Northern Tender for up to 450 units

[jonesy3001]

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #83 originally in this thread

This was published on Friday afternoon for a new tender for 450 units for northern.

SUPPLY OF NEW ROLLING STOCK AND MAINTENANCE SUPPORT SERVICES - Find a Tender

www.find-tender.service.gov.uk

The objective of this procurement is to enter into a framework agreement with a single supplier for the manufacture and supply of new rolling stock (with associated equipment) and associated technical support and spares supply services. This will enable NTL to replace significant quantities of its ageing fleet, enabling the avoidance of escalating costs associated with the operation, maintenance, repair, and leasing of an ageing fleet and delivering medium- and long-term value for the benefit of NTL, DfT, taxpayers and its customers. NTL will order rolling stock (and associated equipment) with accompanying technical support and spares supply services across multiple phases. The contracts for the first phase will be entered into simultaneously with entering into the framework agreement. NTL will separately procure an owning party to purchase each fleet of rolling stock and then lease the same to NTL. The owning party will also be party to each manufacture and supply agreement with the supplier. There may be different owning parties for each phase.

NTL, a Train Operating Company (TOC) that operates passenger rail services across the North of England, is undertaking this procurement process to appoint a single supplier to manufacture and supply rolling stock (and associated equipment) and to provide technical support and spares supply services across multiple phases within budget and to meet the overall objectives and priorities of NTL pursuant to a framework agreement.

It is anticipated throughout the life of the framework agreement that NTL may procure, across multiple call-offs, up to 450 units comprising of multiple vehicles.

The call-off contracts will be entered into in respect of 'phases' of rolling stock orders, comprising of (i) a manufacture and supply agreement and (ii) a technical support and spares supply agreement)). The first call-off contracts will be entered into simultaneously with the framework agreement. The manufacturing requirements are for multi-mode multiple units, including options to order further units and/or additional centre-vehicles and/or a mix of multi-mode and electric multiple units.

In addition, the supplier will supply spares and special tools to accompany the fleet, and (subject to the exercise of options) the supply of mock-ups and a cab simulator.

Subsequent phases will be required to replace further trains in NTL's existing fleet over a period of time.

For each phase, NTL will also separately procure an owning party to purchase each fleet of rolling stock and then lease the same to NTL. The owning party will also be party to each manufacture and supply agreement with the supplier. There may be different owning parties for each phase.

It is anticipated the successful Tenderer will offer:

a. the manufacture and supply of new rolling stock (being multi-mode multiple units) with a minimum design life of 35-year (from acceptance of the units) that meets NTL's train technical specification (inclusive of design, testing, obtaining relevant approvals, training, delivery and acceptance of the equipment and provision of warranties).

b. multi-mode multiple units that may be subject to in-life decarbonisation by the supplier being required to convert the units to become either (i) electric multiple units, or (ii) (following the installation of additional on-board battery capacity and associated infrastructure by the supplier) battery-electric multiple units. Such conversion will be triggered by NTL or the owner. Future phases (other than the initial order under phase 1) may be built directly as electric multiple units or battery-electric multiple units.

c. technical support and spares supply services, including: technical support services (general technical advice; technical investigations; train failure investigation; maintaining an adequate supply of spares, special tools and parts at designated depots; maintenance, overhaul and repair of spares); supply of additional spares, special tools and parts; and additional services.

d. demonstrable delivery of social value.

NTL has chosen to run the procurement under competitive dialogue under Regulation 48 of the Utilities Contract Regulations 2016.

The term of the framework agreement will be 8 years. Call-off contracts for manufacture and supply agreement and technical support and spares supply agreement entered into pursuant to the framework agreement will exceed the duration of the framework agreement.

 

[td97]

Key quotes

It is anticipated throughout the life of the framework agreement that NTL may procure, across multiple call-offs, up to 450 units comprising of multiple vehicles.

