mouths firmly closed.

 

[AlterEgo]

I would think parents must be complicit in this, or am I misunderstanding things? If child needs to use train to get to and from school cheapest method is surely a season ticket. If parents are not buying seasons for their children they are paying more for travel - but probably know child often travels without paying so in fact it costs them less and they are not that bothered.

As the messaging from Northern implies, the parents are perhaps giving their kids money for a season ticket instead of buying it themselves and giving the ticket to them.

Shortly after my 16th birthday, I paid for a whole autumn term bus season ticket at child rate when my other had given me an adult rate in cash, and pocketed the difference!

 

[Wolfie]

I thought it was disappointing that Honley High School was 'disappointed' with Northern, rather than with its own pupils who are, apparently, not buying tickets to travel on the train.

Rubbish!

Well, they've every right to be, given Northern didn't apparently contact them to allow them to address the issue first before shaming them.

Agreed.

Did Northern write to the school in advance to discuss the issues with them in private, before going to the press in an attempt to publicly shame them?

If I were in a school leadership role and they'd put this sort of release out before attempting to engage with me, I'd be disappointed too. And probably refuse to meet with them or consider their request to put communications out to parents.

I don't get it personally because parents would be vastly more likely to see and actually read communications in school newsletters or on school media than they would directly from Northern or via a local paper.


The school has no statutory duties towards the railway company. If you bad mouth the school in public they can just say we're not engaging over this, you can sort it out in whatever way you see fit. Ofsted is a different matter.


It is very unlikely that any debt would be recoverable from either the child or their parent, even if correct name and address were obtained.

A comprehensive response.

Ofsted often take not about complaints about schools. I would not say Northern are bad mouthing at all.

If Ofsted take notice of spurious comments they can and do face legal action.

The member of school staff the BBC spoke to said Northern had not contacted them regarding any issues.

If a passenger has an issue with a guard or driver should that member of staff be named and shamed on the BBC News site, without Northern being asked to address the concern first?

Absolutely. Sauce for the goose and all of that....

 

[John Luxton]

Since when are schools responsible for the behaviour of pupils outside of school time? How about Northern get their own house in order rather than smear other organisations which are almost certainly much better at performing their roles correctly (it wouldn't be hard!). Given the avariciousness and incompetence of TOCs generally l would suggest that they should collectively be ashamed and keep their mouths firmly closed.

Some schools do exert influence over pupils out of school time.

Those schools are the ones with high standards which often feature each September when little Jimmy or Jemima get sent home for not conforming to uniform standards and teh sad face reports start appearing in the local rags and sometimes make to national newspapers as well.

During my 60/70s school days there were many things you could not do. It is all about discipline. No bad thing really helps children when they transition to the work place. There are many jobs that take note of what goes on outside of the workplace in terms of standards of behaviour and criminal records. Just think of the anxiety caused by someone who is caught fare dodging and doesn't want their employer to know.