Northern Rail Investigation

[ModernRailways]

Name, tried to give my address but they couldn't find it, so phone number.

He had already scanned my ticket, so said they would track me down off the ticket reference code.

This will be a TIR. They *should* give you paperwork, but they often won't because they'll do it once they have time to sort it and then just put it through themselves. They'll get whatever information they need immediately from you (in this case, ticket number, name, and contact number) then fill the rest in later on.

They replied that they are above the guard (have more authority) than him.

This is a lie, they do not, they can issue PFNs which a guard on Northern cannot, but that is all, they have no additional authority. The revenue staff can't (shouldn't) go against the guards decision, and the guard can (and this does occasionally happen) refuse revenue staff.
The guard is 'above' the revenue staff - I don't like thinking of me being superior to colleagues but if they're going to start saying they're superior then they'll be reminded privately before it becomes a bigger issue.

Is it possible that Northern will realise they've got things wrong, and so the OP won't actually subsequently hear from them?

Highly unlikely, OP will likely hear from Northern asking for their version of events, the ticket number is how Northern often get peoples details as it's linked to their account.

@MichaelTrains Have you logged a formal complaint regarding the behaviour of the revenue staff?

 

[Sheffcaster202]

Glad to see a comment from a guard backing up my thoughts on this. The guard says what happens on their train, that’s really all there is to it.

I can second this too as a guard, Whenever I have revenue teams on a train (generally I know them anyway) they will come and see me, let me know what they’re doing, ask to join for the trip and do things fairly and consistently, I tend to be out in the train with them anyway and it works really well. I can guarantee the teams I work with would never act in the manner described here, they know and fully understand the guard has full responsibility and in basic terms “what the guard says goes”

After scanning my ticket and realising I was on the wrong train before I could even begin to explain my situation one of the two said “we are going to have to penalty you and that is a £50 fine if paid immediately.”

If you were to have accepted the penalty fare it wouldn’t have been the case of being paid immediately, the T&Cs surround it are £50 plus the value of the ticket if paid within 21 days or £100 plus the value of the ticket in the time after this, you’ve certainly not been informed correctly about this!

 

[MichaelTrains]

This will be a TIR. They *should* give you paperwork, but they often won't because they'll do it once they have time to sort it and then just put it through themselves. They'll get whatever information they need immediately from you (in this case, ticket number, name, and contact number) then fill the rest in later on.


This is a lie, they do not, they can issue PFNs which a guard on Northern cannot, but that is all, they have no additional authority. The revenue staff can't (shouldn't) go against the guards decision, and the guard can (and this does occasionally happen) refuse revenue staff.
The guard is 'above' the revenue staff - I don't like thinking of me being superior to colleagues but if they're going to start saying they're superior then they'll be reminded privately before it becomes a bigger issue.


Highly unlikely, OP will likely hear from Northern asking for their version of events, the ticket number is how Northern often get peoples details as it's linked to their account.

@MichaelTrains Have you logged a formal complaint regarding the behaviour of the revenue staff?

No, I haven't logged a complaint yet.

If you think doing so will help, I will do that later this afternoon.

I've had no phone call yet.

 

[Ben Rhydding]

I think the OP should complain to the Managing Director of Northern. If, but only if, that fails to produce a meaningful response, he should involve his MP.

Byelaw 6 (8) No person shall molest or wilfully interfere with the comfort or convenience of any person on the railway.

Any competent RPI would know that the OP`s ticket was valid. In this case, the RPI doesn`t appear to have disputed the relevant facts. Instead he issued a penalty fare on the grounds (1) that he was more important than the guard and (2) that the OP had availed of a Northern flash sale.

He appears to have escalated from penalty fare to TIR on the grounds that the OP refused to pay £50 and/ or indicated that he would appeal a penalty fare and/ or repeated, with sound reasoning, that his ticket was valid.

The conduct of the RPI was not that of a railway employee going about his business.

Independent of all this, the OP should claim delay repay. This will produce not just a free ticket but evidence from Northern itself that he suffered a delayed journey on a valid ticket.

 

[ModernRailways]

No, I haven't logged a complaint yet.

If you think doing so will help, I will do that later this afternoon.

I've had no phone call yet.

Yes, I would get a formal complaint raised as soon as. I would mention that you would like the guard to be identified and contacted so clarification can be obtained that they authorised travel and for that information to be forwarded on to the DRPU team.
Of course, you won't hear the outcome of any internal investigations, but due to the nature of this case, and the fact you could be facing prosecution, you do expect for Northern to carry out their duties correctly.


