Not buying full train tickets

[Lt10]

I’ve made a massive mistake and have been avoiding fares for years and I mean years. For example I buy a ticket from Bracknell to Martin herons and then one from Vauxhall to Waterloo pretty much daily.

I also have sometimes used 16-17 Railcard instead of 16-25 Railcard and I’ve now been caught.

I know I will definitely have to pay a penalty but because I’ve been doing it for so many years will this be a criminal record? Also the problem is I share this account with my younger brother who started using it from 15 should I even bother saying that some tickets are genuinely for my younger brother (though I can’t even remember which ones).

If anyone could tell me what will happen and how much trouble I’m in I would greatly appreciate it!

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

From what you've said you've been evading your fares on an industrial scale for many years. This is a criminal offence and many peoiple would argue this is exactly the sort of case that should end up in court. If it doesn't then you have to wonder just how serious the level of offending needs to be to end up in court.

Ordinarily, SWR are one of the more pragmatic train companies to deal with and will normally offer an out of court settlement to people who co-operate with them and who haven't come to their attention before. The aggravating factor here is the sustained period of time this has been going on for. If SWR do offer an out of court settlement it is likely to be very large - I'd say well into five figures if you've bee doing this for years.

On balance, given the level of offending and the sustained period of time it's been going on, I think you should consult a solicitor.

 

[Lt10]

Welcome to the forum!

From what you've said you've been evading your fares on an industrial scale for many years. This is a criminal offence and many peoiple would argue this is exactly the sort of case that should end up in court. If it doesn't then you have to wonder just how serious the level of offending needs to be to end up in court.

Ordinarily, SWR are one of the more pragmatic train companies to deal with and will normally offer an out of court settlement to people who co-operate with them and who haven't come to their attention before. The aggravating factor here is the sustained period of time this has been going on for. If SWR do offer an out of court settlement it is likely to be very large - I'd say well into five figures if you've bee doing this for years.

On balance, given the level of offending and the sustained period of time it's been going on, I think you should consult a solicitor.

Hi thank you for your response. I have a 16-25 Railcard so will they charge me for the 16-25 prices or full adult prices? I also got caught at st pancreas not by swr

 

[transportphoto]

It’ll be the full adult rate.

What was the journey being undertaken when you were caught, what tickets did you hold at the time (if any), and which company stopped you? What was said during that interaction?

 

[Lt10]

It’ll be the full adult rate.

What was the journey being undertaken when you were caught, what tickets did you hold at the time (if any), and which company stopped you? What was said during that interaction?

It was Thames link and they said they would check my whole history on Trainline so I panicked and told them yes I’ve skipped from my home station too. But the 16-17 Railcard was genuinely a mistake though.

 

[WesternLancer]

I’ve made a massive mistake and have been avoiding fares for years and I mean years. For example I buy a ticket from Bracknell to Martin herons and then one from Vauxhall to Waterloo pretty much daily.

I also have sometimes used 16-17 Railcard instead of 16-25 Railcard and I’ve now been caught.

I know I will definitely have to pay a penalty but because I’ve been doing it for so many years will this be a criminal record? Also the problem is I share this account with my younger brother who started using it from 15 should I even bother saying that some tickets are genuinely for my younger brother (though I can’t even remember which ones).

If anyone could tell me what will happen and how much trouble I’m in I would greatly appreciate it!

Your approach here should be to seek to co-operate with the railway company in the hope you can obtain an out of court settlement with them (or if you went down he solicitor route, for your solicitor to try to achieve this for you). You can see from looking at other threads how such settlements are typically calculated if they are prepared to offer one, and thus what is at stake financially.

They are likely to seek payment for tickets at the full Anytime Fare rate for each journey of they were to settle out of court (plus an Admin charge for investigating all this).

A Bracknell to Waterloo Anytime Single is £34 (return journey being 2 x £34) so you can get an idea of how much this totals up to over the period you have been evading. The Marlins Heron to Vauxhall Fare is the same so even if they were generous enough to consider doing so, they won't take into account the 'short fare' tickets you did purchase I would think.

If you want to get solicitors help there are a small number of firms mentioned regularly on this forum who specialise in rail fare matters, and people report they have been helpful when used. You could get quotes from them for assistance to get an idea what their fees might be (IIRC a recent one mentioned c£500).

If you want to try and progress it without a solicitor I am sure people here will help give you advice.

 

[Hadders]

Hi thank you for your response. I have a 16-25 Railcard so will they charge me for the 16-25 prices or full adult prices? I also got caught at st pancreas not by swr

Hang on!

What journey were you making when you were caught at St Pancras? This doesn't change the advice I initially gave but it seems you're dealing with Govia Thameslink Railway over this rather than SWR.

