Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[Wolfie]

they managed to fit an accessible and a standard toilet into the connex express 319/2s, in the same end so dont know why they couldnt have done that here.

I may be incorrect but believe the former to not be fully stsndards compliant....
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London Buses switching to white blinds is due to Boris Johnson's nostalgia rather than any sensible reasoning - it's been criticised by disability groups.

Edit: just seen this has been posted above.

Correct. The blond buffoon strikes again. The arrogant Bullingdon Boy's opinion is more important than years of research. I dispise the bloke...

 

[physics34]

I may be incorrect but believe the former to not be fully stsndards compliant....

very possible, even though it was pretty spacious.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Its all about numbers. The percentage of people who are so poorly sighted that they cannot distinguish between a door and a window... would they be out on their own on a station trying to catch a train?... and if they were wouldnt they need a guide dog anyway, to find the station entrance, to find the right platform, to walk up the stairs??!

If so it would be a minute percentage. Just saying. No offense intended.

That would be a fair point if painting the doors a distinctive colour had a detrimental effect, above and beyond not looking quite as sleek, in your opinion.

 

[Rational Plan]

London Buses switching to white blinds is due to Boris Johnson's nostalgia rather than any sensible reasoning - it's been criticised by disability groups.

Edit: just seen this has been posted above.

With no reason, as it meets legislation requirements for visibility.

If the head of London Bus prefers the white look, what's the problem? Just because a lobby group objects? It is in their interest to make some noise. If it was up to them Double deckers would have space for two wheelchairs, which is not possible space wise.

There beef was they were not consulted, they want all changes to be approved by them as it increases their power. But since the new blinds meet legislation standards they did not need to be consulted.

Also note no actual passengers have complained, until a twitter storm by the usual anti Boris groups sent off a flurry freedom of information requests.

 

[Starmill]

Ever so slightly off topic people...

 

[JaJaWa]

If the head of London Bus prefers the white look, what's the problem? Just because a lobby group objects? It is in their interest to make some noise. If it was up to them Double deckers would have space for two wheelchairs, which is not possible space wise.

If it was up to them we'd probably still have bendy buses that could easily take two wheelchairs and were also withdrawn without a genuine reason.

Also I don't see your point here - it's not difficult to have high visibility blinds, we had them before. Do we not want to do the best we can for our less able passengers?

 

[Max]

Please can we try to keep this on topic? Thanks.

 

[47802]

It's just a refresh with deep clean, new seat cushions and toilet.

It falls far short of the standard of the two demonstrator trains on Greater Anglia at present.

It looks good - as good as the 156s treatment.

It looks good for the amount of work done, my concern would be that this is regarded as good enough by the next franchise winner and no further work is done, other than any 2020 compliance.

 

[samj]

Reading through the fleet list on the following link - http://www.abrail.co.uk/emuformations.htm it seems that Northern will have 28 units by the end of May 2015. Now if they only need 14 diagrams what is going to happen to the 14 spare?! Can anyone also answer as to why they are transferring them from all sub classes? Need to get my photos of 013/215/216 in SN and advertising liveries before they head up North as I assume they will be painted into Northern before they enter use. I thought it was going to be all 319/3s first before moving onto the others!

 

[hassaanhc]

Reading through the fleet list on the following link - http://www.abrail.co.uk/emuformations.htm it seems that Northern will have 28 units by the end of May 2015. Now if they only need 14 diagrams what is going to happen to the 14 spare?! Can anyone also answer as to why they are transferring them from all sub classes? Need to get my photos of 013/215/216 in SN and advertising liveries before they head up North as I assume they will be painted into Northern before they enter use. I thought it was going to be all 319/3s first before moving onto the others!

/0 & /2 will be fun if they enter service without refurbishment, they are in almost-original interior! At least the /2 got a completely new type of seat, some /0 still have NSE moquette! Along with the original unpainted handrails and orange door partitions and flooring. The /3 & /4 which are in FCC interior colours would seem brand new in comparison.

 

[northwichcat]

Reading through the fleet list on the following link - http://www.abrail.co.uk/emuformations.htm it seems that Northern will have 28 units by the end of May 2015. Now if they only need 14 diagrams what is going to happen to the 14 spare?! Can anyone also answer as to why they are transferring them from all sub classes? Need to get my photos of 013/215/216 in SN and advertising liveries before they head up North as I assume they will be painted into Northern before they enter use. I thought it was going to be all 319/3s first before moving onto the others!

14 x 319s wouldn't be 14 in service, otherwise the diagramming would go to pot even time there was a train fault or scheduled maintenance.

http://www.abrail.co.uk is not an official source. It could be someone's wrongly assumed units will automatically go to Northern as soon as they are freed up or it could be there's going to be a cascade away from Northern. As there's only a couple of DMUs you could release by re-timetabling Northern services to better utilise OHEs (e.g. using 1 x EMU to run a Hazel Grove-Manchester shuttle) the only thing I can think of is if Northern release 32xs to LM, who then release 350s to TPE to both strengthen Scottish services and reduce the chance of 185s filling in for 350s.

