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Northern/TPE Platform Extensions

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Class83

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With the electrification of various Transpennine Express and Northern Rail routes now progressing, has there been any indication that there will be a matching platform extension programme.

The TPE-Scotland electrifications has been relatively painless as they are running up the WCML, but there are obvious problems for TPE where several stations between Liverpool and Manchester can't cope with 6*23m formations. Are there similar issues between Manchester and Leeds or East of Doncaster?

Forward planning would suggest to me that all TPE diesel stations should be capable of 6*23m and electric stations either 6*23 or 8*20m. This would also impact Northern with the ability to run 8*20m services in the peaks.
 
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Crossover

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Stalybridge, Huddersfield and Dewsbury can all comfortably take double 185 sets. Not sure how the latter two would be with double 4 car 350's, however
 

61653 HTAFC

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P8 at Huddersfield probably can't take much more than 6x23m, as it was shortened in the late 1980s/early 1990s rebuild- P1 was also shortened slightly at the same time by being built out to create a new P2. The P8 situation is rather baffling as I can't see any reason why it was done.
 

fowler9

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I was at Liverpool South Parkway last week and they had again just locked out the back car of a 6 car 185 instead of squeezing everyone in the the front unit which is a welcome return to what was previously done. The platforms at South Parkway are not getting extended without a massive investment. Warrington Central and Birchwood already seem to cope just. Extending any of those aforementioned stations for 8 coach 350's will not happen and neither will 8 coach 350's in the near future so is probably irrelevant.
 

jopsuk

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Consider how much more would be needed if they'd got 4-car 380s instead of 350s. An 8-car 380 formation is a full 24m longer than an 8-car 350!
 

34D

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Since when have class 350's been confirmed for the future electrification through Huddersfield?
 

northwichcat

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Here are the platform extensions proposed in CP5 but they are mainly on lines which won't be electrified:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=79222

In another document (which forms part of the Ordsall Chord proposals and is locked so you can't copy and paste from it) the Manchester-Preston line comes up but at this stage Network Rail haven't proposed anything other than some 6 car workings will be required and if suitable EMUs aren't sourced then it may mean some 6 car DMU workings under the wires which may mean some platform lengthening at stations like Blackrod is required. I posted a link to these documents a few weeks ago but can't find the post now.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
P8 at Huddersfield probably can't take much more than 6x23m, as it was shortened in the late 1980s/early 1990s rebuild- P1 was also shortened slightly at the same time by being built out to create a new P2. The P8 situation is rather baffling as I can't see any reason why it was done.

I once alighted an 8 car 158 that stopped at platform 8 at Huddersfield and don't recall any announcement about not using certain doors when the train stopped. This was between when First TPE took over the franchise and 185s were delivered.
 
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Chris125

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The Ordsall Chord and the platforms at Oxford Road are both being designed for 8x23m.

Chris
 

northwichcat

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Since when have class 350's been confirmed for the future electrification through Huddersfield?

I don't think anything been's confirmed for North TPE but the below suggests there will not be an order for new EMUs for TPE.

Network Rail's Regional urban market study October 2013 said:
Rolling stock: Suburban services tend to be run by early
generation diesel stock with poor acceleration characteristics
and causing issues with passenger satisfaction. Interurban
services tend to be run by fast accelerating 100mph diesel stock.
Electrification is expected to cascade electric stock onto services
on this route.
 

abbo1234

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When the Blackpool North line has been electrified,which by the way needs extra capacity on bank holidays and during the illumination period.The use of two 4 car units would be ideal,unfortunately platforms like Chorley wont be long enough to take them,and at Poulton Le Fylde,plenty of money has just been spent shortening the platform!
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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I don't think anything been's confirmed for North TPE but the below suggests there will not be an order for new EMUs for TPE.

I think it's too early to be certain about what TP will get.
There are 3 options: (a) more 319s; (b) more newer "southern" cascades (377, 387, 350); or (c) a new order.
It will probably be left to the new franchise bidders next year to work out what's best, but I wouldn't be surprised if Manchester-Blackpool services in 2016 were all-319s.
Any new stock wouldn't be around till TP North electrification was ready in 2018.
Until the destination of all the cascaded stock is known (eg how many are going to GW), there will be a reluctance to order new.
 
