Not allowed to board Lumo service because of oversized backpack

[yorkie]

Lumo are clearly in the wrong here and must reimburse the customer.

Does this mean they should restrict ticket sales to there App, or do other retailers have to ask if you've check with Lumo's additional conditions for travel?

Lumo is an abomination. If they can't meet the standard conditions of carriage elsewhere on the railway, then IMHO their services should be excluded from general tickets sales. Lumo tickets should be limited solely to the Lumo app to prevent people falling victim to their service. To the OP I would recommend formally complaining to Trainline.

If Lumo are not prepared to adhere to the minimum standards stipulated in the National Rail Conditions of Travel then yes, their services should be withdrawn from industry systems, and they should not recieve any revenue sharing through ORCATS/Lennon.

 

[BRX]

I just checked what happens on the trainline website, if you do a journey planner search, choose a Lumo ticket, and click on any link that has anything about restrictions or ticket conditions. Here is what you get in each of the two relevant links:



Again, nothing about special luggage restrictions.

No way is it reasonable to assume a passenger should dig through all info on the Trainline or any other website to discover Lumo's luggage policy. It's not a normal part of booking a UK rail ticket, and the OP was not carrying unusual luggage.

 

[185]

Unbelievable. 65L isn't even a massive size and probably by volume is smaller than the one on their silly suitcase diagram. Hope someone takes FirstGroup to court as the luggage conditions aren't specified at point of sale via their authorised RDG approved agents.

I can only assume Leno don't want big luggage due to the tilting 45° trains they occasionally run.

 

[BRX]

As I could not travel I wasted my £123 return fare. I could not afford to buy another ticket with LNER. As Trainline didn't specify the luggage limit, do I have any hope for a refund from them?

Depending on how much hassle you want to go through and how much fuss you have the energy to make, I think a refund is the absolute minimum you should get, and you should be asking for some kind of compensation for your cancelled trip. And certainly an apology.

I actually have travelled on a couple of Lumo services recently. Happened to know about the luggage policy because I'd read about it on their own website at some point (even though I hadn't bought my tickets there). I did wonder how they could ever enforce it when people had bought the ticket from a third party. One service was very busy, and I noticed big bags everywhere and came to the conclusion, maybe they simply don't enforce it and have it on their website only as a kind of deterrent (or an attempt to get extra cash out of customers via surcharges). Clearly I was wrong.

 

[Adam Williams]

Might help prevent someone else getting caught out by this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The restrictions apply to all services.

No, they don't. Lumo's restriction is considerably tighter than the national ones.

Unbelievable. 65L isn't even a massive size and probably by volume is smaller than the one on their silly suitcase diagram. Hope someone takes FirstGroup to court as the luggage conditions aren't specified at point of sale via their authorised RDG approved agents.

I can only assume Leno don't want big luggage due to the tilting 45° trains they occasionally run.

And unlike the pictured suitcase will fit the overheads. I have had a 120l rucksack in 80x overheads. Rucksacks fit better as they're narrower and soft.

 

[Watershed]

View attachment 130563

Might help prevent someone else getting caught out by this.

Arguably it might even justify highlighting, or a red warning triangle, in order to comply with the "red hand rule". Then again, I think a lot would hinge on whether this restriction were deemed sufficiently onerous that the aforesaid rule even comes into play.

Though clearly this policy is very harsh, I think it is borderline as to whether it is actually enforceable. @tspaul26 may wish to opine...

 

[Fleetmaster]

As far as I knew anything heavy is no longer permitted in overhead racks, and since Lumo are aiming for a high standard of service but also maximum occupancy, they probably have both a commercial and safety imperative to avoid situations where the end of carriage storage is insufficient. And given their climate pledge too, that might explain why they might reject small but overweight luggage.

It's a sad day though when you realise you can't just rock up to a train with a backpack. Makes cheating on your D of E much harder.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Not the only operator with a non-standard rule for certain hand luggage, of course:

Folding cycles should be transported in a protective carrying case.

