Northern Rail not accepting receipt as proof of fare payment on App.

[g0rsq]

Hi
I have found myself here asking for help and advice on behalf of my Wife.
She traveled from St Helens junction to Styal via Piccadilly Manchester.
Due to an error she purchased a ticket from St Helens to Piicadilly, and while at Piccadilly a ticket to Styal, both any time return tickets from Trainline app. on her phone.
So she had tickets for both legs of the journey prior to boarding each train.
Prior to boarding the second train, my wife was asked to show her ticket, but she couldn't find it in the App. but as train was leaving the inspector told her to board, and gave here a piece of paper (I dont know content of this, but my wife thought it meant she could continue her journey, as she had a valid ticket).

She has just received a fixed penalty notice for £100+ticket price siting not paying the correct fare for full journey. Obviously this has something to do with the ticket the inspector issued, which complicates the situation.

We responded to the penalty notice (from DRPU) showing both receipts from Trainline printed from the app. The actual barcoded tickets are no longer visable as have expired.

The DRPU have just responded saying the receipt is not acceptable, and they need sight of the ticket.

There was never a Physical ticket issued, and the electronic version is no longer visible in the app.

How can they not accept a VAT receipt, and insist on seeing an e-ticket that no longer exists?

We can also provide bank statements showing payment.

Any suggestions how we can proceed?

Again my wife had valid tickets for both legs of the journey before boarding each train.

She is very upset with this, as she has always paid rail fares and never had anything like this happen before.

I can pay the fixed notice penalty, but feel we shouldn't have to. Should we fight this, or just give in and save the hassle?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

There was never a Physical ticket issued, and the electronic version is no longer visible in the app.

How can they not accept a VAT receipt, and insist on seeing an e-ticket that no longer exists?

Was the ticket in PDF form not e-mailed to the email account associated with the account?
The PDF attached shows it as an off peak day return which through the Northern app (trainline's systems just a different name) emails me PDFs

 

[Alex365Dash]

The DRPU have just responded saying the receipt is not acceptable, and they need sight of the ticket.

There was never a Physical ticket issued, and the electronic version is no longer visible in the app.

How can they not accept a VAT receipt, and insist on seeing an e-ticket that no longer exists?

Others will come along to offer more advice, but I'd also suggest having a look at the email associated with your Trainline account to see if there's an email with an eTicket attached - unless you had an mTicket rather than an eTicket this should be the case.

 

[Parham Wood]

I would be very annoyed that the inspector told her to board and gave her penalty before she boarded.

 

[Huntergreed]

Welcome to the forum!

We need to know all relevant facts in order to assist you, including, for example:

The stations where you started & finished your journey;

The stations where you changed trains (if applicable);

If you presented a ticket(s), the information stated under “Ticket type”, “From”, “To”, “Route”, and any other relevant details;

What happened in any encounter with railway staff;

Uploading copies of any paperwork (with personal details redacted) with your post.

Be careful not to post anything incriminating or personally identifying

To ensure clarity, can you state the exact ticket you held (in as much detail as you can), or upload a photograph of the ticket?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

To ensure clarity, can you state the exact ticket you held (in as much detail as you can), or upload a photograph of the ticket?

The PDF they attached in their first post shows a Manchester Piccadilly - Styal Off-Peak day return's (£4.85) receipt.

 

[mikeg]

Was there an attachment to the receipt email?

 

[glasgowniteowl]

What was the ticket price paid St Helens to Piccadilly and what type of rail card does she hold?

Also might not be what you want to hear, but northern are quite within their right not to accept a reciept as proof of a ticket being purchased in order to cancel a penalty fare, in fact they wouldn't even need to accept a paper ticket or an e ticket after the fact, the ticket needed to be presented at the time of the ticket inspection not at later date, it could even have been classed as a criminal offence of they really wanted to take it that far depending on where and when tickets were checked etc

Mitigating help may be possible depending on exactly what and where she has been penalty fared for etc

 

[g0rsq]

Thanks for all your kind replies.

I did put as much information in original post as I know.

However I have been reading several other posts here, and it seems clear that the issue is my Wife was unable to show an actual ticket for the travel (despite having it on her phone, just couldnt present it quickly enough).

It seems that this is the offense, not that she didn't pay! Other messages show passengers who lost their paper ticket, having the same issue.

I suspect the "ticket" the inspector gave her would have explained it, and given the opportunity to present the ticket somewhere, but my Wife thought that as she had paid there was no problem.

Just to respond, she has a senior railcard (I think that is what it is called) and the fare from St Helens Junction to Piccadilli was £9.00

She was penalty fared as she boarded the train in Manchester Piccadilly. The inspector was rushing, as she also had several other people to deal with, and train was leaving in next few minuits.

