Northern's FREE trains into Manchester

[TTI]

I popped into Manchester today but see this every Saturday:
Trains are packed going into Manchester from the suburbs, only half the people have bothered to buy tickets as they are regularly proved to be a "waste of time" as the guards haven't got a chance of getting through on Saturdays any more than one coach between stops, so can only stay in the middle/or the back. And there's virtually no barrier checks at Manchester Piccadilly at weekends in the main station. When there is, the ticket queue on a Saturday is always at least 30-to-40 deep, proving how widespread the problem is.

Now that its Christmas shopping time, it's even worse.

The TOCs only seem to be interested in targeting the Monday-Friday commuters, especially Northern. Whilst Virgin & Cross Country don't really bother at all.

Why do Northern show utter laziness all round for this, even failing to provide basic facilities for buying tickets (eg: TVMs) or operating too many single-shift ticket offices (which close at 1300hrs) at very busy stations such as Handforth, Heaton Chapel and all but Heald Green on the airport line).

All we hear is TOCs reducing ticket office opening hours (and staff if they can) and 'gerrymandering' this as "due to the recession", so something is inherently wrong if they can't be bothered to collect Revenue and rather just pay lip service to it and let their relatively high subsidies roll in on a plate.

Anyone concur? or have any thoughts?

 

[323235]

People also easily escape the barriers by going up onto the footbridge and down another platform.

There's absolutly nothing in place to prevent this.

 

[yorkie]

Some TOCs are disgracefully bad at providing adequate ticket issuing facilities. Compare EMT at Sheffield with EC at York - the difference is incredible! There are about 4 machines outside the ticket office in York, about 10 inside, and the queues for the desk are not too long. At Sheffield there's about 3 machines in the entire station and the queues are horrendous!

Northern do not like providing ticket machines, I think they prefer guards to collect on board. But some trains need more than just 1 guard checking tickets. If Northern want to collect more revenue they need to employ more staff. It would pay for itself.

Also where practicable it is better for the driver to do the doors so that the conductor can continue checking tickets and do the whole train rather than stay in the cab because of the short distance between stops. However Bob Crowe and friends don't like the idea of conductors being unable to hide in back cabs and threaten to have a major wobbler when this is proposed. (see Airdrie-Bathgate topic!)

 

[alan]

Defending EMT they did recently install several new TVM (pretty sure it has at least 6 on the concourse and a further one operated by northern at the back entrance, and I've bought tickets from a member of staff while waiting in the queue with them using the same piece of equipment used by on board train managers. Granted more TVM would be good but I’m not sure they would be space?

 

[TTI]

....and the ticket office at Manchester Piccadilly (operated by Virgin Trains) used to be 24hrs, but at some point in 2008? this was reduced to 0430-2230.

I am surprised TPE didn't have something to say about this as they operate out of there 24hrs.

And, how many BIG ticket offices has anyone seen close early? (far too early), like Wigan NW, Stockport, Preston.

Once again, most TOCs are "lazy" and would rather do the "minimalist" and collect subsidies for no effort.
This is morally wrong and irresponsible to the fare-paying public.

 

[Max]

Defending EMT they did recently install several new TVM (pretty sure it has at least 6 on the concourse and a further one operated by northern at the back entrance, and I've bought tickets from a member of staff while waiting in the queue with them using the same piece of equipment used by on board train managers. Granted more TVM would be good but I’m not sure they would be space?

EMT provide 4 machines, Northern provide 2. It's still totally inadequate for a station of Sheffield's size, and the queues at busy times are shocking, a fact which I can confirm as I commute to Chesterfield 4 days a week. At least twice now on Friday afternoons EMT have had to make announcements on the stations that discounted tickets can be purchased onboard due to the long queues at the machines/ticket office, and a friend who arrived 40 minutes early for her train nearly missed it because there are only 4 machines that you can collect pre-booked tickets on. If I hadn't been there to help her to the platform she would almost certainly have missed it.

