Northern Rail discouraging travel

[CountBishop]

I wonder if the way the likes of Northern Rail behave puts many other people off using the the train / public transport? I have just unsuccessfully appealed against a £20 penalty for a journey from Guiseley to Leeds. I arrived at the station about five minutes early and queued for a ticket at the machine behind a couple of people. The women in front of me couldn't get the machine to offer the fare they were looking for and taking some while, meaning that my train arrived before I could use it. The train was packed, so I couldn't approach a conductor, but as soon as I arrived in Leeds I went to the ticket desk by platform 2. They wouldn't sell me a ticket and referred me to the revenue people who issued a penalty fare notice.

The clunky online appeal process has failed me as they say I could have used the other machine on the station or the ticket office on the other platform (though sadly I have no Tardis), and so I guess I'll need to pay the £20 - though they haven't subtracted the full return fare I paid on my way back (and for which I sent evidence).

What I find most vexing - as someone who has used public transport to commute for most of the last 40 years - is the way this has put me off using the train to head to work now. It is probably cheaper for me to drive, though less 'green', and the door-to-door time similar. It seems Northern and other companies are content to provide a shoddy, irregular service for which they charge heftily and give passengers none of the wiggle room for not 'doing the right thing' they seek for themselves.

 

[londonbridge]

Unfortunately you can only buy on board if there were no facilities available to buy your ticket at your origin station. You must have a ticket before you travel, the fact that queuing to buy one would cause you to miss your train is not a valid excuse for boarding without one, so the penalty fare was issued correctly.

 

[Starmill]

They would expect for you to miss the train and get the next one if you can't get a ticket in time I'm afraid.

Furthermore the Penalty Fare does not cover the return journey so you couldn't offset the value of that against it.

The only avenue open to you is to take the appeal to the next stage.

 

[lyndhurst25]

What I find most vexing - as someone who has used public transport to commute for most of the last 40 years - is the way this has put me off using the train to head to work now. It is probably cheaper for me to drive, though less 'green', and the door-to-door time similar. It seems Northern and other companies are content to provide a shoddy, irregular service for which they charge heftily and give passengers none of the wiggle room for not 'doing the right thing' they seek for themselves.

I agree. I used to suggest taking the train to friends and family wanting to travel, but I am hesitant to do so nowadays. Harsh and inconsistently applied penalties for minor ticketing indiscretions, along with ambiguous rights in the event of disruption, have led me to view train travel as a last resort, especially for those unfamiliar with how things (don't) work.

 

[Kite159]

It doesn't help that the journey planner style TVMs used by Northern (and other companies) can be confusing to use by those not used to them (especially if they are used to the simpler style of TVM which doesn't require a journey to be planned).

In the future, if you have the ability buy the ticket on your phone as an e-ticket if there is a queue at the TVM and you run the risk of having to board without a ticket.

 

[STKKK46]

I think your best bet would have been to have physically approached the guard on the platform and got on by them to allow the purchase of a ticket.

It’s a lesson learned, but one you’ve learned while it’s a £20 fine rather than £100.

 

[yorksrob]

This is one of the reasons why I prefer stations with a manned ticket office.

 

[kermit]

I think your best bet would have been to have physically approached the guard on the platform and got on by them to allow the purchase of a ticket.

It’s a lesson learned, but one you’ve learned while it’s a £20 fine rather than £100.

All he did was catch a blooming train! It shouldn't have been £20, or £100, or £1000. My aunt used to use the train for fairly regular shopping trips back in the 90s. If things then were as they are now, she'd be in jail! The railway withdrew station staff and ticket offices to save money, then after a few decades of not bothering very much, obtained powers to criminalise travelling without a ticket, having invested poorly and patchily in confusing ticket machines. If obtaining and using these powers was justified (moot point), then at minimum there should have been a massive and continuing TV, radio and billboard advertising campaign to ensure people knew and understood that the ground of expectations was shifting under their feet. It's no good parrotting the absolutist (I'll refrain from saying Stalinist. Just.) line about "people should buy tickets before getting on a train", the net result is that as above people are put off rail. Foot-shooting at its finest.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

then after a few decades of not bothering very much, obtained powers to criminalise travelling without a ticket,

This is hardly something new: it’s been an offence since at least the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, so the last 130 or more years.

 

[Iskra]

Buying on your mobile would have solved the problem, and would probably have been quicker. Agree with Northern’s approach on this I’m afraid.

 

[kermit]

This is hardly something new: it’s been an offence since at least the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, so the last 130 or more years.

And there we go again. I have a friend whose 18 year old son went into town on a bus, got drunk, came back and couldn't wait to pee, so went down the side of a building site, not seeing the Police car parked there. The Police officers decided to threaten him with a charge of indecent exposure, with consequent registration as a sex offender. Just because it is possible to use the law in such a disproportionate and stupid way (making society less safe by failing to target sex offender legislation at people who pose a risk, or making society less well off by inhibiting use of public transport), it doesn't mean we have to.

 

[Class800]

Buying on your mobile would have solved the problem, and would probably have been quicker. Agree with Northern’s approach on this I’m afraid.

