Northern Rail Investigation

[MichaelTrains]

Earlier today my booked Northern train was cancelled and because the trains are hourly I was told by the gate line staff that I could catch the next train or the next one after. Basically a two-hour window of endorsement to catch a later service.

Because I was getting onward connections and the next train was touch and go as to whether I would make my connection (have close to another hour to wait) I opted for the later train (all Northern).

On getting the later train I explained on the platform to the guard and he said no problem after checking my original train was indeed cancelled due to shortage of train crew.

I then was halfway through my journey when two Northern Rail Penalty Fare staff asked to see my ticket.

I explained the above and they got confrontational demanding that I pay a £50 penalty fare.

I refused to pay them and told them to speak to the guard and the Northern gate line staff, who had endorsed me for this train service.

They replied that they are above the guard and gate line staff and still demanded that I pay a £50 penalty fare.

In the end after my rigorous protests, they decided to downgrade my alleged offence to a Northern Rail Investigation.

Someone will no call me in 21 days time asking me to explain myself.

It's incidents like the above that really must people off travelling by train.

I thought the Transport For Wales Gestapo were bad but these two chancers from Northern Rail really did take the proverbial.

 

[30907]

I assume you had an Advsnce ticket, and the train you actually caught was the next available on the same route?

If so, extremely poor!

 

[Haywain]

I assume you had an Advsnce ticket, and the train you actually caught was the next available on the same route?

If so, extremely poor!

The OP has stated that it was the next but one train that they caught.

 

[Hadders]

This is extremely poor by Northern.

My usual advice in these circumstances is to accept a Penalty Fare and appeal it because Northern would then be barred from prosecuting (not that a prosecution would succeed anyway).

When you get the letter from Northern send a polite, but robust response. We will be happy to proof read it for you.

Once the matter is concluded I would then submit a formal complain to Northern and Transport Focus.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

I’ve never heard of this phone call thing before. OP: it would probably be wise to record the call. I believe you’re required by law to tell them you’re doing this, but I’d be surprised if they objected (especially since they may well record it too). I’m sure we’d be interested to hear it if you felt like uploading it, suitably redacted of course.

Honestly though, Northern have excelled themselves lately, even by their standards. This, I presume, is the kind of thing yorkie means when he describes them as a shambles (that may not be the specific term he used…)

 

[MichaelTrains]

This is extremely poor by Northern.

My usual advice in these circumstances is to accept a Penalty Fare and appeal it because Northern would then be barred from prosecuting (not that a prosecution would succeed anyway).

When you get the letter from Northern send a polite, but robust response. We will be happy to proof read it for you.

Once the matter is concluded I would then submit a formal complaint to Northern and Transport Focus.

Thank you for the advice.

I only followed the advice and instructions that were given to me by the Northern gate line staff.

If a train is cancelled is the two-hour window to get the next available services in the rule book?

The Northern Rail Penalty Fare Cowboys even had the audacity to note that I’d taken advantage of the cheap £1 advance fares.

What has the cost of a ticket got to do with anything?

I’ve never heard of this phone call thing before. OP: it would probably be wise to record the call. I believe you’re required by law to tell them you’re doing this, but I’d be surprised if they objected (especially since they may well record it too). I’m sure we’d be interested to hear it if you felt like uploading it, suitably redacted of course.

Honestly though, Northern have excelled themselves lately, even by their standards. This, I presume, is the kind of thing yorkie means when he describes them as a shambles (that may not be the specific term he used…)

That's what they said.

I'll receive a phone call within 21 days were the person who calls me will ask me for an explanation.

Are these penalty fare teams on Northern trains new? I only ask because a frequent train user I’ve never come across these two people before.

My worry is any unsuspecting customer will cave in and pay the £50 penalty fare.

 

[185]

They replied that they are above the guard and gate line staff and still demanded that I pay a £50 penalty fare.

In the end after my rigorous protests, they decided to downgrade my alleged offence to a Northern Rail Investigation.

Someone will no call me in 21 days time asking me to explain myself.

It's incidents like the above that really must people off travelling by train.

That's no downgrade, be careful. An investigation aka TIR / MG11 is a step up from a Penalty Fare.

 

[MichaelTrains]

That's no downgrade, be careful. An investigation aka TIR / MG11 is a step up from a Penalty Fare.

Seriously? For following the gate line and guard advice?

 

[AlterEgo]

Seriously? For following the gate line and guard advice?

An investigation opens you up to criminal prosecution. Do not answer any phone call from them and insist any correspondence is done in writing. Did they take your name and address?

 

[furlong]

If you are certain of your position (i.e. there wasn't some other reason for what happened, where there was a separate unmentioned reason for the ticket not to be valid), I'd suggest you do not delay, but take the initiative and make a formal complaint to the highest level of Northern, asking that relevant CCTV is preserved and staff (including gateline) are identified and interviewed, copying your complaint to the ORR / DfT / your MP with appropriate cover letters, inviting an investigation into a potential breach of their licence conditions and asking for an external review of their policies, training, incentives and internal emails to ascertain whether or not there might have been a systemic criminal breach of the law for which the ORR should consider prosecuting the company. Nothing is liklely to change until enough people kick up enough of a fuss whenever a train company appears to step seriously out of line.