If EMT's penalty fares scheme is to be effective this shambles has to be sorted, otherwise there will be mass anger from passengers who either miss their trains or are penalty fared because they have no way of purchasing a ticket in a reasonable length of time.

 

[yorkie]

EMT's PF scheme does not conform to SRA (now DfT - but it was the SRA who wrote them) guidelines. It is questionable whether it is legal. But, of course, who is going to challenge them in court?

 

[Lampshade]

To be fair, my hatred of Stagecoach in general would make me challenge them in court. Are they going to be PF'ing all passengers with no tickets? Or just EMT ones?

 

[yorkie]

To be fair, my hatred of Stagecoach in general would make me challenge them in court. Are they going to be PF'ing all passengers with no tickets? Or just EMT ones?

EMT can only implement a PF scheme for their own trains. They cannot PF any other operators' customers.

 

[313103]

Also where practicable it is better for the driver to do the doors so that the conductor can continue checking tickets and do the whole train rather than stay in the cab because of the short distance between stops. However Bob Crowe and friends don't like the idea of conductors being unable to hide in back cabs and threaten to have a major wobbler when this is proposed. (see Airdrie-Bathgate topic!)

All you need to say yorkie is that you want the companies to do widespread DOO! Nothing wrong in admitting that. But i think if you clearly read the original post, the Guard cant even get through the whole train, so whether the driver operated it in DOO would make absolutely no difference. So the Guard has no chance to go and hide in the back cab because he has to deal with the angry and frustrated passengers who didn't want to pay in the first place.

Why Oh Why cant people spell BOB CROW's name correctly? The amount of times I've seen his name spelt incorrectly does my head, its the same as when people spell my name with the i in front of the e and sanders instead of saunders.:-x

 

[Aictos]

All you need to say yorkie is that you want the companies to do widespread DOO! Nothing wrong in admitting that. But i think if you clearly read the original post, the Guard cant even get through the whole train, so whether the driver operated it in DOO would make absolutely no difference. So the Guard has no chance to go and hide in the back cab because he has to deal with the angry and frustrated passengers who didn't want to pay in the first place.

Well said, if the staff member can't walk though the train to check tickets as it's rammed to the rafters with passengers, what's the staff member supposed to do?

It's all very well thinking that DOO is the best thing ever but it's not, I'm sure you could ask the majority of the drivers if they prefer being on their own or having a second member of staff, you would be surprised by the answer.

Anyway, a lot of it is down to the TOCs blaming the recession for the cuts in the booking offices, take the TVMs at my station which for the past year alone have been exact change only or credit card.

What do you do if the only money on you is a £10 note and you just want a £2.90 ticket? You can't buy it as the TVM states exact change only so run the risk of being PF.

Or what if the TVMs run out of tickets which the ones at my station have managed to do so in the past, there's no PERTIS machine as it got removed when the gateline got installed which regards to the removal of the PERTIS was a mistake.

Or when the booking office is closed and platform staff aren't allowed nor trained up to restock the TVMs even if it's just ticket stocks you're putting in as it's strictly restricted to booking office staff only.

There might some other problem, say there's a member of staff from Virgin Trains who lives in Hertford and wants to travel to Stevenage and wants to get a priv ticket - he can only buy such a ticket when the booking office or when the gateline staff are willing to sell tickets as some staff refuse to sell tickets even though that's technically part of their job!

If there's no possible way to buy the ticket on the day, what does the platform staff do? Just advise him to buy the ticket at his destination and hope he doesn't come across a jobsworth revenue staff member who PF him without checking from staff from where this staff member started his journey.

Don't get me wrong, there are some booking offices which are fairly quiet so a reduction in opening hours wouldn't be so bad but doing the same to busier stations is a no brainer.

 

[yorkie]

As I've said several times before, I am totally against one person trains, and I always will be. However it makes sense for drivers to be able to do doors, so that the conductor can concentrate on checking tickets and providing customer service and not get bogged down into doing doors, which means on busy routes tickets can't be checked. There are not really that many trains where a conductor physically cannot check tickets.

