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Northern Rail Staff To Strike ?

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Flamingo

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Of course, if Northern hired the agency staff into full-time posts, there would usually be a "finders fee" due to the agency of several thousand pounds per individual...

I am reminded of the situation with Irish Ferries a few years ago, where they made 500 of their Irish/British staff redundant, replacing them with agency staff from Eastern Europe, hired in at the T&C and a minimum wage that applied in Latvia, less than half of the Irish minimum wage and with none of the protection that workers in the UK & Ireland have.
 
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northwichcat

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As a frequent traveller on this service I have seen this happen on a number of occasions (once it made a reversing move in order to return to the depot instead of continuing ECS to Chester - this caused considerable delay to following services). The guard normally arrives separately at Stockport at 16:51, on the 16:38 Piccadilly to Alderley Edge service. Sometimes the driver opens the doors to allow the passengers to board before the guard arrives, and on a couple of occasions we then had to be turfed out to allow the train to depart empty. I guess that the non-availability of the guard is not necessarily known before the unit departs Newton Heath ECS.

There have been other days when the guard has arrived late, causing the following Pendolino to wait on the Stockport viaduct for Platform 2 to clear.

I think one thing they should do is to make passengers at Piccadilly aware of cancellations of the Stockport-Chester services.

Yesterday I arrived 30 seconds too late to get the 16:38 Piccadilly-Alderley Edge service as far as Stockport so rushed to get the Liverpool-Norwich service (having to get past a G4S inspector on the way) and then on arrival at Stockport I saw "16:58 Chester CANCELLED" on the departures display. I made my way to platform 2 anyway knowing the 17:17 would depart from there and shortly afterwards I saw a unit arrived for the cancelled service.

Logically if they know about the unavailability of a guard they should send the unit ECS to Piccadilly instead (if possible) to strengthen the 17:09 Manchester-Chester.
 

hairyhandedfool

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....Just be cautious what you post on here and other forums.

Indeed, but it doesn't hurt to find out what the policy is. The signature on each of my posts is to do with company policy (what Northern suggest won't fit in the space allowed on this forum).
 

455driver

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By having high loads and rarely being cleaned properly.

How clean would your kitchen floor be if hundreds of people came from outside and walked across it everyday and you rarely cleaned it? Never mind about the fact that crumbs of food may be dropped or that you might let some coffee splash.

All our trains have litter bins on board near the doors, if the passengers cant put their rubbish in the bins whose fault is it?

If I came to your house would you be happy if I left my half eaten burger on your settee and half a cup of coffee on your chair?
Of course a closer analogy would be your car, if I had drunk half a cup of coffee then put the cup on the floor so when you drive off it spills everywhere whose fault is that?

You cant blame the TOCs because some passengers are a self important bunch of <deleted> who think putting their own rubbish in the bins is beneath them!

At Waterloo there are some cleaners who try and get through all the trains (even the morning peak ones) to pick up all the newspapers and cups that the <deleted> leave all over the seats and floor, not easy on a 7 minute turn around.
 

northwichcat

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All our trains have litter bins on board near the doors, if the passengers cant put their rubbish in the bins whose fault is it?

But who's fault is it if there is only one bin on the train and that doesn't get emptied frequently enough? Northern's little Pacers weren't intended to carry the number of passengers who board so don't have adequate rubbish provision, in the same way the number of seats and external doors is inadequate for the numbers travelling.

Some of floor vinyl on Northern trains looks like it hasn't been mopped for weeks, while it's not uncommon to find papers on the seats from a few days ago. As for the exterior of some of the DMUs it looks like they've done the train equivalent of off-roading which isn't exactly the fault of inconsiderate passengers! That's also with a dark blue and purple livery which can more easily hide dirt than other current TOC liveries.
 

455driver

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I appreciate the concern but my 10 pence worth was fairly tame. That's why I didn't criticise my employer, VT or Network Rail. Just enlightening those who are interested - that some pieces of puzzle are lost last minute causing some awkward moments for other staff.

You are now known to your company who have looked at the roster to see who you are and it has been noted. They will now keep an eye on every post you make (yes seriously).

When you have been on here for a while and get sick of the same old cr4p churned out by the same old anti-rail forum members, then one day you will bite and put something which in the cold light of day you regret.
But before you can delete it it is quoted by someone or is seen by your office based numpty out to make a name for himself who then passes it on to his manager who insists action is taken.