 

[L401CJF]

They replied that they are above the guard and gate line staff and still demanded that I pay a £50 penalty fare.

As a guard (not for Northern), if I've given someone permission to travel on my train then my word is above that of any revenue staff. No idea on Northerns setup, or whether this was proper Northern RPIs or some of the "rent a thug" Carlisle security staff?

Very poor either way. Like you say, this heavy handed approach (combined with Northern and their poorly trained security staff in many cases) are just putting people off travelling. Especially given the poor service on offer recently.

 

[John R]

Are you able to give the precise journey that you intended to make, and the same for the following hour, including the connection that you said was too tight. Reason I ask is if it is less than the minimum connection time then that is a very good reason why you did not take the next available service. (I assume the connection for the journey you did make was longer - if no different then that would undermine your story to a degree).

 

[Titfield]

"Gestapo" "Chancers" "Taking the proverbial" "Cowboys".

If the OP makes a complaint to the TOC and for example his MP as suggested by @furlong surely it would not be wise to use the language used by the OP on this forum?

 

[Hadders]

Just to clarify, I doubt very much you’ll get a call from Northern, it’ll be one of their standards letters asking you to explain yourself and probably offering you an out of court settlement.

Do upload a copy of it on this thread with personal details redacted and we will be happy to assist.

 

[MichaelTrains]

As a guard (not for Northern), if I've given someone permission to travel on my train then my word is above that of any revenue staff. No idea on Northerns setup, or whether this was proper Northern RPIs or some of the "rent a thug" Carlisle security staff?

Very poor either way. Like you say, this heavy handed approach (combined with Northern and their poorly trained security staff in many cases) are just putting people off travelling. Especially given the poor service on offer recently.

I have emailed Northern querying this.

If they say that the guard is the sole authority figure then the two revenue staff have crossed a serious line in trying to extort money from me for no valid reason.

I spoke to the guard of said train on the platform before boarding.

Explained that my first train was cancelled, the next was running late and would mean me missing my onward connection (having to wait at a station for another hour).

Let's see what Northern Rail respond with.

 

[ModernRailways]

The guard is in charge of the train, if they wanted to kick the revenue staff off at the next station then they would technically be within their rights too.
If the guard had authorised you travel, then the revenue staff should have went and spoken to the guard for clarity / you should have refused to provide details until such a point that they did so.

They haven't done you a favour and downgraded, as @185 says this will now be a TIR which is considerably more serious.
You need to get ahead of Northern, make a complaint for the treatment by the revenue staff, clarifying the time and service you boarded/travelled on so the guard can be identified and ideally, questioned.

If this happened on board the train then this would have been Northerns own revenue staff, the Carlisle teams aren't allowed to carry out revenue on board.

 

[Ben Rhydding]

Per Northern website

There is nothing stopping you from catching a different train if your service is cancelled. Just check Northern`s timetable to find an alternative train.

This is the complete quote. There is no qualification that it has to be the immediate next train. There is no restriction as to particular types of ticket. There is no warning that if you follow this advice, you will be harassed by a bunch of ignorant thugs masquerading as ticket inspectors.

You purchase a ticket to travel on a certain train. They breach the contract by cancelling that train. They offer an alternative. You take that up that alternative. Then look what happens.

The "ticket inspectors" are in breach of byelaw 6 (8) and deserve to be prosecuted for their unacceptable behaviour.

 

[MichaelTrains]

The guard is in charge of the train, if they wanted to kick the revenue staff off at the next station then they would technically be within their rights too.
If the guard had authorised you travel, then the revenue staff should have went and spoken to the guard for clarity / you should have refused to provide details until such a point that they did so.

They haven't done you a favour and downgraded, as @185 says this will now be a TIR which is considerably more serious.
You need to get ahead of Northern, make a complaint for the treatment by the revenue staff, clarifying the time and service you boarded/travelled on so the guard can be identified and ideally, questioned.

If this happened on board the train then this would have been Northerns own revenue staff, the Carlisle teams aren't allowed to carry out revenue on board.

They replied that they are above the guard (have more authority) than him.

They definitely said they would call me because he couldn't find my address on his handheld device despite me explaining that on every electronic device be it a laptop or mobile phone, when trying to search my address on a website database it strangely is at the bottom out of numerical sequence.

I'll await this phone call I’m supposed to be getting.

If it doesn't come do I assume this is just another example of Northern trying to bully passengers?

Per Northern website

There is nothing stopping you from catching a different train if your service is cancelled. Just check Northern`s timetable to find an alternative train.

This is the complete quote. There is no qualification that it has to be the immediate next train. There is no restriction as to particular types of ticket. There is no warning that if you follow this advice, you will be harassed by a bunch of ignorant thugs masquerading as ticket inspectors.

You purchase a ticket to travel on a certain train. They breach the contract by cancelling that train. They offer an alternative. You take that up that alternative. Then look what happens.