At the very least, drivers should be able to open doors, as is the case with Voyagers. At least that gives conductors more of a chance to do revenue duties without delaying the train.

There is no way anyone can argue that the SWT suburban style of having a guard in the back cab who is invisible to the customer, not checking tickets and just reading the 'paper between doing the doors, is better than the FSR method of having someone patrol the train regularly, acting as a deterrent against bad behaviour.

It's all very well thinking that DOO is the best thing ever but it's not, I'm sure you could ask the majority of the drivers if they prefer being on their own or having a second member of staff, you would be surprised by the answer.

Why do you suggest that I want drivers to work "on their own" when I have consistently stated, several times, that I am totally opposed to that? That's not really fair.

 

[Aictos]

There is no way anyone can argue that the SWT suburban style of having a guard in the back cab who is invisible to the customer, not checking tickets and just reading the 'paper between doing the doors, is better than the FSR method of having someone patrol the train regularly, acting as a deterrent against bad behaviour.

I can't comment on SWT services but I've used FSR stoppers quite a lot this year and the guard came though checking tickets after every stop which is a lot better then just sitting in the back cab, although I must stress I don't think every guard is like that.

I got a Liverpool Street to Peterborough via Ipswich service once as I had a permit to travel and thought I might as use it to get home so between Liverpool Street and Ipswich, there was no sign of the guard coming though even though it wasn't full and he could easily do so however from Ipswich to Peterborough, the next guard actually was more visible as he was going though making ticket checks and litter picking.

Which goes to prove my point about there being two types of guards, the lazy ones which just like to read papers in the back cab and these who actually get on with their job and do it very well.

Why do you suggest that I want drivers to work "on their own" when I have consistently stated, several times, that I am totally opposed to that? That's not really fair.

Well by addressing your post:

Also where practicable it is better for the driver to do the doors so that the conductor can continue checking tickets and do the whole train rather than stay in the cab because of the short distance between stops.

Guards no longer are Guards as such but rather become Ticket Inspectors or Revenue Protection Inspectors with the responsibility for the doors going to the driver so more or less DOO but with the guard being renamed to RPI or such just working on nothing else but tickets.

More staff on the trains would be nice but try telling FCC that!

 

[yorkie]

Yes it is technically driver only operation but I only agree with driver only operation when there is another member of staff present, and I do not agree with random RPIs appearing and attempting to PF and hassling customers and some people get away with it because no RPI appears, rather than a conductor that goes through the train regularly checking/issuing tickets. The Strathclyde and TfL methods are totally different in that respect.

The problem with the term DOO is that it doesn't differentiate between a system where it is driver only operated but with someone doing tickets, and a system where the driver is the only member of staff on the train.

Bob likes to imply that DOO means guards losing their jobs and he likes to imply that it means customers are at risk because there are less staff on board. But in Strathclyde that is totally untrue!

"It's all very well thinking that DOO is the best thing ever but it's not, I'm sure you could ask the majority of the drivers if they prefer being on their own or having a second member of staff, you would be surprised by the answer."

It's this quote where it suggested that DOO means the driver being on their own, and I totally agree that it's not acceptable for drivers to be on their own. I don't think I'd be surprised at the answer as I am sure most drivers would rather not be the only member of staff on the train, and I can certainly see where people like O L Leigh are coming from (as detailed in the other topic on the issue!).

I am on your side, and with 313103, O L Leigh and others that single person manning of trains is not a good idea. I will never support it, I can assure you! I hope that clarifies

 

[Aictos]

Yes it is technically driver only operation but I only agree with driver only operation when there is another member of staff present, and I do not agree with random RPIs appearing and attempting to PF and hassling customers and some people get away with it because no RPI appears, rather than a conductor that goes through the train regularly checking/issuing tickets. The Strathclyde and TfL methods are totally different in that respect.