You go to work and are met for tea and no biscuits because you are in breach of the companies "press" policies.

Seen it happen to a few people and some very nearly lost their jobs.

Today its your 10 pence worth tomorrow it could be your job.
 

Silv1983

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When i've used trains as a passenger and the bins have been full - I have taken my empty can or tatty newspaper with me. Perhaps im too philanthropic for my own good.
 

455driver

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But who's fault is it if there is only one bin on the train and that doesn't get emptied frequently enough?
There are bins near every door, 4 doors equals 4 (very large) bins.

Northern's little Pacers weren't intended to carry the number of passengers who board so don't have adequate rubbish provision, in the same way the number of seats and external doors is inadequate for the numbers travelling.

Next time you get on one of Northerns little pacers (I thought they were all the same size myself apart from some having 3 coaches instead of 2!) and the floor and seats are covered in rubbish have a look in the bin(s) and see how full they are?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
When i've used trains as a passenger and the bins have been full - I have taken my empty can or tatty newspaper with me. Perhaps im too philanthropic for my own good.

or you have respect for other people and their travel environment.
 

Silv1983

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You are now known to your company who have looked at the roster to see who you are and it has been noted. They will now keep an eye on every post you make (yes seriously).

When you have been on here for a while and get sick of the same old cr4p churned out by the same old anti-rail forum members, then one day you will bite and put something which in the cold light of day you regret.
But before you can delete it it is quoted by someone or is seen by your office based numpty out to make a name for himself who then passes it on to his manager who insists action is taken.

You go to work and are met for tea and no biscuits because you are in breach of the companies "press" policies.

Seen it happen to a few people and some very nearly lost their jobs.

Today its your 10 pence worth tomorrow it could be your job.

Surely i'd only get into trouble for biting at "pro-rail cr4p" if I became disillusioned with the job? If I reacted to anti-rail cr4p my comments would be inherently defensive of the railways would they not? Fundamentally speaking I see what you're saying though. I have been for "tea and biccies" in my previous job because a jobsworth wanted a promotion and needed an "integrity" example for his or her competency based interview panel for something similar - so I am now extra cautious. I'll tone it down even further.
 

455driver

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Its just a question of being sensible, I havent driven 455s for quite a while now but because I keep an eye on what is happening I can post as if I do. That hopefully keeps me under the radar and anonymous.

Simple rules when posting, read and think twice before hitting the submit button.

A change of ID (so you can be anonymous again) plus a "forum only" email without any personal info in it wouldnt be a bad idea either, just in case. I am sure the MODs on here will help you set up another account so you can leave the other one dormant.

it is better to be over cautious than get caught out by a moments lapse.
 

northwichcat

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There are bins near every door, 4 doors equals 4 (very large) bins.

Next time you get on one of Northerns little pacers (I thought they were all the same size myself apart from some having 3 coaches instead of 2!) and the floor and seats are covered in rubbish have a look in the bin(s) and see how full they are?

I mean the Pacers are little in comparison to the size of other trains and the number of passengers who use the service. Northern's 2 car Pacers are 30m long - only 6.4m longer than one of the driving cars on a 172 and yet some of the 2 car Pacers carry enough passengers to fill all the seats on a 3 car 172.

On a Pacer service I caught yesterday (the unit for which had come straight from the depot prior to running the service) the bin hadn't been emptied prior to the unit being sent out. Also unless you include the paper towel bin in the toilet I think it is bin singular not bins.

If you're talking about completely different services and types of train to the ones you work how do you know how much inconsiderate passengers are to blame in the instance of Northern services?

I can't think of any train in the Northern area that has a bin by every door. The 156s or 158s with multiple bins per carriage but with them hidden behind the seat backs are probably the best you get on a Northern service.
 

455driver

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You have my viewpoint and you have yours, shall we leave it there?

This thread is aabout Northern staff going on strike to protect their jobs and conditions, not whether passengers are respectful enough to use the litter bins provided.
 

185

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I hear that in recent days Northern mentioned to regional transport organisations that the recruitment of those contracted staff was to cover their contractual obligations, as increasing (their own) staffing numbers beyond franchise agreement level would put them in contravention of their agreement.

It was then put to Northern that although Contractor 2 was introduced in 2012, the much increased usage of Contractor 1 since 2009, in an expanded geographical area than when the franchise was created, suggests increased subcontracting unrelated to their franchise obligations. Northern seemed to skirt around explaining this, instead focusing on 'the benefits of increased revenue protection'.