It will be a good few weeks, possibly leaning into months before they (DRPU) get round to your case and get the information they need to contact you from Trainline. It's incredibly unlikely they would call you unless they can't gather any more information as to who you are.

 

[MichaelTrains]

Update.

Just had a phone call from a number in York which I presume is where the Northern fare department is based?

Anyway, I’ve given them my version of events and sent a copy of my train tickets to an email address because they didn't have them on the original incident/travel report.

Let's see what they say.

 

[skyhigh]

Just had a phone call from a number in York which I presume is where the Northern fare department is based?

No it's based in Bradford.

 

[Haywain]

No it's based in Bradford.

However, Northern do have significant offices in York.

 

[MichaelTrains]

It was a 01904 number which came up as York.

I've explained what happened and sent my train tickets on the email they provided.

I'll update again when I receive the next update.

They didn't take too kindly to me calling the people who tried to charge me a penalty fare “cowboys” but that is an accurate and factual description of their behaviour.

 

[75A]

They didn't take too kindly to me calling the people who tried to charge me a penalty fare “cowboys” but that is an accurate and factual description of their behaviour.

They had Stetsons & Horses?

 

[John R]

They didn't take too kindly to me calling the people who tried to charge me a penalty fare “cowboys” but that is an accurate and factual description of their behaviour.

I tend to find that keeping things polite and not trying to antagonise those dealing with a query tends to be the most effective way to get a satisfactory resolution.

 

[scrapy]

Most of Northerns numbers from offices on the east side will be 01904 numbers despite the caller's location being possibly in Leeds or Bradford as they route through York. Northerns DRPU in Bradford has an 01904 number so this is likely to be a genuine call.

Similarly numbers on the west side have 0161 numbers even though the office may not be in Manchester.

 

[MichaelTrains]

I tend to find that keeping things polite and not trying to antagonise those dealing with a query tends to be the most effective way to get a satisfactory resolution.

Tend to agree but I was asked to be accurate and factual.

The behaviour was that of cowboys.

Sad to report but completely true.

 

[Ben Rhydding]

Dictionary definition of cowboy (UK informal).

Someone who is dishonest or careless in their trade or business.

Whether it was wise for the OP to use the word is open to question. Whether it was accurate seems hardly in doubt.

"I`m going to make you pay £50 because I`m important". "I`m going to make you pay £50 because you only paid £1 on a Northern flash sale" "I`m ignorant of the conditions of advance tickets. Either that or I`m empowered to over-ride them". "I have never heard of byelaw 18 (3) (iii). Or if I have, it excludes an authorised person less important than me". " I don`t even know how the penalty fare is calculated. I just threaten people with £50".

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Tend to agree but I was asked to be accurate and factual.

The behaviour was that of cowboys.

Sad to report but completely true.

With respect, describing their behaviour as 'cowboys' is a matter of opinion rather than one of fact. So you're not being accurate or factual - you're drawing a conclusion, and by using a rather loaded term you are challenging the railway over whether they should disagree with you (and support their staff) or agree with you (and inherently accept that their staff are cowboys).

You also need to think through what you are trying to achieve: that is to get the railway to go away and stop bothering you. The steer that we generally give is that the best way to do this is to reassure the railway that their suspicions have no foundation. A necessary part of this is being ostentatiously reasonable*. And being ostentatiously reasonable means not using abusive slang - however modest the abuse may be. If you needed to make the point, something like 'it did rather seem to me that the inspectors were overstepping their authority' might have been nearer the mark.

Ultimately, the railway have something you want - the power to stop pursuing you for this and maybe for money. You need to convince them to let go at what they have. For many of us, experience has shown that negotiation is a better strategy than confrontation.


*An example from another part of life: the first time I took my driving test, one of the failure points was not using the rear-view mirror enough. That was because I had been moving my eyes to look in the mirror. When I retook it, I didn't look in the mirror any more than on the first go - but I did ostentatiously move my head across and up so that I could be seen to be checking. That's rather what you need to do in your communications with the railway.

 

[AlterEgo]

Update.

Just had a phone call from a number in York which I presume is where the Northern fare department is based?

Anyway, I’ve given them my version of events and sent a copy of my train tickets to an email address because they didn't have them on the original incident/travel report.

Let's see what they say.

Did you record the call?

It is not to your advantage to give evidence to the company's investigation by phone call.

 

[MichaelTrains]

Did you record the call?

It is not to your advantage to give evidence to the company's investigation by phone call.

No,sadly I didn't record the phone call.

It looks like the person who took my details has made a mess of the incident he's reported to Northern.