The "ticket inspectors" are in breach of byelaw 6 (8) and deserve to be prosecuted for their unacceptable behaviour.

Cheers for that bit of information. Appreciate it.

 

[SteveM70]

Earlier today my booked Northern train was cancelled and because the trains are hourly I was told by the gate line staff that I could catch the next train or the next one after. Basically a two-hour window of endorsement to catch a later service.

Because I was getting onward connections and the next train was touch and go as to whether I would make my connection (have close to another hour to wait) I opted for the later train (all Northern).

On getting the later train I explained on the platform to the guard and he said no problem after checking my original train was indeed cancelled due to shortage of train crew.

I then was halfway through my journey when two Northern Rail Penalty Fare staff asked to see my ticket.

I explained the above and they got confrontational demanding that I pay a £50 penalty fare.

I refused to pay them and told them to speak to the guard and the Northern gate line staff, who had endorsed me for this train service.

They replied that they are above the guard and gate line staff and still demanded that I pay a £50 penalty fare.

In the end after my rigorous protests, they decided to downgrade my alleged offence to a Northern Rail Investigation.

Someone will no call me in 21 days time asking me to explain myself.

It's incidents like the above that really must people off travelling by train.

I thought the Transport For Wales Gestapo were bad but these two chancers from Northern Rail really did take the proverbial.

Did these people give you any paperwork?

What personal information did you give them?

 

[Hadders]

Having got the most basic of information wrong about your entitlement to take a later train, it would not surprise me in the slightest if they also got the bit about being called wrong.

I’d be shocked if they do call you. A letter is the likely outcome.

 

[MichaelTrains]

Did these people give you any paperwork?

What personal information did you give them?

Name, tried to give my address but they couldn't find it, so phone number.

He had already scanned my ticket, so said they would track me down off the ticket reference code.

I've only experienced something similar once before and that was with an LNER guard last year who tried to penalty-fare me for using a LNER train after the last Grand Central service was cancelled.

 

[SteveM70]

Name, tried to give my address but they couldn't find it, so phone number.

He had already scanned my ticket, so said they would track me down off the ticket reference code.

I've only experienced something similar once before and that was with an LNER guard last year who tried to penalty-fare me for using a LNER train after the last Grand Central service was cancelled.

Something about this smells not quite right to me, even for Northern’s goon squad. Is it not the correct practice that the customer is always given some sort of receipt / paperwork?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

A letter is the likely outcome.

Is it possible that Northern will realise they've got things wrong, and so the OP won't actually subsequently hear from them?

 

[Sheffcaster202]

I've only experienced something similar once before and that was with an LNER guard last year who tried to penalty-fare me for using a LNER train after the last Grand Central service was cancelled.

LNER don’t issue penalty fares do they?

 

[Hadders]

LNER don’t issue penalty fares do they?

They don’t but I suspect the LNER train manager would’ve wanted to charge an Anytime Single, the cost of which would feel like a Penalty Fare.

 

[Haywain]

They don’t but I suspect the LNER train manager would’ve wanted to charge an Anytime Single, the cost of which would feel like a Penalty Fare.

They might issue an Unpaid Fare Notice.

 

[MichaelTrains]

They might issue an Unpaid Fare Notice.

They might issue an Unpaid Fare Notice.

Yes, my mistake it was one of these on a big paper orange rollout ticket.

There's a thread from that incident in here.

I got legal advice and got the UFN rescinded.

Is it possible that Northern will realise they've got things wrong, and so the OP won't actually subsequently hear from them?

I'll let you know if I hear anything.

Response from Northern.

If the guard of the train service has given you permission before boarding as in this case, then this is at their discretion and above any rail enforcement officers or officials.

 

[robbeech]

As a guard (not for Northern), if I've given someone permission to travel on my train then my word is above that of any revenue staff.

Glad to see a comment from a guard backing up my thoughts on this. The guard says what happens on their train, that’s really all there is to it.

They replied that they are above the guard (have more authority) than him.

They ought to be dismissed on that view alone!


If that is the response from Northern then you’ll be able to use that if anything comes of this. I have a feeling you will hear no more but it likely leaves a bad taste so I recommend a full complaint about their behaviour.

 

[KirkstallOne]

I explained the above and they got confrontational demanding that I pay a £50 penalty fare.

Just on this aspect of their behaviour, were they pressuring you to pay on the spot?

 

[MichaelTrains]

Just on this aspect of their behaviour, were they pressuring you to pay on the spot?

It never went that far as to how to pay.

After scanning my ticket and realising I was on the wrong train before I could even begin to explain my situation one of the two said “we are going to have to penalty you and that is a £50 fine if paid immediately.”

I challenged their behaviour and judgement straight away and said I wouldn't be paying any penalty fare as I have been inconvenienced with my first train being cancelled and then the next one being late (meaning I would miss my onward connection) and that I had permission from both the gate line staff and the guard to travel on this service with the ticket which I had shown them both.

They then said I was still on the wrong train and had only paid £1 for a cheap advance ticket and that I was to pay a penalty fare.

It then escalated from there to them saying someone would call me in 21 days time asking for an explanation.