The call-off contracts will be entered into in respect of 'phases' of rolling stock orders, comprising of (i) a manufacture and supply agreement and (ii) a technical support and spares supply agreement)). The first call-off contracts will be entered into simultaneously with the framework agreement. The manufacturing requirements are for multi-mode multiple units, including options to order further units and/or additional centre-vehicles and/or a mix of multi-mode and electric multiple units.

b. multi-mode multiple units that may be subject to in-life decarbonisation by the supplier being required to convert the units to become either (i) electric multiple units, or (ii) (following the installation of additional on-board battery capacity and associated infrastructure by the supplier) battery-electric multiple units. Such conversion will be triggered by NTL or the owner. Future phases (other than the initial order under phase 1) may be built directly as electric multiple units or battery-electric multiple units.

It sounds like the units will initially be bi-mode with diesel plus 25kV or battery, with the capability of having diesel removed through conversion to fully electric or further batteries added.

Did the CAF contract for 195/331s include the option for further centre units?

 

[jonesy3001]

Key quotes


It sounds like the units will initially be bi-mode with diesel plus 25kV or battery, with the capability of having diesel removed through conversion to fully electric or further batteries added.

Did the CAF contract for 195/331s include the option for further centre units?

Did a while ago when arriva still had the contract unsure if it's still going under the OLR one and the MD did say that he wanted a standard fleet at the time.

 

[Haywain]

It sounds like the units will initially be bi-mode with diesel plus 25kV or battery,

Or Hydrogen?

 

[HSTEd]

Wibbleometer is definitely going into overdrive again.
Just have to wait for the announcement before assuming things.

This was published on Friday afternoon for a new tender for 450 units for northern.

SUPPLY OF NEW ROLLING STOCK AND MAINTENANCE SUPPORT SERVICES - Find a Tender

www.find-tender.service.gov.uk

This tender sounds dangerously sensible.

Wouldn't 450 units be essentially the entire Northern fleet?

It appears to be the Irish 22000 solution, which I heartily approve of.

EDIT:

it's a hundred units more than the entire Northern Rail fleet, so I suppose it could be some sort of neo-IEP project? 450 units comprising multiple carriages is a lot.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This tender sounds dangerously sensible.

Wouldn't 450 units be essentially the entire Northern fleet?

It appears to be the Irish 22000 solution, which I heartily approve of.

EDIT:

it's a hundred units more than the entire Northern Rail fleet, so I suppose it could be some sort of neo-IEP project? 450 units comprising multiple carriages is a lot.

It sounds very good indeed. The only thing sensible it seems to lack is a requirement for the floor height to be 960mm and a sliding step to be provided to close the boarding gap, features which I'm sure all suppliers would offer with a potential 450 unit order given that all suppliers do offer it for mainland Europe.

It's a maximum of 450, though - it may well be that they've set it high so they aren't stung for extra orders if, for instance, it's decided to use the framework to replace GWR's 15x and 16x fleet too, plus Chiltern are another TOC potentially in need of such units.

Thinking on, is 450 about the size of the current pre-privatisation DMU fleet across the whole of England? (I doubt they'd get involved in ScotRail).

 

[3RDGEN]

It sounds very good indeed. The only thing sensible it seems to lack is a requirement for the floor height to be 960mm and a sliding step to be provided to close the boarding gap, features which I'm sure all suppliers would offer with a potential 450 unit order given that all suppliers do offer it for mainland Europe.

It's a maximum of 450, though - it may well be that they've set it high so they aren't stung for extra orders if, for instance, it's decided to use the framework to replace GWR's 15x and 16x fleet too, plus Chiltern are another TOC potentially in need of such units.

Thinking on, is 450 about the size of the current pre-privatisation DMU fleet across the whole of England? (I doubt they'd get involved in ScotRail).

Doesn't say what size units but 450 would replace all the English 15x / 16x fleets at Northern, EMR, Chiltern, GWR and SWR. Makes sense doing one request via OLR Northern so the DfT can control it.

From what's been said its likely one train type but in different formats for local and longer distance services.