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Emyr

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From memory, 6x23 (two 185 at 71m each) fit quite comfortably, so 8x20.4m = 163.2m should just about squeeze in.

Do 350s have SDO?
 

swt_passenger

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Do 350s have SDO?

AFAIK Desiro UK EMUs in their 'as delivered' spec only have 'unit de-select' (UDS). SWT's fleet are only now being converted to an Auto SDO system that can work to an individual carriage level. Having now done the development work I'd expect adding it to other units such as 350s would bring economies of scale...
 
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lancastrian

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How long are Bolton's platforms? Can they fit 8 x 20m (two 350s)?

As far as I am aware the platforms at Bolton have not been shortened. When I used to work there in the 1970's they used to take 12 car classical DMU's with no problem on what is now platforms 3 & 4. These are the two main platforms at Bolton.
 

thealexweb

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As far as I am aware the platforms at Bolton have not been shortened. When I used to work there in the 1970's they used to take 12 car classical DMU's with no problem on what is now platforms 3 & 4. These are the two main platforms at Bolton.

Platform 4 has been shortened by a few carriages since the 70's. Platform 3 have remained consistent in length as far as I am aware.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
According to the sectional appendix, platform 3 is 308m (Up) / 222m (Down);
Platform 4 is 252m.

So taking in to modern standards would could the platforms hold? A nine car pendo?

Virgin and First both promised one service to / from London Euston by 2016. Really hope they don't break that pledge.
 

MidnightFlyer

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So taking in to modern standards would could the platforms hold? A nine car pendo?

A 9-car 390 is 217.5m, so yes, it would fit on both 3 and 4.

Edit - an 11-car I make to be 265.3m, so it would fit eastbound only.
 
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Jonny

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Well, if they are planning to use TPE services to Newcastle to provide the off-peak services at Chester-le-Street and they want to run 2x Class 185 or 2x EMU throughout then they would need to lengthen platforms at CLS. As an aside, they would also not be able to fit within platforms 9 to 11 (the ones they usually use) at Newcastle.

As to whether such train lengths would be necessary for that leg of the service? Probably not but that's another matter altogether...
 

61653 HTAFC

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On the North Transpennine 'core' (Leeds-Manchester) the only issues for TPE in the short/medium term will be the stations between Huddersfield and Manchester that they'll have to serve with the 'semi-fast' services once the Northern stopper is withdrawn to allow 6TPH. Currently the services could only be run as 1x170 from TPE's fleet due to the short platforms at Slaithwaite in particular and also Marsden P3- Though these are due to be extended as part of the 'Northern Hub' works.
 

northwichcat

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On the North Transpennine 'core' (Leeds-Manchester) the only issues for TPE in the short/medium term will be the stations between Huddersfield and Manchester that they'll have to serve with the 'semi-fast' services once the Northern stopper is withdrawn to allow 6TPH. Currently the services could only be run as 1x170 from TPE's fleet due to the short platforms at Slaithwaite in particular and also Marsden P3- Though these are due to be extended as part of the 'Northern Hub' works.

Network Rail are to lengthen platforms at Slaithwaite and Marsden to be able to take trains up to 96m in length - that would cover a pair of 170s pre-electrification and a 333 post-electrification or obviously shorter trains like a 185 or a 319.
 

Crossover

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Well, Marsden p3 won't take much extending...just fell a tree and plonk it on one end...that's how the current platform is built :lol:
 

BantamMenace

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Network Rail are to lengthen platforms at Slaithwaite and Marsden to be able to take trains up to 96m in length - that would cover a pair of 170s pre-electrification and a 333 post-electrification or obviously shorter trains like a 185 or a 319.

Did network rail ever quote that it fit a 333 specifically or is that just an example you have used. I'd find it highly unlikely that they'd ever be used on these services due to how they were funded and the contract small print.

Although i will add that they've an exceptionally good unit and a modern version would be good for trans pennine stoppers due to their good acceleration/hill climbing ability
 

northwichcat

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Did network rail ever quote that it fit a 333 specifically or is that just an example you have used. I'd find it highly unlikely that they'd ever be used on these services due to how they were funded and the contract small print.

Although i will add that they've an exceptionally good unit and a modern version would be good for trans pennine stoppers due to their good acceleration/hill climbing ability

No Network Rail specified the length and I have a diesel and an electric example of formations that length.