General opinion seems to be Northern have walked right into this, and another battle royale like Arriva Trains Northern (2001-3) & First North Western (2000-2002) is on the cards, however this time, with it not being directly pay-related, will likely receive much more sympathy and support from the public & politicians.
 

tbtc

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General opinion seems to be Northern have walked right into this

What else could they do?

Whilst DOO works perfectly well in London, Northern Guards have demanded that they retain the "safety" responsibility for trains. That means they seem to have little opportunity to check tickets.

No chance of ticket barriers at places like platforms 13/14 at Piccadilly (maybe something to consider if platforms 15/16 are built? the whole bridge area could be rebuilt?).

The TOC therefore needs to employ people to check tickets - these roles don't require the same degree of training/ responsibility as a Guard's role (e.g. there's no "train safety" or "route learning" or "door operating"), so the TOC offered the positions at a lower rate of salary to the Guard's jobs.

The TOC can't sign hundreds of extra people up on long term/ permenant contracts when the franchise is for a fixed period (there are rules against this).

So, what should they have done? Trust that people would buy tickets even though nobody was checking them?

I can see both sides here.
 

northwichcat

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Whilst DOO works perfectly well in London, Northern Guards have demanded that they retain the "safety" responsibility for trains. That means they seem to have little opportunity to check tickets.

I might be wrong on this but when the 180s arrived on short-term loans, the unions weren't happy that the SDO option could only be used if it the driver released the doors. Northern had to compromise and instructions were issued to use local door operation on any platforms that didn't allow for 5 carriages which increased dwell time.

Also I understand part of the reason for the tram-train trial being operated by Stagecoach Supertram and not Northern (who put out the invitation to tender for the tram-trains) was that the standard convention for tram-trains is for the driver to open and close the doors.
 

A-driver

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DOO is a seperate argument here but if people are going to go into the safety argument comparing London and other regions then it should be noted that the dft have said that they will not allow any further DOO introduction at this time on safety grounds.
 

hairyhandedfool

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What else could they do?...

...The TOC can't sign hundreds of extra people up on long term/ permenant contracts when the franchise is for a fixed period (there are rules against this).

So, what should they have done? Trust that people would buy tickets even though nobody was checking them?

I can see both sides here.

They made an agreement with the RMT for how many staff they got from agencies and what role they could be used for, if they had kept to that agreement and employed the remaining staff, they might not have been facing a ballot for strike action.
 

185

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(A)
What else could they do?

(B)
The TOC can't sign hundreds of extra people up on long term/ permenant contracts when the franchise is for a fixed period (there are rules against this).

A. Use fixed term contracts like Virgin. (ie, 'no promise of a job')

B. As stated earlier, they've been covertly increasing contractor usage since long before franchise expiry approached, so to blame the DfT contract is quite halfhearted and misleading.
 

northwichcat

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A. Use fixed term contracts like Virgin. (ie, 'no promise of a job')

Just one observation if there is a limit on how many permanent employees Northern are allowed under the franchise agreement and Northern use fix term contracts couldn't that result in a load of rail people out-of-work on the franchise end date instead of their employment transferring?
 

Solent&Wessex

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I noticed one of the aforementioned G4S staff doing Disabled assists at a manned Northern station today. Now while this was no doubt helpful from the passenger's point of view I didn't think it was within their remit?
 

The Ham

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I speak as a member of a trade union and, in the case of Northern Rail, I fully support the union action. The very fact that agency staff are saving Northern money can only be due to the fact that said agency staff will be employed on worse terms and conditions than the employed staff who used to carry out these roles. In the long term that will undermine the terms and conditions enjoyed by existing staff.

Agencies manage to undercut employed staff because they pay their staff less and often employ them on short term contracts that give them no security. Bear in mind that G4S will be making a profit from this so that' s money that is going out of the railway system.

Having said all that I do see why some posters don't take my view. Mr Crow has form in calling for industrial action at the drop of a hat and, too often, his actions seem more in pursuit of his own political views rather than the welfare of his members. Unfortunately, when there is a good case for action as there is here imho, the case is undermined in the minds of the travelling public because of his record.

Agency vs empoyeed staff is not any easy choice to make (some of these points are not directly related to the Northern situation, but are just to highlight some of the advantages of the two systems).

