Northern Penalty Fare Notice

[Jimbo789]

Good evening all,

My 16 year old son was issued with PFN last week whilst on the train. He was travelling from Marple to Manchester. The ticket office (At Marple station) was closed so presumed he could purchase a ticket on the train. This wasn’t allowed.

Is this worth appealing or should we just pay the reduced fine of £55 ?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Llanigraham]

Were there other ticket purchasing facilities available for him to use?
If yes, was there a reason he didn't use them?

 

[AlterEgo]

Is there a reason he didn’t use the ticket office at Marple?

 

[Llanigraham]

Is there a reason he didn’t use the ticket office at Marple?

OP says the Office was closed.

 

[Watershed]

Could he have used the ticket machine(s) instead? If these were working and accepted the method of payment your son intended to use, then in principle this was a valid circumstance in which to issue a Penalty Fare.

That being said, there are a few things to bear in mind. Firstly, many Penalty Fares are liable to be appealed on the basis that the warning signage doesn't comply with the requirements under the Penalty Fares Regulations. Signage must be prominently placed at every entrance to a station and must have certain required wording. Obviously, most people won't read it but it if it isn't there, Penalty Fares can't be charged. So that would be one potential ground of appeal you could use - it's worth noting that it's down to the operator that issued the Penalty Fare (either Northern or TPE, I'm guessing?) to disprove any allegation you make, not the other way around.

Furthermore, as your son is only 16, Northern/TPE would have difficulty pursuing a Penalty Fare in the civil courts. Once you bring a first-stage appeal (there are three stages of appeal) and that appeal is decided, they are no longer allowed to prosecute in the criminal courts in relation to that particular incident. Therefore, whilst I would not necessarily recommend it, you do have to consider what options they have if you simply don't pay.

Obviously you may just decide that paying £55 is the easiest option in the circumstances. It's also worth noting that tickets can be bought online or on many different apps and are available as e-tickets that can be shown on any digital device or printed off. So unless your son intended to use cash or another method of payment that's only accepted at a ticket office, he could likely have bought his ticket that way. There's no compulsion to use such methods instead of facilities available at the station, but if the train is about to leave and there's a queue at the ticket machine(s), it's one option that's available.

 

[AlterEgo]

OP says the Office was closed.

My fault - meant the machine!

 

[Jimbo789]

Wow thanks for all the quick replies. I’ve just spoken to him again and the ticket office was open but there was nobody around. The ticket machine apparently is card only and his only method of payment was cash.

 

[furlong]

Have a tough conversation to become absolutely certain this isn't just a hopeful excuse. How long did your son wait to be served? Once you're sure you'll need to appeal on those grounds, that there were no facilities available because there was nobody serving at the ticket office. They'll have three ways to check that - speaking to the person/people on duty, timestamps of usage on the ticket office's ticket issuing machine to show it wasn't used at that time and CCTV. (There's supposed to also be a message logged that the Penalty Fare issuing staff would check when a claim like this is made, but clearly that didn't happen here.)

But be aware that there's another not very well known rule that you have to be prepared to wait up to 3 minutes to be served at off-peak times and 5-minutes at peak times. Peak and off-peak times are defined station-by-station and should be displayed on a notice at the station - sometimes buried within a general station information poster, and sometimes in small print on a tiny notice by the ticket window itself. So if he waited less than 3 or 5 minutes (whichever it is) then they may still have a legitimate claim that facilities were available and not used.

 

[Watershed]

Wow thanks for all the quick replies. I’ve just spoken to him again and the ticket office was open but there was nobody around. The ticket machine apparently is card only and his only method of payment was cash.

If the ticket office should normally have been open at that time, but wasn't selling tickets for whatever reason, then that does change things.

Northern have introduced a Promise to Pay Notice scheme, whereby they want anyone who wants to pay by cash to obtain such a Notice from the ticket machine before boarding, to prove where they started and that they had an intention to pay.