Bicycles on the c2c route - Find out more information here

Find out more information about what times bicycles are allowed onboard c2c trains, what types are allowed and our policies for having bikes on our services.

www.c2c-online.co.uk

 

[VC00]

Unbelievable. 65L isn't even a massive size and probably by volume is smaller than the one on their silly suitcase diagram. Hope someone takes FirstGroup to court as the luggage conditions aren't specified at point of sale via their authorised RDG approved agents.

I can only assume Leno don't want big luggage due to the tilting 45° trains they occasionally run.

Certainly interesting - I've been in a group with many large backpacks (80-100L) without an issue. What service was OP using?

 

[Efini92]

As far as I knew anything heavy is no longer permitted in overhead racks, and since Lumo are aiming for a high standard of service but also maximum occupancy, they probably have both a commercial and safety imperative to avoid situations where the end of carriage storage is insufficient. And given their climate pledge too, that might explain why they might reject small but overweight luggage.

It's a sad day though when you realise you can't just rock up to a train with a backpack. Makes cheating on your D of E much harder.

Or because they don’t want heavy items flying out of the overhead racks when they test the limits of point work.

 

[Adam Williams]

Or because they don’t want heavy items flying out of the overhead racks when they test the limits of point work.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As far as I knew anything heavy is no longer permitted in overhead racks, and since Lumo are aiming for a high standard of service but also maximum occupancy

High standard of service? <smirk>

It's Ryanair on rails. Setting a luggage policy that will catch people out so you can turn them away without refund (a 65l rucksack is small, my daysac is 50l) is just one of that airline's dirty practices.

 

[GodAtum]

Unfortunately my backpack is in 88 x 39 x 36cm. Their luggage policy is 63 x 41 x 27cm. I'd be happy if Trainline had made it clearer during the booking process and not having to reply on the customer to dig through T&Cs.

 

[185]

I have asked the ASA to look at the way Lumo tickets are retailed on the variety of online agents. Can't always blame Trainline et al when the operator is equally useless - the operator has some responsibility of how it's tickets are sold, even through it's accredited / designated agents.

 

[185143]

Not the only operator with a non-standard rule for certain hand luggage, of course:

Bicycles on the c2c route - Find out more information here

Find out more information about what times bicycles are allowed onboard c2c trains, what types are allowed and our policies for having bikes on our services.

www.c2c-online.co.uk

"Should be"
And
"We will refuse carriage of..."
Are very different things!

As an aside, I'm assuming Lumo's luggage rules are more restrictive than NRCoT? If so, are they exempt from that being an OAO?

 

[Alex365Dash]

As an aside, I'm assuming Lumo's luggage rules are more restrictive than NRCoT? If so, are they exempt from that being an OAO?

If luggage restrictions are sufficiently published on the Train Company’s website and at the time of purchase, the NRCoT allows individual Train Companies to have more restrictive luggage restrictions than the default.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just got a tape measure out:

(for comparison: IATA hand luggage is 56 x 45 x 25, Lumo main bag is 63 x 41 x 27)

50l daysac: 63 x 35 x 22 - only just too big for IATA hand luggage, would probably get away with it if squashed down in the sizer - I do have a slightly smaller one I use for airline hand luggage but not to hand
65+10l rucksack: 68 x 45 x about 30 (measured empty so approximate)
Medium trolley case: 64 x 43 x 22 (I'd consider this a very average piece of luggage of the kind most people check in on a plane)
Large trolley case: 73 x 48 x 27 (this is quite big, of the kind cruise passengers tend to take)

All but the last one of these comfortably fit 80x overheads. My 120l rucksack I didn't measure as it won't take shape without being packed full, but it's in a similar league to the large trolley case but a bit deeper and narrower so it does fit 80x, Desiro and Civity overheads and can be squashed in on a Pendolino if not full.

