Northern Rail yet again overcharging! ('Peak' ticketing)

[johntea]

Just bought a ticket on a train from an unstaffed station in West Yorkshire to South Yorkshire.

Once again sold an Anytime Day Return rather than the Off Peak Day Return. Not the first time this has happened - come on Northern, if you can't understand your own system nearly a year since implementation how do you expect the average passenger to do so?! :roll:

 

[Jonfun]

Didn't you query it with the conductor at the time?

 

[johntea]

I would have done but I didn't actually notice until I studied the ticket later on unfourtunately.

Either way, there is absolutely no valid reason I can think of that you would ever need an 'anytime' day return from the two stations in query when starting the journey at 5pm anyway

 

[najaB]

I would have done but I didn't actually notice until I studied the ticket later on unfourtunately.

I refer the learned member to the following:

21. Buying tickets
As soon as you can, you should check that the details shown on the ticket are consistent with the journey you intend to make and that you have received the correct change. If you think a mistake has been made you should tell the person who sold you the ticket as soon as possible.

 

[Aictos]

Did you not ask for the Off Peak ticket? As strange as it might be, the art of mind reading is yet to be mastered by these selling tickets even if it seems obvious to these wanting tickets.

Example I needed to do Waterloo to Cosham one night as quickly as possible now while the booking office at Waterloo wanted to route me via Eastleigh on the direct service, I wanted to change at Havant which despite being a change of trains was actually faster for me.

The point I'm trying to make is you should mention exactly what you want to buy so you get sold the right product.

 

[syorksdeano]

Northern now have a peak period in the evening. If you are travelling at 5pm then that is why you was not sold a off peak ticket

 

[najaB]

Northern now have a peak period in the evening. If you are travelling at 5pm then that is why you was not sold a off peak ticket

Does that apply on all routes?

 

[Hadders]

Northern now have a peak period in the evening. If you are travelling at 5pm then that is why you was not sold a off peak ticket

It's not quite as simple as that.

There is no blanket peak or off peak time restriction, restrictions are determined by the actual ticket for the journey you're making.

While we don't know the exact journey being made by the OP I'm sure it'll be one on which an off peak ticket was valid,never if it was at 5pm.

There are many journeys you can still make in the evening 'peak' using off peak tickets, despite what Northern claim.

 

[ainsworth74]

Northern now have a peak period in the evening. If you are travelling at 5pm then that is why you was not sold a off peak ticket

I thought that only applied if the fare setter was a PTE? We would need to know exactly what ticket johntea bought in order to comment on who is correct here.

 

[Jonfun]

I would have done but I didn't actually notice until I studied the ticket later on unfourtunately.

Either way, there is absolutely no valid reason I can think of that you would ever need an 'anytime' day return from the two stations in query when starting the journey at 5pm anyway

I just don't understand if you've said they've done it before and you're familiar with how much it costs why when he asked you for too much didn't you say, oh, it's normally x much. It's happened to me a couple of times, once I recall where they misheard me say "Farnham" as "Farncombe" or somewhere like that.

 

[yorkie]

I just don't understand if you've said they've done it before ...

..they have indeed, to several people I know (and no doubt many more as this is just the tip of the iceberg)

...and you're familiar with how much it costs why when he asked you for too much didn't you say, oh, it's normally x much. It's happened to me a couple of times, once I recall where they misheard me say "Farnham" as "Farncombe" or somewhere like that.

I don't think this is comparable to mishearing the destination, nor do we know if johntea has asked a ticket to a particular station he is familiar with the fare to. I also don't think it's reasonable that a passenger should in any way be expected to remember fares.

 

[najaB]

I don't think this is comparable to mishearing the destination, nor do we know if johntea has asked a ticket to a particular station he is familiar with the fare to. I also don't think it's reasonable that a passenger should in any way be expected to remember fares.

I agree that the TOC should get the ticket right,but, given that johntea has experience of the wrong ticket being sold, I think it's fair to say that he equally should have checked at the time.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

It's not quite as simple as that.

There is no blanket peak or off peak time restriction, restrictions are determined by the actual ticket for the journey you're making.

While we don't know the exact journey being made by the OP I'm sure it'll be one on which an off peak ticket was valid,never if it was at 5pm.

There are many journeys you can still make in the evening 'peak' using off peak tickets, despite what Northern claim.

I suspect that the CDR was valid. A sample journey such as Wakefield to Barnsley does not carry the restriction.

Northern are hopeless at this. I was on a train home recently from Manchester, in the "evening peak", and the Guard was busy going down checking tickets after Rochdale telling everyone going into West Yorkshire that Off Peak tickets weren't valid, but he "would let them off this time". They were, no restrictions apply for those journeys.

A friend of mine rung me the other week and tells me that when buying a ticket from a Northern station in West Yorkshire to Manchester, which does not carry the evening peak restriction, he had particular issues in this regard at the station, on the train, and at the barrier.

I thought that only applied if the fare setter was a PTE? We would need to know exactly what ticket johntea bought in order to comment on who is correct here.

