Northern Penalty Fares

[Killingworth]

The trouble with 3rd/4th hand reports is that the evidence is often suspect.

Allegation is that the 16 year old granddaughter of a friend of mine received a £50 penalty fare recently - which she has paid.

It seems she appealed (and was rightly turned down) on the grounds that she was late for the train and jumped straight on as using the TVM would have meant she missed it. Her claim that she'd done this before and been able to pay aboard was rejected. However she also claimed an older man had boarded at the same time and had been allowed to pay the same guard. The inconsistency has upset her and her family.

Knowing the station and the line many people have been in the habit of 'trying it on' and getting away with it on a regular basis for years. They're of all ages and from all levels of society. I'm pleased that freeloaders are now being tackled. However large numbers are still able to travel with very little chance of being caught due to crowding, reluctance of guards to walk through the train or physical inability to walk through the full train when made up of 2 units without corridor connections. I suspect not a few will continue to play the system until more are caught and have been penalised.

I'd be interested to know if as word gets round more tickets are being sold before boarding, and if many more penalties are being levied to help achieve this.

 

[AlterEgo]

The trouble with 3rd/4th hand reports is that the evidence is often suspect.

Allegation is that the 16 year old granddaughter of a friend of mine received a £50 penalty fare recently - which she has paid.

It seems she appealed (and was rightly turned down) on the grounds that she was late for the train and jumped straight on as using the TVM would have meant she missed it. Her claim that she'd done this before and been able to pay aboard was rejected. However she also claimed an older man had boarded at the same time and had been allowed to pay the same guard. The inconsistency has upset her and her family.

There may be a reason the older person was allowed to purchase on board, such as having a Disabled Railcard and there being no accessible facilities at the origin station.

 

[ainsworth74]

There may be a reason the older person was allowed to purchase on board, such as having a Disabled Railcard and there being no accessible facilities at the origin station.

Could have had a promise to pay as well and therefore been allowed to pay in cash.

 

[Killingworth]

There may be a reason the older person was allowed to purchase on board, such as having a Disabled Railcard and there being no accessible facilities at the origin station.

I gather that wasn't it.

Could have had a promise to pay as well and therefore been allowed to pay in cash.

That's my suspicion, although the story told to me suggested not.

 

[gray1404]

I think the person needs to charge this one to experience. They did not allow enough time to buy a tickets. They should have purchased before boarding by the sounds of it and I've paid the penalty fare so that is the end of the matter.

 

[Hadders]

Allegation is that the 16 year old granddaughter of a friend of mine received a £50 penalty fare recently - which she has paid.

That will stop the matter escalating.

It seems she appealed (and was rightly turned down) on the grounds that she was late for the train and jumped straight on as using the TVM would have meant she missed it. Her claim that she'd done this before and been able to pay aboard was rejected.

A Penalty Fares was the appropriate course of action in this case.

However she also claimed an older man had boarded at the same time and had been allowed to pay the same guard. The inconsistency has upset her and her family.

I can see how this can be frustrating but no-one knows the full facts. There might be a valid reason why the older man was able to purchase onboard. Alternatiovely the guard might have chosen to show discresion to the older man, but was not prepared to show it to your friends granddaughter (rightly or wrongly).

We generally don't like comparison to non-railway situations on this forum but a motorist caught speeding might feel aggrieved because they got were caught but others regularly speeding on the same stretch of road didn't. This doesn't make mean that the motorist who was caught should be let off.

Knowing the station and the line many people have been in the habit of 'trying it on' and getting away with it on a regular basis for years. They're of all ages and from all levels of society. I'm pleased that freeloaders are now being tackled. However large numbers are still able to travel with very little chance of being caught due to crowding, reluctance of guards to walk through the train or physical inability to walk through the full train when made up of 2 units without corridor connections. I suspect not a few will continue to play the system until more are caught and have been penalised.

