Norwich - Cambridge - Stansted future ideas

[90sWereBetter]

Having enjoyed several incredibly busy Greater Anglia trains between Cambridge and Norwich recently, it got me thinking about the future of this service. It's always been busy and I remember it being nightmarish in the days when it was operated by 170s (even worse when 156s or 153s ended up on them!). The 755s have been brilliant in this regard, however the extension to Stansted and the huge growth around Cambridge seems to have already absorbed the extra capacity the new trains had. The opening of Cambridge South is likely to add to the pressure.

Currently the service is hourly, but I imagine it's impossible to increase the service to 2tph the entire way unless Ely North junction is ever upgraded AND the entire Stansted branch is rebuilt with a twin-track tunnel and about double the amount of platforms it currently has. I know the Ely North upgrade has been touted for a while but has anything been mooted about upgrades to the Stansted branch?

If infrastructure upgrades are out of the question, given the relative slack with Greater Anglia's 755 fleet and eventually more 745/1s moving to Norwich-London services (which I assume will eliminate the triple 755 sets), could there be any possibility of extra capacity by running pairs of 755s on Norwich-Cambridge-Stansted services?

 

[dk1]

No chance of double sets due to platform length at most stations. Also unlike older stock with grandfather rights they are not allowed to stop foul of level crossings. Also at Stansted the only way they can be fitted in is for the following 745 from London to arrive on top.

A half hourly service has been mooted between Norwich/Cambridge but all depends as you say on Ely North Jcn upgrade.

Several relief services do operate however when the GEML is blocked for engineering works. Today is an example.

 

[30907]

No chance of double sets due to platform length at most stations. Also unlike older stock with grandfather rights they are not allowed to stop foul of level crossings.

There looks to be space for modest platform extensions at those stations which get an all-day service without fouling LCs.
So: transfer all the peak stops at Spooner Row etc to EM?
Run a peak hour Thetford-Norwich to serve them?

Also at Stansted the only way they can be fitted in is for the following 745 from London to arrive on top.

More problematic. Not ideal, but could the service split at Cambridge? How much traffic is through to Stansted? Failing that, is it possible to split the trains at CBG?

 

[dk1]

There looks to be space for modest platform extensions at those stations which get an all-day service without fouling LCs.
So: transfer all the peak stops at Spooner Row etc to EM?
Run a peak hour Thetford-Norwich to serve them?

More problematic. Not ideal, but could the service split at Cambridge? How much traffic is through to Stansted? Failing that, is it possible to split the trains at CBG?

Splitting it at Cambridge would be completely against the whole point of the long awaited airport link to Norwich & was how it ran before the 755s arrived. Dividing trains would be a nightmare. Best to wait however many years before Ely gets hopefully upgraded to a double North Jcn.

If it can’t be found economic to make good platforms that are already there on many regional stations we stop at then there is no chance of building new platform extensions on this route.

4-cars is sufficient for much of the day with crowding only contained to the Cambridge-Ely section except on weekends when engineering work or football has an effect. Cross-Cambridge traffic has been very healthy and is growing as the airport goes from strength to strength. Some trains I work have been as busy departing Cambridge for Stansted as they are arriving from Norwich.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Personally I would terminate the cross country to or three car overcrowded excuse for a service at Ely or indeed elsewhere and use its path for an additional greater Anglia Stansted service instead which not only provides more capacity but can also use all those lovely wires and therefore eliminate diesel and overpriced rip off cross-country from Stansted altogether. I know that I'm going to get shouted down for this so don't expect me to reply because no one ever likes anything I say on here

 

[dk1]

Personally I would terminate the cross country to or three car overcrowded excuse for a service at Ely or indeed elsewhere and use its path for an additional greater Anglia Stansted service instead which not only provides more capacity but can also use all those lovely wires and therefore eliminate diesel and overpriced rip off cross-country from Stansted altogether. I know that I'm going to get shouted down for this so don't expect me to reply because no one ever likes anything I say on here

I will always reply and yes this would be a ludicrous idea. It’s the only direct link to Peterborough & beyond and Cambridge is the main revenue generator for this service. What path are you saving as Ely North Junction which is the problem would still have to be crossed by this train.

 

[gingerheid]

Part of the solution might instead be for Cross Country actually run their service! It's beyond pathetic that they've never returned to hourly on the route before now!

 

[dk1]

Part of the solution might instead be for Cross Country actually run their service! It's beyond pathetic that they've never returned to hourly on the route before now!

I think it’s December when a full XC service returns to Stansted but have to agree, they have really dragged this one out for some reason or another.

 

[D365]

I think it’s December when a full XC service returns to Stansted but have to agree, they have really dragged this one out for some reason or another.

Cue the inevitable “Which December?”

 

[dk1]

Cue the inevitable “Which December?”

There is that Im expecting it to slip to May 2025.

 

[swt_passenger]

There is that Im expecting it to slip to May 2025.

It’s already known it wasn’t December, May 2025 is the date the full Stansted service gets reinstated, it was in the recent XC track access application.

 

[cle]

So it doesn't sound like there is much scope for improvement here. Stansted tunnel is tapped out on tph, and the platform is too short? And Ely won't support another frequency, even if an additional Cambridge terminator.

Ipswich can't support a second tph due to tunnels/single track either - ideally this would use an eastern platform (like a p9 side, or if South had had a bay!) - so that can't really grow either. Maybe one day this will thread into EWR? But otherwise, it's stuck as is.