No. Technically the PTEs don't set any point to point fares now at all, despite what things such as BRFares say. Northern is the fare setter in full. PTEs only set things such as DayRovers, Mcards etc. Obviously point to point fares within PTE boundaries are artifically deflated due to the existence of the Rovers, MCard type products. Much the same on buses. I am sure First, Transdev etc would want to charge higher bus fares in peaks, especially for their own All-Day tickets, but the existence of the Metroday in West Yorkshire keeps their fares lower than might be expected.

That aside, however, there are many fares where the restriction applies which are not wholly within PTE boundaries - Leeds - Skipton, Manchester - Warrington for example.

 

[yorkie]

Northern now have a peak period in the evening. If you are travelling at 5pm then that is why you was not sold a off peak ticket

There is no concept of a particular Train Company barring all off peak tickets at a certain time. If there was, it would be chaotic!

Each ticket has a restriction code, and it is that which determines when the ticket is valid.

Although the original post isn't very helpful in that the origin and destination are both kept secret, the fact that the origin is in West Yorkshire and the destination is in South Yorkshire, is generally sufficient to determine that no evening restriction applies, though I would always ask that the full details are disclosed so that we can be certain of this.

 

[Jonfun]

..they have indeed, to several people I know (and no doubt many more as this is just the tip of the iceberg)

I don't think this is comparable to mishearing the destination, nor do we know if johntea has asked a ticket to a particular station he is familiar with the fare to. I also don't think it's reasonable that a passenger should in any way be expected to remember fares.

Yes, the conductor should sell the right ticket, but people are only human and it's not difficult to accidentally press the wrong button. The OP by his own admission states that he's bought a ticket from x to y and they've given him the wrong one, which has happened before. I don't think it's unreasonable then to suggest that it would be a good idea to query if you don't think you're being/have been sold the wrong one again.

Obviously if it was pointed out that the wrong ticket had been sold but the conductor believed it was right, then we would have an issue.

 

[yorkie]

Hmm... There are a lot of 'wrong buttons' being pressed by Northern Rail staff at certain times! (!)

The 'wrong button' doesn't tend to be pressed too often at weekends or midday. So I put it that it's more than just a 'wrong button' and is, in fact, evidence of repeated failures to adhere to the code of practice.

There is a lot of evidence that this is happening to a significant number of people.

The OP, and others affected, needs to ensure that the relevant bodies are aware of these recurrences.

 

[Deerfold]

No. Technically the PTEs don't set any point to point fares now at all, despite what things such as BRFares say. Northern is the fare setter in full. PTEs only set things such as DayRovers, Mcards etc. Obviously point to point fares within PTE boundaries are artifically deflated due to the existence of the Rovers, MCard type products. Much the same on buses. I am sure First, Transdev etc would want to charge higher bus fares in peaks, especially for their own All-Day tickets, but the existence of the Metroday in West Yorkshire keeps their fares lower than might be expected.

WYMetro do not set the price of any of these tickets - these are all set by the West Yorkshire Ticketing Company - bus operators and Metro have a stake in this company as per the shareholdings on this page:

http://companycheck.co.uk/company/0...-COMPANY-LIMITED/group-structure#shareholders

 

[Starmill]

No. Technically the PTEs don't set any point to point fares now at all, despite what things such as BRFares say. Northern is the fare setter in full. PTEs only set things such as DayRovers, Mcards etc. Obviously point to point fares within PTE boundaries are artifically deflated due to the existence of the Rovers, MCard type products. Much the same on buses. I am sure First, Transdev etc would want to charge higher bus fares in peaks, especially for their own All-Day tickets, but the existence of the Metroday in West Yorkshire keeps their fares lower than might be expected.

Do the PTEs charge artificially low fares, or does TransPennine Express charge artificially high fares? Way to charge full whack Inter City and not actually have to provide anything close to the levels of service of real IC operators, eh?

I'm not sure what good it would do to point out that the wrong ticket had been sold really. It seems to be very difficult for guards to correct this kind of mistake - or at least that's how their reactions make it seem.

 

[yorkie]

Do the PTEs charge artificially low fares, or does TransPennine Express charge artificially high fares?

The latter, clearly! But let's stay on topic please!

I think there's not much to say until johntea has heard back from Northern or any of the other relevant bodies.

 

[johntea]

The journey was Wakefield Kirkgate to Chapeltown (South Yorks), although it was purchased on board a Saltaire to Leeds train as I had my Metrocard to cover me to Wakefield.

Looking even closer at the ticket 'Chapeltown Yorks' to a conductor on a different route may not be too obvious that it isn't West Yorkshire, though surely his Avantix machine should prioritize the cheaper fare? (I obviously don't know what would appear on the screen).

Anyway I'll get in touch with Northern tomorrow about it, the fare was £10.20 rather than £7.60 so quite a large difference, I'm not too clued up on these full whack fares yet after recently passing the expiry date of my railcard and now seemingly been too old yet too young to get another one

 

[HilversumNS]

the fare was £10.20 rather than £7.60 so quite a large difference

While I totally support your claim that an incorrect ticket was sold, and it is clear that Northern have done this on numerous occasions, stating that £2.60 is a large amount is stretching things a bit.