Even my daysac could be, if packed full, too large in one dimension for what Lumo specify as a large bag. Even an IATA piece of hand luggage is 4cm too thick.

What utter, utter cowboys - this absolutely stinks of fish. It is arguably misleading to even describe a piece of IATA hand luggage as a "suitcase" - most people wouldn't use that term for a small trolley bag of that kind, the term "suitcase" conjures up a larger piece.

I could completely understand the medium trolley case above being the maximum (which realistically means the 65l rucksack would also be squashable into whatever sizer is used). But the allowed size is absolutely tiny and will be unsuitable for pretty much any business traveller going for more than a couple of days or backpacker going for any length of time - both of which are the core market. And it's not just about them charging extra, which in their business model might be reasonable - it's about refusing travel and knackering peoples' plans while keeping their money.

I never really liked Lumo, but in my view this is almost tantamount to a scam. They could use IATA dimensions and make it clearer e.g. "airline hand luggage size" as a note, but they've chosen not to.

 

[Trainbike46]

As far as I knew anything heavy is no longer permitted in overhead racks, and since Lumo are aiming for a high standard of service but also maximum occupancy, they probably have both a commercial and safety imperative to avoid situations where the end of carriage storage is insufficient. And given their climate pledge too, that might explain why they might reject small but overweight luggage.

This is actually nonsense. The energy impact of the extra weight of a backpack on a train is zero.

About heavy things in overheads, this is the first I've heard of it, and I do regularly put heavy backpacks in overheads

It's a sad day though when you realise you can't just rock up to a train with a backpack. Makes cheating on your D of E much harder.

OP definitely needs to request a refund, I hope they get one with minimal (further) fuss

 

[Meerkat]

any business traveller going for more than a couple of days or backpacker going for any length of time - both of which are the core market.

Are those the Lumo target market?
I would be surprised if they turned away your medium trolley case as two ways are marginally too big and the other one is less.
Anyone got a list of airline cabin baggage sizes to work out where they got their choice from? From what you say it is unlikely to be based on the overheads (though once you did do that H&S would probably insist on being overly safe) and I would be surprised if they have done some mad calculation of the best use of the stacks divided by an average number of users.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are those the Lumo target market?

The young are the target market, certainly. The early northbound is probably business-targetted. So I'd say so yes. I doubt you'd fill the whole service with hotel-staying weekend trippers, at least not midweek!

I would be surprised if they turned away your medium trolley case as two ways are marginally too big and the other one is less.

The 65+10 rucksack is only marginally over too. The OP speaks of a plain 65, not a 65+10, which thus was probably only over in one dimension. So I'd not bet on that...

Plus if the "small item" is a size-unspecified holdall, a rucksack is just as squishy. My holdall I haven't measured but I think would be over in two dimensions, and it's not huge. Typically if going for a short hotel stay I carry that and the daysac, which I wouldn't be confident on them not refusing even if it technically fits the description between them (just).

Anyone got a list of airline cabin baggage sizes to work out where they got their choice from? From what you say it is unlikely to be based on the overheads (though once you did do that H&S would probably insist on being overly safe) and I would be surprised if they have done some mad calculation of the best use of the stacks divided by an average number of users.

I suspect they did actually measure the luggage stacks for the trolley bags, which has given rise to that odd number because it's a round number of stacked bags.

But the airline ones if I recall are IATA size for easyJet (56x45x25) and 55x40x20 for Ryanair, the difference being because Airbus aircraft have bigger overhead bins than Boeings. Both also have a smaller underseat version but that's not what's under discussion.

But overall my point stands - they should be clearly describing this service as "hand luggage only" because the permitted size is only marginally bigger than IATA hand luggage and is actually smaller in one dimension. The term "suitcase" is grossly misleading.

 

[skyhigh]

I have asked the ASA to look at the way Lumo tickets are retailed on the variety of online agents. Can't always blame Trainline et al when the operator is equally useless - the operator has some responsibility of how it's tickets are sold, even through it's accredited / designated agents.