P'boro-Ipswich was always touted as potentially going hourly, doesn't help Cambridge as the hub, but it's something. But would it even be the best use of another Ely path. Could the Nottingham/Liverpool go across the top and skip Ely - and something else slot in? Like a second Birmingham.

 

[dk1]

Could the Nottingham/Liverpool go across the top and skip Ely - and something else slot in? Like a second Birmingham.

How would that work? It still crosses over the entire junction. The ‘West Curve’ is not over the top.

 

[William3000]

If capacity is ever an issue would it be possible to increase the 755s to 5 car by commissioning and slotting in an additional coach? I’m pretty sure all the stations on the Breckland Line are long enough (with possible exception of Spooner Row).

 

[dk1]

If capacity is ever an issue would it be possible to increase the 755s to 5 car by commissioning and slotting in an additional coach? I’m pretty sure all the stations on the Breckland Line are long enough (with possible exception of Spooner Row).

I think the 14x3 cars would be first to have coach B added to make it a standard fleet.

Stansted may then be an issue as would be unable to use platform 2 as I’m sure it’s a 4-car max platform. Not sure how it would affect permissive working as happens now with operations in 1/3.

On the Breckland Brandon would be tight but obviously ASDO could be used. Spooner Row is 1-car down & 2-cars up.

On other routes it could well become an issue especially East Suffolk. It would also stop multi use of platform 5 at Norwich and at Ipswich where sometime 3 trains share. Then there is Crown Point depot. So operationally it’s a non-starter unfortunately.

 

[90sWereBetter]

I assume the Felixstowe and Sudbury branches would have to remain with 3 cars at the absolute max.

 

[dk1]

I assume the Felixstowe and Sudbury branches would have to remain with 3 cars at the absolute max.

Felixstowe has no restriction.

 

[Halish Railway]

I would imagine that should the existing service be supplemented it would initially begin as a Norwich to Cambridge service, leaving the opportunity available to be extended to run along the EWR route.

 

[Meerkat]

Either extend the platforms or close those stations - don't let the tail wag the dog.
Are the planned Ely upgrades ambitious enough, didn't seem to add much when there seems plenty of demand for improved services.

 

[dk1]

Either extend the platforms or close those stations - don't let the tail wag the dog.
Are the planned Ely upgrades ambitious enough, didn't seem to add much when there seems plenty of demand for improved services.

Close stations?? How does that happen? Some of the plans for Ely are very ambitious and are centred around Felixstowe freight traffic with an add on benefit to passenger services.

 

[Magdalia]

at Stansted the only way they can be fitted in is for the following 745 from London to arrive on top.

Either extend the platforms or close those stations

The main platform length constraint is at Stansted Airport.

 

[dk1]

The main platform length constraint is at Stansted Airport.

Let’s hope we don’t close that station then

 

[CarrotPie]

Also unlike older stock with grandfather rights they are not allowed to stop foul of level crossings.

Why would older stock be allowed to foul LCs but newer stock wouldn't?

 

[dk1]

Why would older stock be allowed to foul LCs but newer stock wouldn't?

It was the agreement when total fleet renewal took place at GA. Lots of things are like that. Even in the early 2000s HSTs were allowed to stop at short stations whereas Voyagers were not in the West Country.

It’s just known as grandfather rights.

 

[Meerkat]

Close stations?? How does that happen? Some of the plans for Ely are very ambitious and are centred around Felixstowe freight traffic with an add on benefit to passenger services.

How many extra trains does the Ely plan allow? It really didn't seem many when I last looked - more of a catch up than an expansion.

 

[MikeWM]

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/runni...lway-in-anglia/ely-area-capacity-enhancement/

It adds 2.5 passenger paths per hour (1 Kings Lynn, 0.5 to uplift the Ipswich-Peterborough to hourly, and 1 not yet specified) and 1 freight. Agreed that this seems more catch-up than future-proofing.

At the least I'd have hoped that both Cambridge-Peterborough and beyond, and Cambridge-Norwich, could go twice-hourly. We could really do with this now, never mind in the far distant future, but that's already beyond what these plans allow. (Though I do wonder if one of those could be done in place of the proposed half-hourly service to Kings Lynn, which I don't think is necessary off-peak).

 

[ScotGG]

Does King's Lynn have much new housing planed? The Cambridge to Norwich line does at many stations. I think Attleborough, for example, has about 5-10k homes beside the station heading south doesn't it?

 

[47421]

Lots of disruption on west anglia today, 1K81 1427 Norwich Stansted Airport according to RTT is 755407 and has just arrived in platform 2 (the bay) at Stansted Airport.

Didnt realise you could squeeze a 4 car 755 in there?

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

Platform 2 at Stansted is 97m long (https://www.railwaydata.co.uk/stations/overview/?TLC=SSD) and 4 car 755s are 80.7m long (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_755)

Also aren't all the platforms bays

 

[TheBigD]

Lots of disruption on west anglia today, 1K81 1427 Norwich Stansted Airport according to RTT is 755407 and has just arrived in platform 2 (the bay) at Stansted Airport.

Didnt realise you could squeeze a 4 car 755 in there?

The first Great Anglia arrival from Cambridge on both Saturdays and Sundays are booked to use platform 2.

With the current XC service now generally down to just 2 hourly, it's not uncommon to for Greater Anglia's Norwich service to use platform 2 when there's disruption.