 

[Snow1964]

The manufacturing requirements are for multi-mode multiple units, including options to order further units and/or additional centre-vehicles and/or a mix of multi-mode and electric multiple units.

In addition, the supplier will supply spares and special tools to accompany the fleet, and (subject to the exercise of options) the supply of mock-ups and a cab simulator.

When I first read it, thought it was 450 vehicles, then realised it was 450 units (so at least 900 vehicles, assuming no one car units)

Somebody is being wise, options for additional centre vehicles

Clearly looking to replace some EMUs too

SUPPLY OF NEW ROLLING STOCK AND MAINTENANCE SUPPORT SERVICES - Find a Tender

www.find-tender.service.gov.uk

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unlikely to be any 2s either, the kit on an EMU/bimode wouldn't fit easily under a 2-car unit. Northern's 2-car needs can, as intended, be satisfied by way of a cascade of 2-car 195s to lines like Ormskirk and Colne.

 

[brad465]

Is this similar to the tender Southeastern put out that is rumoured to have been shelved (i.e. a request has been made but there is no guarantee it will be approved)?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is this similar to the tender Southeastern put out that is rumoured to have been shelved (i.e. a request has been made but there is no guarantee it will be approved)?

It's a tender. If all of the responses are too expensive or they change their minds then yes, I guess it's possible it isn't pursued.

 

[Snow1964]

Is this similar to the tender Southeastern put out that is rumoured to have been shelved (i.e. a request has been made but there is no guarantee it will be approved)?

Yes it's a tender, it's also a framework agreement with call offs (similar to how French, Italian, Austrian railways now doing it), allowing standard design so not always faffing with testing and certification and their associated delays.

Although it is in name of Northern trains, the sheer size of it, upto 450 units (so likely to be 900+ vehicles, maybe nearer 2000 vehicles if 4 or 5 car) suggests Northern might be leading on behalf of proposed GBR, or have quietly set up provisional side deals with others (GWR or SoutheEastern etc) to be partners in same framework.

No guarantees it will happen, or if it does, how many vehicles get taken up is unknown. Presumably the idea is if there is potentially 1000+ vehicles price is going to be long more competitive than small order.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes it's a tender, it's also a framework agreement with call offs (similar to how French, Italian, Austrian railways now doing it), allowing standard design so not always faffing with testing and certification.

Although it is in name of Northern trains, the sheer size of it, upto 450 units (so likely to be 900+ vehicles, maybe nearer 2000 vehicles if 4 or 5 car) suggests Northern might be leading on behalf of proposed GBR, or have quietly set up provisional side deals with others (GWR or SoutheEastern etc) to be partners in same framework.

If the bids are for conventional 24m units they will be a minimum of 3-car so as to have enough space for both diesel and electric kit. There are no 2-car AC EMUs in the UK for that reason. Thus at least 1350 vehicles if ordered in full, though I'd suspect there will also be at least some 4s.

If Stadler a 3-section unit would be possible which is around 2-car length, though. More likely existing 2-car 195s will be sufficient for Northern's branch line needs, though - that was the whole reason 2s and 3s rather than 3s and 4s were ordered, was it not?

 

[Snow1964]

If the bids are for conventional 24m units they will be a minimum of 3-car so as to have enough space for both diesel and electric kit. There are no 2-car AC EMUs in the UK for that reason. Thus at least 1350 vehicles if ordered in full, though I'd suspect there will also be at least some 4s.

If Stadler a 3-section unit would be possible which is around 2-car length, though.

It seems to be open on vehicle length, and could even be articulated. Looks like electric units, but initially with option to have diesel power packs, that can later become straight EMUs or battery EMUs

b. multi-mode multiple units that may be subject to in-life decarbonisation by the supplier being required to convert the units to become either (i) electric multiple units, or (ii) (following the installation of additional on-board battery capacity and associated infrastructure by the supplier) battery-electric multiple units. Such conversion will be triggered by NTL or the owner. Future phases (other than the initial order under phase 1) may be built directly as electric multiple units or battery-electric multiple units.