The problem with the term DOO is that it doesn't differentiate between a system where it is driver only operated but with someone doing tickets, and a system where the driver is the only member of staff on the train.

Bob likes to imply that DOO means guards losing their jobs and he likes to imply that it means customers are at risk because there are less staff on board. But in Strathclyde that is totally untrue!
It's this quote where it suggested that DOO means the driver being on their own, and I totally agree that it's not acceptable for drivers to be on their own. I don't think I'd be surprised at the answer as I am sure most drivers would rather not be the only member of staff on the train, and I can certainly see where people like O L Leigh are coming from (as detailed in the other topic on the issue!).

I am on your side, and with 313103, O L Leigh and others that single person manning of trains is not a good idea. I will never support it, I can assure you! I hope that clarifies

It's good to have friendly debate here, yes I do see your points which you have so carefully clarified.

I thank you for taking the time to do so,

 

[Lampshade]

I travelled into Manchester on the Buxton line yesterday, where all stations are unstaffed (this was gone 18:00). The guard came round selling tickets up to New Mills Newtown but at no further stations (Disley, Middlewood, Hazel Grove etc). The train was quite heavily loaded by the time we reached Piccadilly and people just walked out. The G4S 'barriers' weren't in place and a considerable number of people, let's say 40 as a round number didn't have tickets.

TOCs complain that they're losing revenue but yet don't bother making the effort to minimise it, rather than just screaming 'ticket gates NOW', they should actually make it possible to buy a ticket.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I am firmly convinced that TOCs are not remotely interested in "difficult" revenue. For example:

Travel from Leeds to Liverpool Monday to Friday Morning (lots of season ticket holders and high value business fares):

Leeds - Ticket Gates
Huddersfield - Manned Barrier
Manchester Picc - G4S Barrier on TPE used platforms (but not always on Northern platforms except Overbridge)
Manchester Oxford Road - Ticket Gates which get left open when busy
Warrington - Morning Peak Manned Barriers
Liverpool - Daytime Manned Barriers on selected platforms.

Now do the same journey Weekend daytimes and midweek evenings (lots of low value fares, ****heads, sports hooligans, families on cheapo tickets etc):

Leeds - Ticket Gates, often left open late evening
Huddersfield - Nothing
Manchester Picc - Nothing
Manchester Oxford Rd - Gates left open
Warrington - Nothing
Liverpool - occasional manned barriers depending on what mood they appear to be in, certain platforms only.

The result is that the weekend trains - which are far busier, and the evening trains with all the problem passengers and fare dodgers don't get checked as well. Why? No pre journey checks mean all the scumbags get on. Guard gets abuse from said scumbags who try everything to avoid paying. Guard can't physically do all the tickets, even if he wanted to.

I had this case in point last night. I left Manchester at 2107 going to Liverpool. Left Manchester full and standing to bursting point, I physically couldn't get down the train. I managed to get down after Warrington, but only managed 1 coach all the way to Liverpool due to large numbers of people without tickets and large numbers of arguments with a wide variety of people as I was actually making them pay rather than just giving them a free ride. Exactly the same on the return, especially between Manchester and Stalybridge. In the end, I took twice as much money as I would expect to take on a morning peak train, but It was hard work, I had been called every name under the sun during the journeys, had fast food thrown at me, got pushed, had every swear word I can think of hurled at me etc etc - all for just making people actually pay the £4.10 or £2.50 singles for their journey!

But this is what happens on the evenings. Where are Revenue Protection? At Home. Where are the barriers? Left open or at home. Where is the support from the company? Non existent. Where is the interest in actually protecting this revenue? Non Existent. Yet come Monday morning at 0700 the barriers are all out with revenue protection everywhere - ah but those juicy high value business fares are far easier to collect and protect.

Repeat this situation across the whole country then you can see the problem! It then breeds an attitude problem - people expect to get a free ride after dark or between certain stations, and then fly off the handle when they are actually asked to pay.