Their approach is legal and in accordance with current policy. I don't agree with what they did - after all it was because Northern haven't provided enough ticket machines that people can board without excessive queue time that the incident happened. I think they should show more discretion. But there's nothing illegal in what they did. It may discourage people from travel and cause loss of passengers to other transport means.

 

[AlterEgo]

Buying on your mobile would have solved the problem, and would probably have been quicker. Agree with Northern’s approach on this I’m afraid.

Not sure I can say I think Northern are doing a great job with revenue protection! They’re very hostile.

However anyone with the wherewithal to register an account for the sole purpose of complaining about their penalty fare probably has the wherewithal to pay for their ticket on their mobile phone so I can’t say I am hugely sympathetic.

 

[Iskra]

Their approach is legal and in accordance with current policy. I don't agree with what they did - after all it was because Northern haven't provided enough ticket machines that people can board without excessive queue time that the incident happened. I think they should show more discretion. But there's nothing illegal in what they did. It may discourage people from travel and cause loss of passengers to other transport means.

Northern advise arriving at the station 10 minutes before don’t they? So to arrive at half that and then act hard done by in unreasonable in my mind. I don’t see a case for more TVM’s as the vast majority of passengers have their own E-TVM and I suspect TVM use is declining.

If you board without buying a ticket then there’s only one person responsible for that, and I think a £20 surcharge is extremely reasonable for that.

 

[kermit]

Northern advise arriving at the station 10 minutes before don’t they? So to arrive at half that and then act hard done by in unreasonable in my mind. I don’t see a case for more TVM’s as the vast majority of passengers have their own E-TVM and I suspect TVM use is declining.

If you board without buying a ticket then there’s only one person responsible for that, and I think a £20 surcharge is extremely reasonable for that.

Yes, let's run a railway with no passengers, it'll be so much more efficient, and cleaner, and less smelly!! See how we managed to get rid of those pesky parcels services years ago - anything is possible if you try!!

 

[Iskra]

Not sure I can say I think Northern are doing a great job with revenue protection! They’re very hostile.

However anyone with the wherewithal to register an account for the sole purpose of complaining about their penalty fare probably has the wherewithal to pay for their ticket on their mobile phone so I can’t say I am hugely sympathetic.

Generally speaking I don’t agree, I saw a PF issued to someone recently onboard (bought an advance for a different Northern service) and it was done very reasonably. The revenue staff I see at Meadowhall frequently acting as a mobile gateline are all pretty reasonable. However, once I was swarmed by an RPI sting (I had a ticket) and yes it was a bit in your face. They have a tough job to do, and from my observations there are a lot of fraudsters out there so I can understand the pro-active approach. If you don’t like Northern’s approach, the best thing to do is show a valid ticket and they will leave you alone!

 

[yorkie]

I wonder if the way the likes of Northern Rail behave puts many other people off using the the train / public transport? I have just unsuccessfully appealed against a £20 penalty for a journey from Guiseley to Leeds. I arrived at the station about five minutes early and queued for a ticket at the machine behind a couple of people. The women in front of me couldn't get the machine to offer the fare they were looking for and taking some while, meaning that my train arrived before I could use it. The train was packed, so I couldn't approach a conductor, but as soon as I arrived in Leeds I went to the ticket desk by platform 2. They wouldn't sell me a ticket and referred me to the revenue people who issued a penalty fare notice.

The clunky online appeal process has failed me as they say I could have used the other machine on the station or the ticket office on the other platform (though sadly I have no Tardis), and so I guess I'll need to pay the £20 - though they haven't subtracted the full return fare I paid on my way back (and for which I sent evidence).

What I find most vexing - as someone who has used public transport to commute for most of the last 40 years - is the way this has put me off using the train to head to work now. It is probably cheaper for me to drive, though less 'green', and the door-to-door time similar. It seems Northern and other companies are content to provide a shoddy, irregular service for which they charge heftily and give passengers none of the wiggle room for not 'doing the right thing' they seek for themselves.

Yes I think they do aim to put people off; the business will continue to be propped up by taxpayers, while many passengers have no viable alternative but to travel by train.

It's not like any other business; they don't need or want anyone to think highly of the service and they don't mind if many people stop using them as there are enough people who have no choice to justify the continuation of the business.

Northern know they can mistreat people and it largely benefits them as it means people are either deterred from travel, thus reducing overcrowding, or will switch to online payment methods thus saving the company money, or will let a train depart without them if there is a queue for the machines.

It's not like a restaurant who has to treat you well; quite the opposite in fact, and Northern know it.

I will also point out that this section is usually for people to seek advice regarding how to solve a problem, rather than simply to complain about the attitude of a company like Northern (which will never change); when people seek advice, this forum is at its best (and indeed our guidelines prevent people 'sticking the boot in' or being unconstructive) but a thread of this nature isn't really going to achieve anything, I'm afraid. We'll probably close it soon. Is there any advice you'd like to receive on this matter?