My money is on version of Stadler Flirt, or Siemens Verve (the updated class 380 used in Scotland).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd not bet on any manufacturer. That's such a large potential order that I suspect all the builders will be interested, including even really unlikely ones like the Chinese offerings.

 

[Mikey C]

Politically, I'd be staggered if the majority if not all the order didn't go to suppliers with UK factories.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Politically, I'd be staggered if the majority if not all the order didn't go to suppliers with UK factories.

It's big enough that another manufacturer could build a UK factory as part of it, just like Hitachi did for the Intercity Express Programme.

 

[ainsworth74]

Politically, I'd be staggered if the majority if not all the order didn't go to suppliers with UK factories.

That'll be what this clause is for I suspect:

d. demonstrable delivery of social value.

It's big enough that another manufacturer could build a UK factory as part of it, just like Hitachi did for the IEP.

Please god no. We are barely able to justify the factories we've already got without adding another one in the mix!

 

[Bletchleyite]

That'll be what this clause is for I suspect:

Level boarding would also "demonstrably deliver social value".

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Level boarding would also "demonstrably deliver social value".

In terms of platform heights across Northern, how many are suitable for level boarding? There's certainly some big steps up across the network.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In terms of platform heights across Northern, how many are suitable for level boarding? There's certainly some big steps up across the network.

It's fairly obvious that low floor trains would make that better, even if it didn't achieve actual level boarding, thus there is no real disadvantage. Platform heights can be regularised to the UK standard over time. See Greater Anglia for how it's worked on a near-identical rural network.

 

[Energy]

It's fairly obvious that low floor trains would make that better, even if it didn't achieve actual level boarding, thus there is no real disadvantage. Platform heights can be regularised to the UK standard over time. See Greater Anglia for how it's worked on a near-identical rural network.

Greater Anglia had a fair few platform modifications to get it inline. Not impossible, fewer staffing requirements will make the treasury get its chequebook out.

 

[ainsworth74]

Level boarding would also "demonstrably deliver social value".

I suppose but considering the context that would feel a little odd if that was what was meant! I'd expect that to be included in the detailed tender documents personally.

It is anticipated the successful Tenderer will offer:

a. the manufacture and supply of new rolling stock (being multi-mode multiple units) with a minimum design life of 35-year (from acceptance of the units) that meets NTL's train technical specification (inclusive of design, testing, obtaining relevant approvals, training, delivery and acceptance of the equipment and provision of warranties).

b. multi-mode multiple units that may be subject to in-life decarbonisation by the supplier being required to convert the units to become either (i) electric multiple units, or (ii) (following the installation of additional on-board battery capacity and associated infrastructure by the supplier) battery-electric multiple units. Such conversion will be triggered by NTL or the owner. Future phases (other than the initial order under phase 1) may be built directly as electric multiple units or battery-electric multiple units.

c. technical support and spares supply services, including: technical support services (general technical advice; technical investigations; train failure investigation; maintaining an adequate supply of spares, special tools and parts at designated depots; maintenance, overhaul and repair of spares); supply of additional spares, special tools and parts; and additional services.

d. demonstrable delivery of social value.

 

[northwichcat]

The last thing that is needed is a commitment to a 1960s solution to the 21st century problem.

A local train uses about 2.5Kwh per vehicle mile. There are already buses and coaches with 300Kwh batteries under them - the going rate appears to be around 625kg/100Kwh.

There are more cost effective and faster solutions than a 60yr, £300bn rolling electrification programme.

Do you work for the DfT by any chance?!

I think it's a valid point to mention that technology is evolving. At one time an electric bus ran on overhead wires and was effectively a tram without the rails. Now some operators, including the council owned operator in Warrington, are moving towards a fleet of 100% battery buses, without worrying about lack of overhead wires or whether they'll need to come out of service for a recharge after a return working to Northwich.

What Chris Grayling proposed for the railways, as cheap alternatives to electrification weren't sustainable long term. However, that doesn't mean there aren't viable alternatives.