Anyway, as the likelihood was the Penalty notice would not be withdrawn, I have paid the £106 this evening, and it will be a lesson learned. (I will remind my wife on many occasions that she owes me..bigtime

I never thought to check if she received an e-mail. If she did then I have wasted the £105 but the 14 days expires tomorrow.

Still feel cheated, but that is the way life is sometimes.

Thanks again, and sorry for consuming bandwidth here.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Can you not contact Trainline and ask if they can supply a copy of the ticket?

 

[Haywain]

Can you not contact Trainline and ask if they can supply a copy of the ticket?

The offence is failing to provide the ticket on request, so that's not likely to help.

 

[ainsworth74]

Still feel cheated, but that is the way life is sometimes.

Yes I can certainly see why! I would just double check your wife's email to see if she did get a pdf copy of the tickets emailed to her. Those will not be greyed out so if she's got them I would send them to Northern and ask that now that you've been able to find the relevant tickets (which will hopefully show issue times from before she boarded either train) if they'd please refund the penalty that you paid.

Nowt to lose by trying!

Thanks again, and sorry for consuming bandwidth here.

No need to apologise

 

[fandroid]

Anyway, as the likelihood was the Penalty notice would not be withdrawn, I have paid the £106 this evening, and it will be a lesson learned. (I will remind my wife on many occasions that she owes me..bigtime

I never thought to check if she received an e-mail. If she did then I have wasted the £105 but the 14 days expires tomorrow.

Still feel cheated, but that is the way life is sometimes.

Thanks again, and sorry for consuming bandwidth here.

I hope I'm wrong, but I'm fairly sure that if you paid within the 14 days, you should have only paid £56 not £106. I'm assuming that it was an official Penalty Fare Notice and not a bespoke Northern Rail "rip the customer off" facsimile.

 

[Haywain]

I hope I'm wrong, but I'm fairly sure that if you paid within the 14 days, you should have only paid £56 not £106. I'm assuming that it was an official Penalty Fare Notice and not a bespoke Northern Rail "rip the customer off" facsimile.

It sounds like this was a Northern "Fixed Penalty Notice", arriving later in the post, rather than a proper Penalty Fare Notice.

 

[fandroid]

Edit:

I think I'm probably right in my second assumption. I've just read your original post again. You refer to a Fixed Penalty Notice. That is almost certainly Northern Rail's facsimile method used to extort more money than they're reasonably entitled to from innocent passengers caught out by the complications of ticketing. If they had used the Penalty Fare system as laid down by parliament, then you could have (a) appealed, and had it independently assessed and (b) had the penalty sum halved to £50 if your appeal failed and you paid promptly after that.

If you feel that you and your wife have been taken advantage of, I suggest that you complain to your MP that Northern Rail is using the threat of prosecution to double their income when there is a carefully set up Penalty Fare system which they could have used instead. As you have paid up already, I can't imagine any repercussions if Northern Rail don't like being challenged in this way.

 

[Haywain]

If they had used the Penalty Fare system

That depends on whether the inspector was actually authorised to issue a Penalty Fare Notice. The problem is that cases are reported due to the lack of an authorised person to issue a PFN.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That depends on whether the inspector was actually authorised to issue a Penalty Fare Notice. The problem is that cases are reported due to the lack of an authorised person to issue a PFN.

This is one of those great inconsistencies. Really it should be possible for a Penalty Fare to be issued retrospectively in this sort of case (I believe it isn't in the legislation), though if the TOCs were acting fairly they'd just issue settlements that worked in the same way as PFs at the same sums.

 

[Haywain]

This is one of those great inconsistencies. Really it should be possible for a Penalty Fare to be issued retrospectively in this sort of case (I believe it isn't in the legislation), though if the TOCs were acting fairly they'd just issue settlements that worked in the same way as PFs at the same sums.

Indeed. There's a good reason for issuing something differently but there's no good reason why it shouldn't work in the same way and result in the same penalty.

 

[Class800]

The offence is failing to provide the ticket on request, so that's not likely to help.

But did the inspector allow enough time and take into account factors such as age which is a protected characteristic under Equality Act to ensure he did not discriminate and indeed offered appropriate reasonable adjustment when the person had technical issues - these cases concern me, so much that I probably will have to not follow the thread any more, so I can have a good day!