Generally speaking I don’t agree, I saw a PF issued to someone recently onboard (bought an advance for a different Northern service) and it was done very reasonably. The revenue staff I see at Meadowhall frequently acting as a mobile gateline are all pretty reasonable. However, once I was swarmed by an RPI sting (I had a ticket) and yes it was a bit in your face. They have a tough job to do, and from my observations there are a lot of fraudsters out there so I can understand the pro-active approach. If you don’t like Northern’s approach, the best thing to do is show a valid ticket and they will leave you alone!

They don't always leave people alone who have valid tickets and they also have been known to mistreat people who have been unable to purchase a ticket.

Only the other day it was reported on this forum that Northern (or staff representing Northern) mistreated someone who had a valid ticket from the Manchester area to Liverpool, and falsely claimed the ticket wasn't valid via Manchester. I wouldn't trust them to have much of an idea of the validity of tickets; their training is woefully inadequate in this area.

In the past they have wrongly harassed and mistreated people at Meadowhall, but I've not heard any recent reports of this.

They are no angels.

Northern advise arriving at the station 10 minutes before don’t they? So to arrive at half that and then act hard done by in unreasonable in my mind. I don’t see a case for more TVM’s as the vast majority of passengers have their own E-TVM and I suspect TVM use is declining.

If you board without buying a ticket then there’s only one person responsible for that, and I think a £20 surcharge is extremely reasonable for that.

I don't think I should arrive 10 minutes before a train; that's a very long time and is unreasonable in my opinion. However we will never have a universal policy on this, nor will we have unanimous agreement on what is or isn't reasonable.

 

[kermit]

"If you are afraid of the wolves, keep out of the woods"...(Joseph Stalin). Or, indeed, off the trains. As many are choosing.

(Sorry Mods! Above point noted!)

 

[tspaul26]

All he did was catch a blooming train!

All he did was catch a blooming train … without buying a ticket first when there were facilities available so to do.

after a few decades of not bothering very much, obtained powers to criminalise travelling without a ticket,

As has been said, this legislation is nothing new.

at minimum there should have been a massive and continuing TV, radio and billboard advertising campaign to ensure people knew and understood that the ground of expectations was shifting

There has been advertising for years explaining that passengers must buy before boarding. There has been no shifting of expectations.

the net result is that as above people are put off rail

I expect the railway won’t miss passengers who don’t or won’t pay very much - the vast majority of people in this situation would not have attempted to pay at all (unless the destination station is barriers).

And there we go again. I have a friend whose 18 year old son went into town on a bus, got drunk, came back and couldn't wait to pee, so went down the side of a building site, not seeing the Police car parked there. The Police officers decided to threaten him with a charge of indecent exposure, with consequent registration as a sex offender. Just because it is possible to use the law in such a disproportionate and stupid way (making society less safe by failing to target sex offender legislation at people who pose a risk, or making society less well off by inhibiting use of public transport), it doesn't mean we have to.

Your friend’s son broke the law, committing multiple criminal offences.

I infer that he was not in fact prosecuted for anything so it rather seems as if a stern talking to by the police would have been an entirely proportionate approach and he has hopefully learnt his lesson and won’t repeat this type of disgusting behaviour.

 

[Iskra]

Yes I think they do aim to put people off; the business will continue to be propped up by taxpayers, while many passengers have no viable alternative but to travel by train.

It's not like any other business; they don't need or want anyone to think highly of the service and they don't mind if many people stop using them as there are enough people who have no choice to justify the continuation of the business.

Northern know they can mistreat people and it largely benefits them as it means people are either deterred from travel, thus reducing overcrowding, or will switch to online payment methods thus saving the company money, or will let a train depart without them if there is a queue for the machines.

It's not like a restaurant who has to treat you well; quite the opposite in fact, and Northern know it.

I will also point out that this section is usually for people to seek advice regarding how to solve a problem, rather than simply to complain about the attitude of a company like Northern (which will never change); when people seek advice, this forum is at its best (and indeed our guidelines prevent people 'sticking the boot in' or being unconstructive) but a thread of this nature isn't really going to achieve anything, I'm afraid. We'll probably close it soon. Is there any advice you'd like to receive on this matter?


They don't always leave people alone who have valid tickets and they also mistreat people who have been unable to purchase a ticket.

Only the other day they mistreated someone who had a valid ticket from the Manchester area to Liverpool, and falsely claimed the ticket wasn't valid via Manchester.

In the past they have wrongly harassed and mistreated people at Meadowhall, but I've not heard any recent reports of this.

They are no angels.

I don’t doubt what you are saying, but I can only report what I see myself, but I accept that I am a fairly confident traveller so my experiences may not always be representative.

 

[yorkie]

I think we are done here; the original thread wasn't a request for advice (which is this forum's main purpose, and what we do best) but just a rant; we've allowed that but the thread has now run its course and we've been dragged off topic, with seemingly nothing new to add regarding the actual topic of the thread, so the thread is now locked.

However we will always consider any reasonable request for any thread to be unlocked to allow an important update; if anyone would like us to consider unlocking the thread, feel free to report the first or last post in this thread with a draft of what you would like to post and we will consider it.