 

[HSTEd]

Doesn't say what size units but 450 would replace all the English 15x / 16x fleets at Northern, EMR, Chiltern, GWR and SWR. Makes sense doing one request via OLR Northern so the DfT can control it.

I think they would be likely to flush all the Class 195 (and the CAF EMU who's number escapes me now) to someone else and try to move Northern to an entirely uniform fleet.

The reduction in training burden and operational issues would be substantial. Only one set of stop boards to maintain, only one cab to train on etc etc etc. Every train operationally interchangeable with every other.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think they would be likely to flush all the Class 195 (and the CAF EMU who's number escapes me now) to someone else and try to move Northern to an entirely uniform fleet.

I don't. The 2-car 195s were specifically built so they could later be cascaded onto the quiet branch lines Northern have like Ormskirk, Headbolt Lane, the middle bit of the Cumbrian Coast, Morecambe etc - this is why Class 195 wasn't a 3 and 4-car build. These new units are unlikely to be shorter than 3x24m due to the amount of space underneath needed for both AC and diesel kit (unless they're Stadlers) and so putting them on those low demand diesel branches is a bit of a waste.

I'd expect everything diesel other than Class 195 to go, though, and possibly also 323s as they're getting on a bit now. 170s maybe, maybe not (it may make more sense to consolidate those on one TOC i.e. EMR as they aren't good on the stopping services Northern use them for - these routes are more suitable for 195s).

 

[northwichcat]

I think they would be likely to flush all the Class 195 (and the CAF EMU who's number escapes me now) to someone else and try to move Northern to an entirely uniform fleet.

The reduction in training burden and operational issues would be substantial. Only one set of stop boards to maintain, only one cab to train on etc etc etc. Every train operationally interchangeable with every other.

An upcoming election might affect what the government want to do. Saying that, promising the South West trains built in the last five years is significantly better than giving one area brand new trains, to release cascaded 150s or 319s for another.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

170s maybe, maybe not (it may make more sense to consolidate those on one TOC i.e. EMR as they aren't good on the stopping services Northern use them for - these routes are more suitable for 195s).

I have Northern as having 16 170s, compared to their 187 Sprinters, that's not a significant amount, surely they'd be best with EMR who seem to be collecting all the 170s.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I don't. The 2-car 195s were specifically built so they could later be cascaded onto the quiet branch lines Northern have like Ormskirk, Headbolt Lane, the middle bit of the Cumbrian Coast, Morecambe etc - this is why Class 195 wasn't a 3 and 4-car build. These new units are unlikely to be shorter than 3x24m due to the amount of space underneath needed for both AC and diesel kit (unless they're Stadlers) and so putting them on those low demand diesel branches is a bit of a waste.

I'd expect everything diesel other than Class 195 to go, though, and possibly also 323s as they're getting on a bit now. 170s maybe, maybe not (it may make more sense to consolidate those on one TOC i.e. EMR as they aren't good on the stopping services Northern use them for - these routes are more suitable for 195s).

Don't encourage them to get rid of the 323s!
And lines like Ormskirk/Kirkby could be getting Merseyrail 777s at some point, saving units slightly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Don't encourage them to get rid of the 323s!

They're old. Like the Turbos and Networkers, it's going to start being difficult to get spares due to them being early electronic designs. (It's easy enough to fabricate old style mechanical spares for stuff like PEP EMUs by contrast).

And lines like Ormskirk/Kirkby could be getting Merseyrail 777s at some point, saving units slightly.

Kirkby I suspect probably will. Ormskirk might, though personally while I can see them going to Burscough (basically just moving the buffer stops) I can't see them going past there. But there are plenty of others. There's no chance of Colne being anything other than 2.DMU for a very long time, if not forever. Same with the middle bit of the Cumbrian Coast, Bentham, Morecambe, the S&C at quiet times and so on, and I'm sure there are plenty on the East side of Northern too that I'm less familiar with, e.g. Barton-on-Humber.