 

[Manchester77]

Its been reported on the yahoo groups EMU site that northern will receive all 319s released by the 387/1s. There will be the units for the initial electric diagrams and then for later Blackpool services which will require 24 diagrams (I think)

 

[northwichcat]

There will be the units for the initial electric diagrams and then for later Blackpool services which will require 24 diagrams (I think)

Blackpool won't be able to take EMUs until after the 3 month closure from mid-December 2016: http://www.networkrailmediacentre.c...l-investment-in-Blackpool-continues-2112.aspx So the EMUs for Blackpool won't be the responsibility of the current franchise.

 

[deltic08]

I may be incorrect but believe the former to not be fully stsndards compliant....
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Correct. The blond buffoon strikes again. The arrogant Bullingdon Boy's opinion is more important than years of research. I dispise the bloke...

Oh Wolfie this is worrying. We agree on something.

 

[Fincra5]

Looking at those images, it appears that the new Northern livery is in effect a Northernised version of SWT - if you look at the cab area you'll just about notice a band of deeper lilac rising up and running along the bottom half of each coach, in a similar pattern to that of SWTs livery. Doesn't look too bad though, and makes a change to see some investment in the incoming fleet for a change at Northern, unlike the 150s of course!

IMO they should have kept the front area Yellow like it was under FCC. It looks a bit odd now.

 

[SN319]

What SN liviried 319's will be going to Northern then? Does anyone know how many of the SN liveried ones are left in service at the moment and unit numbers? May have to pay a visit to the Sutton loop or up to Bedford to catch them

..

 

[childwallblues]

14 x 319s wouldn't be 14 in service, otherwise the diagramming would go to pot even time there was a train fault or scheduled maintenance.

http://www.abrail.co.uk is not an official source. It could be someone's wrongly assumed units will automatically go to Northern as soon as they are freed up or it could be there's going to be a cascade away from Northern. As there's only a couple of DMUs you could release by re-timetabling Northern services to better utilise OHEs (e.g. using 1 x EMU to run a Hazel Grove-Manchester shuttle) the only thing I can think of is if Northern release 32xs to LM, who then release 350s to TPE to both strengthen Scottish services and reduce the chance of 185s filling in for 350s.

Would be a backward step for LM replacing 350s with 321/322. The 350/2 replaced the 321s originally.
I cannot see the point at present in transferring /2 and /4 to Northern at present as there is no first class on Northern services.
Some could of course be earmarked to replace 323s on services such as Crewe-Manchester were there are platforms long enough to take them. A friend of mine who drives 323s at Piccadilly has told me that they know of no plans to be trained on 319s.

 

[northwichcat]

Some could of course be earmarked to replace 323s on services such as Crewe-Manchester were there are platforms long enough to take them. A friend of mine who drives 323s at Piccadilly has told me that they know of no plans to be trained on 319s.

There's concerns about whether the 319s can keep to 323 timings on Crewe/Stoke/Glossop services. Porterbrook have said the 319 acceleration could be improved by re-engineering them as 3 car trains but then they'd be 10m shorter than a 323.

 

[acmw421]

What SN liviried 319's will be going to Northern then? Does anyone know how many of the SN liveried ones are left in service at the moment and unit numbers? May have to pay a visit to the Sutton loop or up to Bedford to catch them

..

From what I have seen as a daily commuter on Thameslink, 319008 and 013 remain from the /0 lot in Southern colours (though they might be overdue a works visit now 319005-006 have come back?). All the 319/2 lot (319214-220) remain in SN base colours but 215 and 218 are in advertising schemes for Swiss tourism and Lycamobile respectively. They seem to be more common on the Sevenoaks line trains than on the Sutton loop trains (though I have seen them there).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There's concerns about whether the 319s can keep to 323 timings on Crewe/Stoke/Glossop services. Porterbrook have said the 319 acceleration could be improved by re-engineering them as 3 car trains but then they'd be 10m shorter than a 323.

When the Class 319 units were being looked at as an option by Northern Rail, would that matter of acceleration not have been one that they would have queried?

 

[Beano123]

Northern are always short of 323s - from memory there's 17 in the fleet, and 15 units are required.

The morning peak has at least 2 return services diagrammed as 2 x 142s - the 0606 Crewe via Stockport, returns as the 0739 Crewe to Salford Crescent, and the 0715 Macclesfield to Manchester. The 0715 runs up as an ECS working. Both of these workings are timed for DMUs - the Macclesfield timings are particularly slack from memory. I'd like to think that a 319 on these services would increase capacity and keep to time!

There's a couple of Hazel Groves that are booked DMU work from Manchester Piccadilly in the evening but nothing to Crewe/Stoke.

The other problem with the 319s is the length of the units. The Glossop/Hadfield line will require platform lengthening at Flowery Field and Godley at the least. They will only just fit a 323 and had to be lengthened for them when they where introduced. Other problems include the signal sighting at Ashburys on the Up, and how much of the train the conductor can see on the curve at Diniting Station. Not insurmountable problems but things that need to be considered.