For instance agency staff can work odd shift patternes which varry from week to week, which gives a company flexibility to cover staff holiday, sick, etc. as well as provide extra staff when there is a need (i.e. major events). This sometime will cost the company more than the hourly rate of a member of staff (but less than overtime for their other staff), but unlike staff who they have to find work for all the time they can "employ" the staff on an as needed basis.

Other times when agency staff can be useful is if they are already trained to do something and the current staff are not fully trained and/or need to use some of their working hours to be trained/recieve additional training.

Conversly a company is unlikely to ever provide training for agency staff, as that will just make their employment skill set more desirable. Whislt it is benefitial to provide training to staff as that then means that they are of more use to the company.

Likewise staff tend to be more "brand loyal" and so will want to put the company in a good light (i.e. go the extra mile for the customers), whilst agency staff are more likely to just want to put in their hours and get paid.

Yes there is the risk that agency staff can under cut staff (due to lower pay & conditions) and therefore staff numbers could come under threat. however I would suggest that is a matter for when that happens rather than when that may happen. As it would be very difficult for any company to run its business only using agency staff.

For instance the only way a TOC could run all it's trains using agency drivers would be if a number of their current drivers and/or a lot of other TOC drivers decided to become agency drivers. The only way that is likely to happen is if the pay is better than being staff and even then that would be risky as due to a number of factors they could be out of a job within a few years.
 

185

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I noticed one of the aforementioned G4S staff doing Disabled assists at a manned Northern station today. Now while this was no doubt helpful from the passenger's point of view I didn't think it was within their remit?

Ha, all the G4S staff were told to remove Northern uniforms today at Piccadilly and get the G4S ones back on. Not sure whether this will be seen as management backing off, or rubbing it in the face of the union.

jcollins said:
couldn't that result in a load of rail people out-of-work on the franchise end date instead of their employment transferring?

I think that agency staff or contracted staff being made redundant is very much the same. Whether they are fixed term 'own' staff or hired staff, they still face redundancy at the expiry of the franchise whoever they worked for, it's just the use of contracted staff with poor conditions is shameful and Northern should know better.
 

northwichcat

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Ha, all the G4S staff were told to remove Northern uniforms today at Piccadilly and get the G4S ones back on. Not sure whether this will be seen as management backing off, or rubbing it in the face of the union.

Some Northern employees have said on forums that they have complained about the fact that G4S are allowed to wear Northern uniforms so if the union kicks about a fuss about Northern doing what some of the union members have requested to happen then it would look like Michael O'Leary style PR.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Not quite, if the staff are working to rule/ not working overtime then they will work their rostered duty (whether its a quiet train or a busy one), the ones that wont run are the ones that are not covered on the base roster and staff wont come off their booked jobs to help out, hence the work to rule part of the dispute.

When First North Western workers refused to work overtime and an agreement could not be reached, FNW published a list of services which wouldn't run on any day for each line until they had more trained crew members on their books. They seemed to be mainly trains that required an early start or a late finish or middle of the day services. When the first or last train wasn't to run it was bustituted instead.

I know Northern do have some gentlemen's agreements in place to try and avoid the cancellation of the busiest trains due to staff shortages (and to cancel a quieter service instead) which may be difficult to maintain under the arrangement you describe.
 

kieron

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Reading notices certainly is something you need to do every day before signing on and touching a train.

Normally it's 6 minutes and that is to book on-pick up diagram, read it through ensuring you sign all routes and traction on it, check notice cases for safety info-speed restrictions etc (you need to know about the 20mph restriction which was implemented 3hours before you signed on etc), check what time you are booking on next day, other admin as well (signing assessments, filling in reports left in your pigeon hole, reading through the weekly notice etc.
Thanks, I understand now. There are some jobs where you have to check your rota and sort out problems with it outside working hours, but it's not generally used when every shift starts in the same place.

At the end of the day, though, you get paid so much for a week's work, however it's laid out on your payslip.
 

ANorthernGuard

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This from RMT clearly show what the issues are!
http://www.rmt.org.uk/Templates/Internal.asp?NodeID=173697

As Northern Rail strike ballot opens RMT slams management “lies and dirty tricks.”

Publication Date: May 7 2013

As RMT begins balloting today on Northern Rail for strike action in an increasingly bitter dispute over the casualisation of core rail work in a bid by the company to undermine staff job security, pay and working conditions, the union has slammed a campaign of lies and dirty tricks by company managers designed to interfere in the internal balloting process.