 

[Lt10]

Hang on!

What journey were you making when you were caught at St Pancras? This doesn't change the advice I initially gave but it seems you're dealing with Govia Thameslink Railway over this rather than SWR.

Yes but they sought of bullied me into taking a photo of my previous journeys and saw my SWR ones. It was leagues to st pancreas and I only bought to Lutron but this is the first time I have ever made the journey.

 

[transportphoto]

It was leagues to st pancreas and I only bought to Lutron but this is the first time I have ever made the journey.

From where to St Pancras?

 

[Lt10]

From where to St Pancras?

Leagraves to st pancreas but I only bought a leagraves to Lutron ticket

 

[John R]

The other thing you need to consider is that if you are lucky enough to be offered a settlement, then, on the assumption that it covers all your commuting from Bracknell too, it is going to be very large, as others have said, maybe even five figures.

So, you need to have a think about how you would pay that settlement amount in very short order, say 14 or 21 days. If you don't, you'll be prosecuted, so the time to start thinking about where you get the money from is now, not when you get contacted, given the amount.

 

[Lt10]

Leagraves to st pancreas but I only bought a leagraves to Lutron ticket

Luton sorry! Also really appreciating all these responses thank you so much!

The other thing you need to consider is that if you are lucky enough to be offered a settlement, then, on the assumption that it covers all your commuting from Bracknell too, it is going to be very large, as others have said, maybe even five figures.

So, you need to have a think about how you would pay that settlement amount in very short order, say 14 or 21 days. If you don't, you'll be prosecuted, so the time to start thinking about where you get the money from is now, not when you get contacted, given the amount.

Do they allow installments or no?

 

[Gloster]

All cases will be dealt with by the company that stopped you: they will act for all the other operators that you travelled with or bought from. If they offer you an out of court settlement it will be based on the total of the Anytime Single fares for each and every journey that you made, irrespective of the operator; a Return journey will be calculated as two Single fares. No allowance is made for any railcards or what you did pay. They then add their costs, which start at around £150. You would be expected to pay the whole sum in a matter of days from the offer being made.

 

[John R]

Luton sorry! Also really appreciating all these responses thank you so much!


Do they allow installments or no?

In exceptional circumstances they do, but it will be limited by having the full amount paid before the deadline for them to prosecute (6 months from when you were caught). And I don't think you should rely on them agreeing to it.

 

[signed]

Do they allow installments or no?

Very unlikely, but the only ones we see are at maximum in 2 payments

 

[Gloster]

Luton sorry! Also really appreciating all these responses thank you so much!


Do they allow installments or no?

Very, very rarely and even then only over a very short period. You can ask, but ‘It’s a lot of money’ is unlikley to be seen as a good reason for offering a plan.

 

[WesternLancer]

Do they allow installments or no?

No they don't typically allow installments on the basis that they have a time limit in which to bring a prosecution from the point they commence the prosecution process. If they allowed instalments then that would potentially prevent them prosecuting after the time limit has elapsed, and thus their ability to obtain the money from you is significantly reduced (ie if you defaulted on the instalments and they could no longer prosecute). You can see the logic from their point of view.

Alternatively it can be possible to pay court fines by installments, but a court fine comes after a prosecution, a guilty verdict and comes with a criminal record. Mots people want to avoid that because of the wider consequences of having a criminal record.

 

[Lt10]

No they don't typically allow installments on the basis that they have a time limit in which to bring a prosecution from the point they commence the prosecution process. If they allowed instalments then that would potentially prevent them prosecuting after the time limit has elapsed, and thus their ability to obtain the money from you is significantly reduced (ie if you defaulted on the instalments).

Alternatively it can be possible to pay court fines by installments, but a court fine comes after a prosecution, a guilty verdict and comes with a criminal record. Mots people want to avoid that because of the wider consequences of having a criminal record.

So will they definitely take my claims to swr as well?

 

[WesternLancer]

So will they definitely take my claims to swr as well?

You would have to wait for them to write to you and see what they say - but one would expect them to do this if they detect the level of fare evasion you are telling us you have been up to. Why would they not do so after all.

 

[Lt10]

You would have to wait for them to write to you and see what they say - but one would expect them to do this if they detect the level of fare evasion you are telling us you have been up to. Why would they not do so after all.

Yes thank you for your responses I really appreciate it

You would have to wait for them to write to you and see what they say - but one would expect them to do this if they detect the level of fare evasion you are telling us you have been up to. Why would they not do so after all.

How long will it take for the letter to arrive?