 

[yorkie]

The TOCs claim barriers increase security, but barriers are left open at times when they are really needed from that aspect! In reality, barriers are about maximising revenue at busy times. There should be a rule stating that where barriers are in place they must be manned between 7pm and the time of the last train, especially on Saturdays, as that is the time they are needed most!

It seems that there's more chance of a jobsworth at a barrier moaning at a legitimate fare-paying customer doing a break of journey or a slightly indirect (yet valid) route, than there is of them stopping a drunk abusive passenger and that's not right.

 

[Lampshade]

I think we all know the 'security' element of barriers is just something TOCs say to gain support for gating from naive councils and user groups. A counter point is that a greater amount of people on the station is a natural deterrant to anti social behaviour and at the end of the day, even passengers who have paid the fare can misbehave.

My mum and sister were travelling back from Manchester one night, I'd seen them off from platform 14 at Piccadilly (platform ticket ) and there were three guys causing a right scene on the platform, smoking, shouting, swearing etc. They then got on the same train and started a fight with each other half way to Preston, passengers tried to intervene but got threatened by one of them, claiming to be carrying a 'weapon'. The 'brilliant' (as my mum said) guard came down and split them up and upon arrival at Preston kept the doors locked until the BTP were there.

If there's one argument for keeping guards on trains then surely this is it?

 

[royaloak]

I am a firm believer in the fact that where gates are fitted they should be in operation from start of service to end of service, just as London Underground do.

 

[Mojo]

And, how many BIG ticket offices has anyone seen close early? (far too early), like Wigan NW, Stockport, Preston.

Bristol Temple Meads closes quite early for a major station - 21.30. Parkway closes even earlier at 20.00.

Funny when you consider stations like Tyseley in Birmingham, with under 70,000 journeys per year are open from first train until last train, Mon-Sun.

 

[43034 The Black Horse]

People also easily escape the barriers by going up onto the footbridge and down another platform.

And No cranks have ever done this at places like Padd - . It's not as bad when they at least have some form of piece....

 

[142094]

Taking Leeds as an example, I wonder how many people in the rush hour (and other times if they are lucky) don't buy a ticket at the origin station but buy one at the desks from somewhere such as Cross Gates or a similarly close-by station?

When the barriers are in operation at Newcastle I'll say I got on at Manors.

 

[Mojo]

Not advisable; what if they were carrying out a revenue block at that station?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

They did that at Leeds a month or so ago. Had barrier and security guard checks at Burley Park, Bramley, Cross Gates and Woodlesford. Then when everyone came up asking to buy a single from one of the above stations they were promptly put into the "Queue here for the nice Constable and man with notebook" line! TPE and Northern often joint operations along similar lines at Warrington!

 

[jon0844]

It's unlikely that any TOC operating DOO would ever get staff back on the train permanently - but has anyone ever sat down to work out the cost of staffing (perhaps 2 up for security) evening trains and at 'peak' times over the weekends? Peak being services known to have problems, or around sporting events etc.

Let's take FCC out of King's Cross as an example. How many services do they operate from, say, 2030 to the last train at around 0130 (in by 0300 at Peterborough). It's the number of overall services you need to count each way and then multiply that by 2 members of staff who act as security and revenue. Each will obviously work many services, so it may not be as many as you think overall.

Okay, so perhaps with all the stopper services you may have too many - but let's say you operated them on half of the services (but varied them from day to day). That's still a VERY high chance of being caught - and an incredibly effective deterrent against anti-social behaviour, sitting in first class etc.

Yes, there's a significant cost - but in terms of the revenue made (or protected) - and the security benefits - it MUST pay for itself EASILY. I don't know what the hourly rate is, but it must be recovered from just a few PFs or tickets at twice the standard fare.

The problem is that it would be effective and no doubt very quickly you'd see a reduction in people travelling without a ticket (or troublemakers travelling at all) but if the staff weren't making the money because the ticket machines were - some accountant would say they weren't justifying their salary and get rid of them.