Whilst there are certain circumstances where it might be advisable to obtain such a Notice, I understand that the function is disabled on ticket machines during times when a station ticket office is scheduled to be open.

In any event, as you would usually be able to pay by cash at the ticket office, this is one of the situations where the Regulations do specifically states that Penalty Fares can't be issued.

In the circumstances I'd definitely appeal. Feel free to draft an appeal and we can provide feedback before you send it off.

 

[Jimbo789]

Thanks for the very helpful replies. Will draft an appeal over the weekend.

Good evening all,

Here’s my appeal.

Subject: Penalty Charge Notice

Ref:

Date:



Dear Sir/Madam



I write to you in respect of the above Penalty Charge Notice issued to my Son for not having a valid ticket.



I wish to appeal it for the following reasons.



*At Marple station there were no visible members of staff at the ticket office, even though he waited patiently for a few minutes.



*Cash was the only means of payment. So was unable to use the self service ticket machine.



At this point he presumed he would be able to purchase a ticket on the train. He was told this would not be possible and was issued a Penalty Fare Notice.



I do feel this is unfair. He had every intention of purchasing a ticket, but as I’ve outlined above he was prevented from doing so.



Therefore I kindly ask for the Penalty Fare Notice to be cancelled.



Yours Faithfully

 

[trek]

The ticket office (At Marple station) was closed so presumed he could purchase a ticket on the train. This wasn’t allowed.

For future reference almost all Northern conductors carry ticket issuing equipment but do not issue penalty fares, so will sell you a ticket (usually they come through to check and sell tickets, but they cannot always access all coaches of a train, for example). If there is a problem getting a ticket at the station for any reason, when you should be able to do so (eg TVM issues), immediately approaching the conductor to buy a ticket would be a wise move and avoids ambiguity and stress in situations such as these where it may be difficult to prove the ticket office was unstaffed and an adequate amount of time was left for the staff to return/queue to move.

The penalty fare notice was likely issued either by a revenue check done on board, or I suspect on arrival at Manchester (as is often done).

This doesn't really change the situation mentioned here given the facts you have presented, but I will leave others give advice on your proposed response who are more experienced than myself.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks for the very helpful replies. Will draft an appeal over the weekend.

Good evening all,

Here’s my appeal.

Subject: Penalty Charge Notice

Ref:

Date:



Dear Sir/Madam



I write to you in respect of the above Penalty Charge Notice issued to my Son for not having a valid ticket.



I wish to appeal it for the following reasons.



*At Marple station there were no visible members of staff at the ticket office, even though he waited patiently for a few minutes.



*Cash was the only means of payment. So was unable to use the self service ticket machine.



At this point he presumed he would be able to purchase a ticket on the train. He was told this would not be possible and was issued a Penalty Fare Notice.



I do feel this is unfair. He had every intention of purchasing a ticket, but as I’ve outlined above he was prevented from doing so.



Therefore I kindly ask for the Penalty Fare Notice to be cancelled.



Yours Faithfully

My comment on your draft
this line:
At this point he presumed he would be able to purchase a ticket on the train. He was told this would not be possible and was issued a Penalty Fare Notice.

- Make it clear who told him this, and where they told him (was it on train staff, station staff at arrival barrier etc). Add this in

- If you are writing on behalf of your son you will need a signed authority to write on their behalf, unless they are child, in which case state their age in your letter so the recipient knows they are dealing with a parent entitled to write on behalf of their child (I assume this counts in your case as son under 18 years of age). Add this in.

- I'd beef up / emphasize more strongly the bit about son intending to pay their fare in cash and had no ability to do so at the station due to absence of staff at the ticket window despite son waiting a reasonable period of time for staff to appear and sell a ticket.

end up eg 'the basis of this appeal is that my son was prevented from buying a ticket using cash, his only available payment method, and then wrongly penalized with a Penalty Fare as a consequence. I believe that he should have been entitled to pay by cash and submit this appeal on this basis' - or some such wording.