Over the bank holiday weekend, Northern Rail management have been attempting to bully staff through a series of attacks on RMT union officials and a barrage of totally false propaganda.

The biggest lie of the bunch is that Northern Rail are only “trialling” the use of casual staff when the fact is that over a period of time they have escalated the use of agency workers into core areas of their business with the sole objective of being able to undercut pay and conditions while opening up the opportunity to hire and fire at will.

RMT is in no doubt that the company policy is to roll out the use of casual staff into all possible areas of their operations, effectively delivering skilled rail jobs on the “lump”, impacting on all permanent staff in the name of “flexibility” and profit. That is why RMT is balloting all members for strike action because every single employee is threatened by this introduction of wholesale casualisation by stealth.

The second big lie is that RMT wants the agency staff sacked. Nothing could be further from the truth. RMT wants the casual, low paid staff to be employed by the company on a permanent and secure basis and on decent terms and conditions. Our fight is not with the agency staff but with the companies that seek to exploit them as a weapon to undermine the permanent workforce and in the name of profit.

RMT General Secretary Bob Crow said:

“It is disgraceful that Northern management, instead to sitting down with the union to address the issues at the heart of this dispute, have resorted to a campaign of smears, lies and personal attacks in a desperate attempt to influence the outcome of this secret trade union ballot.

“There is rock-sold evidence of a deliberate and cynical drive to use casual, agency staff to undermine job security, pay and working conditions on Northern Rail and our members are furious that not only have the company refused to stop this practice but they are driving it forwards. Everyone in the workforce knows it because they can see it with their own eyes. Casualisation is now the policy of Northern as they seek to deliver core rail jobs on the “lump” and if it isn’t stopped now there is no question they will seek to roll it out across all grades and that is why all members are being balloted – gate line today, the rest tomorrow if we don’t call a halt now.

“RMT’s demand is clear, an immediate end to Northern Rail casualising the workforce. If there is work that needs doing, it should be done by permanently employed staff on decent pay and conditions and not by an exploited, short-term workforce paid a pittance and denied the most basic of workplace benefits and who can be hired and fired at will in the name of pumping up profits. The future of all permanent jobs and working agreements is under threat and that is why RMT is calling for a massive “Yes” vote across all grades in this strike ballot.”

ENDS




As a receiver of the one of the emails from our HR Director all the email from the director has done is further stirred things against the company.

This is could turn out to be a long and bitter dispute


I certainly hope it is resolved for everyone's sake
 

northwichcat

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RMT said:
The second big lie is that RMT wants the agency staff sacked. Nothing could be further from the truth. RMT wants the casual, low paid staff to be employed by the company on a permanent and secure basis and on decent terms and conditions. Our fight is not with the agency staff but with the companies that seek to exploit them as a weapon to undermine the permanent workforce and in the name of profit.

Oh dear I thought the RMT would know all about employment law and yet they are suggesting an approach that would mean Northern would have to buy out the contracts of people employed by G4S and trainpeople in the same way football clubs buy players contracted to other clubs which would be very expensive and unorthodox to carry out.

Realistically if Northern were to stop using agency staff and to take the roles in house they would have to advertise new roles and then employ the best people who apply and it would likely result in a mix of former agency staff and new staff.
 

185

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They took all the cleaners in house with all the same staff

Agree. With the cleaners, it was a straightforward TUPE transfer; there was no tender advertised as the private company chose to end the use of a (failing) contractor. The difference here would be a transfer to a fixed term contract which would cause major dispute between G4S and it's staff (some with 15 years service).

Northern do have the power to terminate the G4S contract for any reason they choose, which could be poor management, poorly skilled staff, damaging the name of Northern etc..
 

Flamingo

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Oh dear I thought the RMT would know all about employment law and yet they are suggesting an approach that would mean Northern would have to buy out the contracts of people employed by G4S and trainpeople in the same way football clubs buy players contracted to other clubs which would be very expensive and unorthodox to carry out.

Realistically if Northern were to stop using agency staff and to take the roles in house they would have to advertise new roles and then employ the best people who apply and it would likely result in a mix of former agency staff and new staff.

Not necessarily, but they would have to pay the agency a hefty introduction fee. This can run to the equivelant of a years salary, depending on industry and job involved.
 
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