Having people on the trains at night has to be even better than at the stations (if you have to choose) - which can be monitored by CCTV or have regular security patrols.

You'll probably find more people travel who would never dare set foot on a train at certain times (like after 11pm), so it has many other benefits.

Why can't a TOC see this? Surely shareholders can see that it would actually be beneficial to them too - as it would almost certainly help the TOC make more profit by reducing other costs and losses.

 

[Lampshade]

Taking Leeds as an example, I wonder how many people in the rush hour (and other times if they are lucky) don't buy a ticket at the origin station but buy one at the desks from somewhere such as Cross Gates or a similarly close-by station?

When the barriers are in operation at Newcastle I'll say I got on at Manors.

That'll only work if you do it at a time when trains actually call at Manors, a bit like arriving at Manchester Piccadilly and saying you got on at Ardwick - 'no, it's midday, you blatently didn't' would probably be the reply.

Interesting point though, I wonder how much ticket sales to Manors have increased since the barriers were installed.

 

[142094]

Not advisable; what if they were carrying out a revenue block at that station?

Don't think there has been a revenue block ever at Manors in its current state. They wouldn't be able to check, unless they went through CCTV to find me getting off a different train.

Problem with Manors is that only a few trains go there towards Central. Still could say I got on at MetroCentre instead.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That'll only work if you do it at a time when trains actually call at Manors, a bit like arriving at Manchester Piccadilly and saying you got on at Ardwick - 'no, it's midday, you blatently didn't' would probably be the reply.

Interesting point though, I wonder how much ticket sales to Manors have increased since the barriers were installed.

Fair point, but there is nothing saying I have to leave a station straight after disembarking from a train. I'll just say I was using the facilities.

The barriers are up but not working yet, but Manors will have a few more 'entries' when they do from me and anyone else who figures it out.

 

[TTI]

....last night. I left Manchester at 2107 going to Liverpool. Left Manchester full and standing to bursting point, I physically couldn't get down the train. I managed to get down after Warrington, but only managed 1 coach all the way to Liverpool due to large numbers of people without tickets and large numbers of arguments with a wide variety of people as I was actually making them pay rather than just giving them a free ride. Exactly the same on the return, especially between Manchester and Stalybridge. In the end, I took twice as much money as I would expect to take on a morning peak train, but It was hard work......

But this is what happens on the evenings. Where are Revenue Protection? At Home. Where are the barriers? Left open or at home. Where is the support from the company? Non existent. Where is the interest in actually protecting this revenue? Non Existent. Yet come Monday morning at 0700 the barriers are all out with revenue protection everywhere - ah but those juicy high value business fares are far easier to collect and protect.

Repeat this situation across the whole country then you can see the problem! It then breeds an attitude problem - people expect to get a free ride after dark or between certain stations, and then fly off the handle when they are actually asked to pay. (truncated)

Well done to you. Every Credit, kwvr45. The trouble is the railways open station policy since the 1980s has inbred this culture. When no ticket checks are carried out even from early evening, it is vicious downward circle and even "normal" people soon realise when no-one comes through that they too will not bother buying a ticket before travelling.

The problem you had on your train would be helped vastly if proper barriers were there at Lime Street.

All this ticketless travel in these numbers doesn't occur down south as there are barriers everywhere.

Also on Saturday at Manchester, I viewed a TPE service arrive from beyond Huddersfield and, by a miracle, happended to be on a platform where there was 3x G4S staff checking tickets. [Only 3x G4S staff for the whole of the main station, mind!] 40 people had no tickets (Why?) and, because G4S only had one machine, the majority soon became agitated. After 5 mins, as the passengers got more impatient, the queue was told to buy tickets "on their way into Manchester at the ticket office" by the platform staff and they all walked !

 

[royaloak]

Let's take FCC out of King's Cross as an example. How many services do they operate from, say, 2030 to the last train at around 0130 (in by 0300 at Peterborough).

That would be 31 trains.