 

[Hadders]

Yes but they sought of bullied me into taking a photo of my previous journeys and saw my SWR ones. It was leagues to st pancreas and I only bought to Lutron but this is the first time I have ever made the journey.

I assume you mean Leagrave?

GTR will definitely contact you about the Leagrave to St Pancras journey. The next bit depends on how 'switched on' the person at GTR who deals with your case is.

If they reaslise that your Bracknell to Martins Heron and Vauxhall to Waterloo tickets are doughnutting (which they should) they will pass this over to their fraud team to deal with. They will write to you and ask you to contact them to discuss the case. Normally this results in a settlement offer but to be fair this case alludes to evasion on an industrial scale

It is possible that GTR will only look at the Leagrave to St Pancras journey and deal with that case only. This is unlikely but if this happens there is always the risk that they could contact you about your journeys on SWR at a later date.

It is also possible that they will speak to their counterparts at SWR. Normally train compaany that 'catches' the person deals with the case but as far as I know this is where there are staff from two companies at the same station - eg at London Bridge staff from both GTR and Southeastern are often present and they'll normally deal with each others cases. This case is a little different because SWR is and GTR don't work together at St Pancras - there's no need for them to do so.

 

[WesternLancer]

Leagraves to st pancreas but I only bought a leagraves to Lutron ticket

So you travelled from Leagrave to London St Pancras, but only bought a ticket from Leagrave to Luton?

As a matter of interest how did you expect to get through the barrier at St Pancras when you exited the Thameslink platforms at St Pancras to leave the station. Or did you have another short ticket from somewhere else that ended at St Pancras (like your Vauxhall to Waterloo tickets for example)?

 

[Lt10]

So you travelled from Leagrave to London St Pancras, but only bought a ticket from Leagrave to Luton?

As a matter of interest how did you expect to get through the barrier at St Pancras when you exited the Thameslink platforms at St Pancras to leave the station. Or did you have another short ticket from somewhere else that ended at St Pancras (like your Vauxhall to Waterloo tickets for example)?

Yes I did. I know I’m really stupid for this but I’m a student who’s really broke and have had to give all my money to my family. I used to live in London and we moved out but all my friends are still in London so I would travel often but because my parents had no money I tried my best to give them everything I had and hence save money on tickets.

 

[WesternLancer]

How long will it take for the letter to arrive?

Depends on how busy they are probably and how much time they look into your other evasion that was discovered when they stopped you before they write. Might be a few weeks, might be longer (month or more) - they will not want to miss the 6 month deadline I mentioned above. I assume you gave an accurate name and address? It is absolutely vital you respond and engage with / reply what they send you or they will just automatically escalate it to prosecution.

You could use the time now to:
- save up or arrange to access the sort of funds they might ask you to pay if you can persuade them to you an out of court settlement
- get quotes form solicitors about helping you if you opt to use a solicitor
- alternatively if you are a student see if your student union has an in house advice service that can help you or any agreement with an advice service or local solicitor firm that offers students help at a reduced charge

This is a firm that often gets mentioned, including with Thameslink (I have no connection nor have ever used them)

Fare Evasion Solicitors | Kent & London | Manak Solicitors

Manak Solicitors: Skilled legal defence for fare evasion cases. Rely on our experienced team to protect your rights, challenge penalties, and guide you through the process.

manaksolicitors.co.uk

 

[Lt10]

Depends on how busy they are probably how much time they look into your other evasion that was discovered when they stopped you before they write. Might be a few weeks, might be longer (month or more) - they will not want to miss the 6 month deadline I mentioned above.

You could use the time now to:
- save up or arrange to access the sort of funds they might ask you to pay if you can persuade them to you an out of court settlement
- get quotes form solicitors about helping you if you opt to use a solicitor

This is a firm that often gets mentioned, including with Thameslink (I have no connection nor have ever used them)

Manak Lawyers | Orpington | Sevenoaks | Gravesend | Bromley | Biggin Hill

Manak Solicitors: Your trusted legal experts for Family Law, Immigration, Conveyancing, Wills & Probate, and Employment Law. Experience professional, bespoke services.

manaksolicitors.co.uk

Yes I’ve contacted them already! Thank you.

 

[John R]

Given you said this:-

Yes but they sought of bullied me into taking a photo of my previous journeys and saw my SWR ones.

and this:-

It was Thames link and they said they would check my whole history on Trainline so I panicked and told them yes I’ve skipped from my home station too

I would think it's highly unlikely that they will limit their investigation to the instance when you caught.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@Lt10. It's by no means guaranteed, but a decent firm of solicitors may just be able to negotiate the offset of what you've already paid/underpaid in fares, against what'll now be due. Sounds, however, like you'll still be due to stump up a sizeable amount in back fares + admin fees.