While I agree that it needs someone to look at it, I'm not sure the ASA are the right people? Unless Lumo are somehow falsely advertising that you can take large baggage?

 

[Bletchleyite]

While I agree that it needs someone to look at it, I'm not sure the ASA are the right people? Unless Lumo are somehow falsely advertising that you can take large baggage?

I think the term "suitcase" could be considered borderline false advertising. People don't generally describe small IATA trolley bags as "suitcases". They're trolley bags, hand luggage, rollaboards*, whatever. "Suitcases" are bigger.

A correct description of Lumo's luggage policy would be "we allow two pieces of hand luggage only, one smaller and one larger. Check carefully that your luggage fits; most checked luggage that would be allowed on an aircraft is too large for our services".

* Some Flyertalk people (I don't post there now) used to use the slightly odd "rollerboard" malapropism for some reason.

 

[Meerkat]

The young are the target market, certainly. The early northbound is probably business-targetted. So I'd say so yes.

Haven't both these markets adapted to travelling light to travel cheap and get through airports quickly?

I think the term "suitcase" could be considered borderline false advertising.

Bizarrely they have a picture of a small suitcase below the heading "Holdall"
And surprised they haven't got 'handbag/rucksack/laptop' case for the under seat/lap category to avoid arguments whether handbags and laptop cases are counted or not.

As 'holdall' isn't defined by size and the picture is not a holdall the would struggle a bit if you slung your big rucksack up on the overhead and said "Its a holdall"

 

[Bletchleyite]

Haven't both these markets adapted to travelling light to travel cheap and get through airports quickly?

Quite a few will have IATA carryons, yes. Oops, they're too big for Lumo! Some might have Ryanair sized ones which do fit though.

But aping SleasyJet and Eireflop is hardly an accolade.

 

[Meerkat]

Quite a few will have IATA carryons, yes. Oops, they're too big for Lumo! Some might have Ryanair sized ones which do fit though.

But aping SleasyJet and Eireflop is hardly an accolade.

Would they even bother measuring an IATA 56x45x25, as its pretty similar to 63x41x27 and actually smaller volume?

PS all we know about the OP's luggage was that it was a 65l rucksack. We don't know what size it is nor whether it had other stuff hanging off it (mine certainly used to if I was camping). It seems a bit odd for them to just ban it, rather than a warning or excess charge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would they even bother measuring an IATA 56x45x25, as its pretty similar to 63x41x27 and actually smaller volume?

They may well not do, just as I find sleasyJet never bother putting small rucksacks or holdalls in the sizer (though I don't think I've ever used one that wouldn't have fitted if they had done, I don't use the daybag noted above for flights, I mostly check in a bag as I don't like travelling light, not made easier by XXL clothing and size 14 shoes taking up a lot more room than size S and a more normal shoe size). But I don't think people can make long distance travel decisions based on "it might be OK", because the impact of refusal is just that - total refusal. With the airlines you can still travel, it'll just cost you about 50 quid to put it in the hold, annoying but not holiday-destroying.

 

[Krokodil]

As Trainline didn't specify the luggage limit, do I have any hope for a refund from them?

Good luck, you may as well be trying to get blood out of a stone

Is AAA Accompanied Animals and Articles? I didn't know these were still available. I thought they died out with Bristish Rail!

They are no longer available.

The function came off our machines in late 2018 as I recall, on the basis that no one ever used it.

 

[Haywain]

The function came off our machines in late 2018 as I recall, on the basis that no one ever used it.

It wasn't on our new TIS which we got in 2019. It took about 12 months before anyone noticed!

 

[Feuillesmortes]

It's Ryanair on rails. Setting a luggage policy that will catch people out so you can turn them away without refund (a 65l rucksack is small, my daysac is 50l) is just one of that airline's dirty practices.

They unbundled luggage so that they can have low headline prices and charge extra for luggage, but they are very clear on the extra cost when booking - that doesn't seem to me to be a dirty practice