 

[najaB]

... though surely his Avantix machine should prioritize the cheaper fare?

Having seen a few guards hunting for fares, I'm not sure that it does.

 

[Harpers Tate]

..people are only human..accidentally press the wrong button..

that £2.60 is a large amount....

I wonder whether, if a passenger (who is only human) accidentally makes some mistake in their ticket purchase involving a difference in the passenger's favour of £2.60, the TOC would consider the amount large enough to escalate the "offence" and charge the unfortunate human involved a minimum of £80. Indeed, there have been cases described here were action was taken and the amount involved was £0.00

 

[HilversumNS]

I wonder whether, if a passenger (who is only human) accidentally makes some mistake in their ticket purchase involving a difference in the passenger's favour of £2.60, the TOC would consider the amount large enough to escalate the "offence" and charge the unfortunate human involved a minimum of £80. Indeed, there have been cases described here were action was taken and the amount involved was £0.00

That isn't the point here. £2.60 is described as a large difference by the OP, which I think is somewhat of an exaggeration.

Everyone has different view of what is large, mine is that £2.60 isn't. I doubt that a TOC would describe it as large, but they would describe it as large enough to follow it up, as you have.

Happy to disagree and move on though, this doesn't help the OP with his incorrectly sold ticket.

 

[northwichcat]

I thought that only applied if the fare setter was a PTE? We would need to know exactly what ticket johntea bought in order to comment on who is correct here.

Generally yes. There are some exceptions in the Greater Manchester area where the evening peak restrictions extend to stations outside Greater Manchester.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

stating that £2.60 is a large amount is stretching things a bit.

It's a significant difference in relation to what should have been paid. Proportionally it's the same as a £102 ticket being sold instead of a £76 one.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The journey was Wakefield Kirkgate to Chapeltown (South Yorks), although it was purchased on board a Saltaire to Leeds train as I had my Metrocard to cover me to Wakefield.

Looking even closer at the ticket 'Chapeltown Yorks' to a conductor on a different route may not be too obvious that it isn't West Yorkshire, though surely his Avantix machine should prioritize the cheaper fare? (I obviously don't know what would appear on the screen).

Anyway I'll get in touch with Northern tomorrow about it, the fare was £10.20 rather than £7.60 so quite a large difference, I'm not too clued up on these full whack fares yet after recently passing the expiry date of my railcard and now seemingly been too old yet too young to get another one

Having seen a few guards hunting for fares, I'm not sure that it does.

Avantix does not display the fares in the easiest of ways for journeys where there are a variety of fares or routes. But this is one of the simplest journeys so absolutely no excuse for the error at all. And I don't buy the "pressed the wrong button" excuse either. See attached. P.s. Don't ask me why the picture is the wrong way round. It is fine on my screen!

 

[najaB]

Avantix does not display the fares in the easiest of ways for journeys where there are a variety of fares or routes. But this is one of the simplest journeys so absolutely no excuse for the error at all. And I don't buy the "pressed the wrong button" excuse either.

Thanks for the screenshot, don't worry about the orientation the neck stretch was probably overdue!

One thing I wonder, although the tickets are presented sorted in ascending order of price is it possible for the default sort to be any other order? Also, could it be that a previous passenger had asked for the Anytime ticket and the guard just used the 'last fares' feature without thinking about it?

I'm not trying to make excuses as there is never a good reason to overcharge a passenger by 35%, just I'm not keep to assign to malice that which can be explained by incompetence.

 

[northwichcat]

Also, could it be that a previous passenger had asked for the Anytime ticket and the guard just used the 'last fares' feature without thinking about it?

Very unlikely considering the B1 restriction means it's valid on any service departing after 09:30 with no evening peak restriction.

 

[Ediswan]

Don't ask me why the picture is the wrong way round. It is fine on my screen!

That is usually down to inconsistent handling of the Exif Orientation Flag in the JPEG image. An example is taking a picture using an Apple device which considers itself to be rotated from normal, then displaying the result using Windows.

 

[Moonshot]

Hmm... There are a lot of 'wrong buttons' being pressed by Northern Rail staff at certain times! (!)

The 'wrong button' doesn't tend to be pressed too often at weekends or midday. So I put it that it's more than just a 'wrong button' and is, in fact, evidence of repeated failures to adhere to the code of practice.

There is a lot of evidence that this is happening to a significant number of people.

The OP, and others affected, needs to ensure that the relevant bodies are aware of these recurrences.

The evidence being what exactly??

Do guards make mistakes when issuing tickets?? Yes.....

Are mistakes easily rectified?? Yes .......simply non issue the ticket and print a new one.

What percentage of passengers buy a ticket from a guard, only to realise that they themselves have asked for the wrong one which has been issued?? This does happen, but again its easily rectified....with either a non issue or an excess.