 

[skyhigh]

But did the inspector allow enough time and take into account factors such as age which is a protected characteristic under Equality Act to ensure he did not discriminate and indeed offered appropriate reasonable adjustment when the person had technical issues

You often pop up to complain that the Equality Act might not be complied with, but there is absolutely no mention of age anywhere in the thread so I really don't see the point.

these cases concern me, so much that I probably will have to not follow the thread any more, so I can have a good day!

Again if you're getting concerned over details which haven't even been mentioned I think it's probably best you don't read threads in the Disputes section.

 

[gnolife]

You often pop up to complain that the Equality Act might not be complied with, but there is absolutely no mention of age anywhere in the thread so I really don't see the point.

It's been mentioned that the person in question held a senior railcard (post 9), but I'm also inclined to agree with you that I don't really see the point in bringing up the Equality Acty.

 

[185]

For reference the ticket purchase was 0925, the inward set, due 0928 in to Piccadilly Plat 9 or 10ish from Crewe is sometimes in around 0924-27, departs back to Styal & Crewe at 0936.

Unlikely but it may be possible (quote 'when boarding') that the RPI was applying the principle found in a compulsory ticket area without a ticket. It could also be boarding a train without a ticket. If it's the first, it should not apply as the passenger held an inward ticket from St Helens - so I'm guessing it could the second. I'd probably ask Trainline CS to re-issue the Styal outward ticket to proceed with a complaint / appeal.

 

[danm14]

Unlikely but it may be possible (quote 'when boarding') that the RPI was applying the principle found in a compulsory ticket area without a ticket. It could also be boarding a train without a ticket. If it's the first, it should not apply as the passenger held an inward ticket from St Helens

If it's the first, surely regardless of what tickets held, it doesn't apply because the customer wasn't in a Compulsory Ticket Area - none being found on the Northern network or indeed on most of the National Rail network.

 

[fandroid]

Surely, as it was Manchester Piccadilly, the ticket check was at the gate, where staff tend to gather in fairly large numbers. Check out the original post. The OP's wife was "given a ticket" so that she could board the train.

I still think it's worth a complaint to the OP's MP, pointing out that the feeble excuse of not having an authorised person available does not give Northern Rail the right to double the penalty and to reduce the passenger's rights
of appeal. Mention of Parliament's intentions vis a vis the Penalty Fare Regulations should be capable of getting the MP interested.

If the OP is so minded, we could review any draft so that the references to the Penalty Fare Regulations are accurate and exact.

 

[SteveM70]

That depends on whether the inspector was actually authorised to issue a Penalty Fare Notice. The problem is that cases are reported due to the lack of an authorised person to issue a PFN.

I struggling to see the incentive for Northern to spend money on training and accrediting additional staff to be able to issue penalty fares, when that would then reduce the amount of money they were able to extort recover from passengers with alleged ticket irregularities

 

[Wallsendmag]

Surely, as it was Manchester Piccadilly, the ticket check was at the gate, where staff tend to gather in fairly large numbers. Check out the original post. The OP's wife was "given a ticket" so that she could board the train.

Not if you've arrived on another train.

 

[fandroid]

Not if you've arrived on another train.

Do they have staff intercepting people who come off the through lines to the terminal platforms? I've only ever seen them at the main gateline fronting the concourse. Anyway, it's beside the point. If the story has been related correctly the OP's wife was given a ticket to proceed, and the infamous back-office decided it was an opportunity to grab more money.

I struggling to see the incentive for Northern to spend money on training and accrediting additional staff to be able to issue penalty fares, when that would then reduce the amount of money they were able to extort recover from passengers with alleged ticket irregularities

That's why I'm recommending a complaint to an MP, in the hope that external pressure will insert some fairness into the way Northern deal with passengers errors. The Penalty Fares were increased substantially earlier this year, but Northern have decided for themselves that that increase is insufficient.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Do they have staff intercepting people who come off the through lines to the terminal platforms? I've only ever seen them at the main gateline fronting the concourse.

Could possibly have been be on the overbridge for a train arriving into platform 13 at Manchester Piccadilly, assuming also that the onward train for Styal was one departing from the main train shed, which it invariably does.

 

[wilbers]

I don't understand what penalty was issued on the platform though. At that point the second train hadn't been boarded so it can't have been boarding a train without a valid ticket (regardless of actually having a ticket).

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I don't understand what penalty was issued on the platform though. At that point the second train hadn't been boarded so it can't have been boarding a train without a valid ticket (regardless of actually having a ticket).

OP's wife may have previously bought the ticket(s) using the Trainline app but then wasn't able to show either of them, including the one from St. Helens Junction to Manchester Piccadilly, assuming there was one for that leg?

P.S. Have we seen a copy of the correspondence received from / issued by Northern yet?