All 323 work with the exception of Crewe is quite tightly timed. Anything with less acceleration/brake force will struggle to keep the timings. There's not much slack for easing them either - Glossop/Hadfield triangle is hard to keep time on as it is, on the Stoke run there's a voyager booked into Stoke 3 minutes after the 323 arrives and the airport run is busy at the best of times.

The 323s are well loaded at peak times, a few are full and standing. Recently some have been full and standing recently on some Christmas Market days - shorter units will not be helpful!

No-one at the depot has mentioned Piccadilly men signing the 319s. I suspect that they'll be staying over on the Liverpool/Wigan/Victoria side until the new franchise starts.

 

[corin paul]

319636 was running round at Allerton Depot on Monday along with another unkown 319 on the depot.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/55607814@N04/15928668571/in/photolist-qgyAdK

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's concerns about whether the 319s can keep to 323 timings on Crewe/Stoke/Glossop services. Porterbrook have said the 319 acceleration could be improved by re-engineering them as 3 car trains but then they'd be 10m shorter than a 323.

Two options there - one is to retain 323s for these, the other is to rejig the timetable if it's workable to do so.

Neil

 

[northwichcat]

Two options there - one is to retain 323s for these, the other is to rejig the timetable if it's workable to do so.

Re-timing some of the Northern services by only 3 minutes would require Virgin to change the times of their services and it doesn't work that way - Virgin decide what paths they want and Northern have to fit their services around the Virgin ones.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Re-timing some of the Northern services by only 3 minutes would require Virgin to change the times of their services and it doesn't work that way - Virgin decide what paths they want and Northern have to fit their services around the Virgin ones.

Fair enough. Not so of Hadfield, though I imagine if it's that tight at present it might not be desirable to retime because it might require an extra unit/crew and longer layovers.

Neil

 

[northwichcat]

Fair enough. Not so of Hadfield, though I imagine if it's that tight at present it might not be desirable to retime because it might require an extra unit/crew and longer layovers.

Neil

Until TPE Airport services run via the Ordsall Chord the Hadfield services are also very tightly pathed.

 

[edwin_m]

When the Class 319 units were being looked at as an option by Northern Rail, would that matter of acceleration not have been one that they would have queried?

The units currently going to Northern are effectively a stopgap. They should be able to match the timings of the diesels on the routes being electrified and that is all that is needed - in fact given the complex nature of the timetable and the limited time left on the franchise I suspect the 319s will just run in diesel timings anyway, until the timetable is re-cast soon after the new franchise.

It is for bidders for the successor franchise to decide what rolling stock they use. The existing lease arrangement probably doesn't commit the future franchise to continue using 319s but I think they will do so, as by then the staff will be trained up on them and they probably represent the most cost-effective option. Similarly they need to decide whether to shorten some or all them to 3 cars, which would improve performance (but still not as good as a 323) and allow 6-car sets on routes where an 8-car would be too long for the platforms. Beyond the useful but superficial work being done currently, the level of refurbishment and re-engineering is also for bidders to decide.

Unless DfT intervenes, the continued use or otherwise of 323s is a commercial matter for the franchisee and bidders will have to decide whether to replace them with more 319s or something else on some or all of their routes. They will also have to satisfy Network Rail that if the replacements have longer sectional running times, the timetable can be adjusted to accommodate these without affecting performance.

 

[387star]

New toilet on a Tl 319

http://www.thameslinkrailway.com/about-us/news/improved-accessibility-for-passengers-on-thameslink/

 

[northwichcat]

Unless DfT intervenes, the continued use or otherwise of 323s is a commercial matter for the franchisee and bidders will have to decide whether to replace them with more 319s or something else on some or all of their routes. They will also have to satisfy Network Rail that if the replacements have longer sectional running times, the timetable can be adjusted to accommodate these without affecting performance.

The CCTV on the Northern 323s was funded by TfGM. A condition of that is that the 323s will be continued to be used in Greater Manchester unless replacement units are provided which have working CCTV from the outset. 323s are also the cheaper to operate (compared to 319s), so it's unlikely that a bidder will choose to replace the 323s with 319s unless DfT forces them.

In fact a bidder could propose taking on LM 323s once their existing lease ends, which could put DfT in a difficult position. Rejecting that proposal but saying they need to keep costs down would be hypocritical. However, accepting it would mean the next London Midland franchise would need more subsidy.

 

[driver_m]

Re-timing some of the Northern services by only 3 minutes would require Virgin to change the times of their services and it doesn't work that way - Virgin decide what paths they want and Northern have to fit their services around the Virgin ones.

That isn't true. Network Rail decides the paths, remember Virgin couldnt have an 0815 service for some time from piccadilly as there werent paths available. If Virgin had the sort of power you allude to then that would not have happened. The hadfields don't impact on Virgin services as they use separate lines. Any problems on the other lines could be negated by the fact that 319s can do 100 which would be more use (after Macclesfield in particular). Plus the Crewe line is able to regulate late services much better by its ability to loop trains at a few places.