 

[AdamWW]

For future reference almost all Northern conductors carry ticket issuing equipment but do not issue penalty fares, so will sell you a ticket (usually they come through to check and sell tickets, but they cannot always access all coaches of a train, for example). If there is a problem getting a ticket at the station for any reason, when you should be able to do so (eg TVM issues), immediately approaching the conductor to buy a ticket would be a wise move and avoids ambiguity and stress in situations such as these where it may be difficult to prove the ticket office was unstaffed and an adequate amount of time was left for the staff to return/queue to move.

And indeed I've seen signs at a Northern station saying that you must approach the guard immediately if boarding without a ticket should you be unable to use a TVM.

I do not know what gives them (or they think gives them) the authority to require this though because I can't find anything in the conditions of travel saying that it's a requirement and I do not see what grounds they would have to penalise someone who sits down and waits for the guard to be free to sell them a ticket.

 

[skyhigh]

And indeed I've seen signs at a Northern station saying that you must approach the guard immediately if boarding without a ticket should you be unable to use a TVM.

Can't say I've ever seen those. Where were they?

 

[AdamWW]

Leeds area, I think.

 

[trek]

I do not know what gives them (or they think gives them) the authority to require this though because I can't find anything in the conditions of travel saying that it's a requirement and I do not see what grounds they would have to penalise someone who sits down and waits for the guard to be free to sell them a ticket.

I'm not suggesting it would be required in all cases, or even this one, but in situations like this where it can be very difficult to prove the ticket issuing facility was not available doing so would have avoided the whole situation in its entirety.

 

[AdamWW]

I'm not suggesting it would be required in all cases, or even this one, but in situations like this where it can be very difficult to prove the ticket issuing facility was not available doing so would have avoided the whole situation in its entirety.

I agree completely - I meant to add that it is often a very good idea to approach the guard even if there is no actual requirement to do so (and even though some guards can be a bit rude if you do that rather than waiting until they are ready to sell tickets).

 

[Jimbo789]

My comment on your draft
this line:
At this point he presumed he would be able to purchase a ticket on the train. He was told this would not be possible and was issued a Penalty Fare Notice.

- Make it clear who told him this, and where they told him (was it on train staff, station staff at arrival barrier etc). Add this in

- If you are writing on behalf of your son you will need a signed authority to write on their behalf, unless they are child, in which case state their age in your letter so the recipient knows they are dealing with a parent entitled to write on behalf of their child (I assume this counts in your case as son under 18 years of age). Add this in.

- I'd beef up / emphasize more strongly the bit about son intending to pay their fare in cash and had no ability to do so at the station due to absence of staff at the ticket window despite son waiting a reasonable period of time for staff to appear and sell a ticket.

end up eg 'the basis of this appeal is that my son was prevented from buying a ticket using cash, his only available payment method, and then wrongly penalized with a Penalty Fare as a consequence. I believe that he should have been entitled to pay by cash and submit this appeal on this basis' - or some such wording.

Thanks for the suggestions. Is it better to send an actual letter or submit the appeal online?

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks for the suggestions. Is it better to send an actual letter or submit the appeal online?

Actually I don't really know - if the letter gives you both options I would think the online method is fine (you could always print a copy of what you submit on line and post it to them as well I guess). But keep it formal in terms of the language, include any ref number in what you send in the body of the text as well as elsewhere if they ask for it, make sure your postal address and your son's name are included too just so they can link it all up.
Good luck with it!

 

[Jimbo789]

Hi All,

Just to update, they replied to my appeal after 2 weeks wanting to know the time my son arrived at the station and the advertised train departure time. I responded over the weekend and I received the verdict today.

I’m pleased to say that the appeal was successful and is now closed!!

I just want to say a big thanks to everyone that responded to this thread

 

[Hadders]

That's a good result, thanks for letting us know.