I think a couple of key things are happening at the moment:

1. The cost of living crisis is meaning more people are avoiding their fares
2. Train companies are catching more people. They are checking more people but also the cost of living crisis means there are more people out there to be caught

It is not possible to check every single ticket on every journey. The key objective for a train company is to maximise their revenbue in a cost effective way. Just because a ticket isn't checked onboard a train doesn't mean it won't be checked when exiting the destination station. Many return tickets are only 10p or £1 more expensive than a single (which is a revenue protection measure) so it might be that a ticket check on the return journey will see the train company collect their revenue.

 

[philthetube]

other passenger could have been a priv holder,

 

[sheff1]

I boarded at Doncaster late one evening - booking office was closed and (at the time) the TVMs did not sell South Yorkshire concession tickets. Upon departure the guard started checking and the young couple opposite asked for singles to Sheffield with Railcard discount. Quite rightly the guard made them pay the full fare. He then turned to me and, again rightly, sold me the SY discounted ticket.

The young couple were up in arms - "Why have you sold him a cheap ticket and not us?" The guard said words to the effect it was none of their business, and could have left it at that, but went on to say the ticket they wanted was on sale at the TVMs whereas the one I was entitled to was not. They were still not particularly happy and probably complained to friends/family that the old bloke had been sold a cheap ticket and they had been charged full fare !

 

[Starmill]

I understand that it can appear to be unfair if you see this happening, but unfortunately everyone really just needs to accept the reality that what other people are charged is between them and the company. By all means criticise the general policy, or argue your specific case if you believe that the policy as it stands isn't being followed, but an individual case with between an unknown third party and the train operator is, to put it bluntly, none of your business. If they want to draw attention to their case, they'll share it voluntarily.

I boarded at Doncaster late one evening - booking office was closed and (at the time) the TVMs did not sell South Yorkshire concession tickets. Upon departure the guard started checking and the young couple opposite asked for singles to Sheffield with Railcard discount. Quite rightly the guard made them pay the full fare. He then turned to me and, again rightly, sold me the SY discounted ticket.

The young couple were up in arms - "Why have you sold him a cheap ticket and not us?" The guard said words to the effect is was none of their business, and could have left it at that, but went on to say the ticket they wanted was on sale at the TVMs whereas the one I was entitled to was not. They were still not particuarly happy and probably complained to friends/family that the old bloke had been sold a cheap ticket and they had been charged full fare !

This is a very good example of why it is usually better to just focus on getting yourself sorted out as necessary, and resist the temptation to interfere in something you're not asked to become involved with.

 

[ModernRailways]

Guards on Northern cannot issue PFNs (possibly different in other areas, but here in NE that’s the case and I believe it’s the same across the board) so it would have to be a member of revenue staff. In this case they will have a reason for doing so, and discretion could have been used - disabled railcard, senior railcard, promise to pay to name the most common.

 

[Killingworth]

Guards on Northern cannot issue PFNs (possibly different in other areas, but here in NE that’s the case and I believe it’s the same across the board) so it would have to be a member of revenue staff. In this case they will have a reason for doing so, and discretion could have been used - disabled railcard, senior railcard, promise to pay to name the most common.

In the case in question it was on a South Manchester based route. The report I heard referred to a guard the young lady has seen again since.

Howwver it now begs the question, if an RPI encounters someone with a promise to pay ticket will they sell them a ticket? That maybe what was happening.

 

[ainsworth74]

Howwver it now begs the question, if an RPI encounters someone with a promise to pay ticket will they sell them a ticket? That maybe what was happening.

Certainly, that's the whole point of the Promise to Pay system. I believe the only time they would issue a PF in that situation is if you proferred a Promise to Pay and then tried to pay with card rather than cash as in that case you should have used the TVM to buy a ticket.

 

[MisterSheeps]

promise to pay

Last few times i needed a Cumbria Round Robin i tried to get a 'promise to pay' from the TVM (Kendal). The machine wanted a destination, No. of passengers, etc, then the button to print the ticket was greyed out (did nothing). I welcome the initiative of Northern to offer Rovers, etc from the TVMs, but passengers should not be penalised for defective machines.