With Network Rail having no idea what EMUs would be used on North TPE they have assumed the acceleration and top speed of the units used on express services to York/Newcastle would be similar to (if not better than) a class 380 while for electric semi-fasts and Huddersfield-Leeds stoppers would be similar to (if not better than) a class 333. However, they do stress that's just an illustrative example and not indicative of which rolling stock will be used.

The 333s have been funded weirdly. After receiving the extra centre cars for the 333s WYPTE couldn't afford to pay for the centre cars in full and had to be bailed out by SYPTE, who feared that if the centre cars were taken back that Doncaster services would no longer get the 4 car 321s.

I don't know if there's anything to stop them being used on Manchester to Selby/Hull semi-fasts given they would still serve West Yorkshire commuters (Marsden, Slaithwaite, Huddersfield, Dewsbury and Leeds all being West Yorks stations.) Although I think a refit with a high density 2+2 layout (like the EMT 158s) would be appropriate if they were used for that purpose.) Given by the time North TPE electrification is complete the 333s will be around half way through their lives it would be perfect timing for a full internal refit.
 
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61653 HTAFC

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Network Rail are to lengthen platforms at Slaithwaite and Marsden to be able to take trains up to 96m in length - that would cover a pair of 170s pre-electrification and a 333 post-electrification or obviously shorter trains like a 185 or a 319.

I know that it's planned to extend Marsden and Slaithwaite (Slawit), but when it's going to happen is another matter- We need it NOW! Several of the current stoppers are 4/6-car West of Standedge, but the rear one or two units has to be locked out at Greenfield. <(

Well, Marsden p3 won't take much extending...just fell a tree and plonk it on one end...that's how the current platform is built :lol:

Quite a few of the 1980s/early 1990s WYPTE-sponsored reopenings used that rudimentary timber platform type (Slawit; Deighton; Berry Brow; Outwood; and both Marsden & Mirfield's third platforms) which presumably kept costs down... though I wouldn't be surprised if any extensions now have to be a bit more substantial- just hope it doesn't require the whole structure to be replaced as that will push the costs through the roof!

No Network Rail specified the length and I have a diesel and an electric example of formations that length.

With Network Rail having no idea what EMUs would be used on North TPE they have assumed the acceleration and top speed of the units used on express services to York/Newcastle would be similar to (if not better than) a class 380 while for electric semi-fasts and Huddersfield-Leeds stoppers would be similar to (if not better than) a class 333. However, they do stress that's just an illustrative example and not indicative of which rolling stock will be used.

The 333s have been funded weirdly. After receiving the extra centre cars for the 333s WYPTE couldn't afford to pay for the centre cars in full and had to be bailed out by SYPTE, who feared that if the centre cars were taken back that Doncaster services would no longer get the 4 car 321s.

I don't know if there's anything to stop them being used on Manchester to Selby/Hull semi-fasts given they would still serve West Yorkshire commuters (Marsden, Slaithwaite, Huddersfield, Dewsbury and Leeds all being West Yorks stations.) Although I think a refit with a high density 2+2 layout (like the EMT 158s) would be appropriate if they were used for that purpose.) Given by the time North TPE electrification is complete the 333s will be around half way through their lives it would be perfect timing for a full internal refit.

There's not even enough 333s to run all the services they were ordered for though. Round about 2000-ish, Metro tried to get the go-ahead (from I think the SRA) for a further 4 or 6 (can't remember which) 333s to replace the 321s. This would have given a uniform fleet for West Yorkshire electrics for a while at least, but we'd still need more than that to cover all the new electrification schemes and we can't get any more 333s. (We could have the 332s from Heathrow Express though) :idea:
In any case the 333s might not be on their current Airedale/Wharfedale routes in the longer term if usage continues to grow, due to the fact that platforms 1&2 at Shipley can't realistically be extended beyond 6x23m. If services of this length are required regularly then either the 333s need to lose the 4th car or they need to be deployed elsewhere with something coming in to replace them. 323s would be ideal (indeed the original Airedale/Wharfedale electrification plans proposed a further order of 323s that might have saved the Hunslet plant in Leeds) and would bring them 'home'.

It does make sense to use a 4x23m unit like the 333s as a 'prototype' for future planning though- making some of those platforms any longer would probably be too expensive and a bit of an overkill.
 
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