(not) My Suggestion for a service from Nottingham to Glasgow via the S&C

[lejog]

I have never understood Nottingham to Glasgow.

However, what might be useful is West Yorkshire to Glasgow via Settle and Carstairs, because West Yorkshire doesn't have particularly useful links to Glasgow and Western Scotland at present - the fastest way is on XC direct via Edinburgh. There would be scope to improve that if you could make best use of the speed between Carlisle and Glasgow and also increase the speed between Leeds and Carlisle. The latter however would be very expensive. The former is a good idea but how much room is there left on this line? Certainly a 75mph DMU would not do the job. You might even need EPS 125 to path it properly. This would also achieve the ambition for faster services to Leeds and Carlisle for Settle and Appleby, but would not be possible without the order of new stock.

Is it a priority? West Yorkshire to Glasgow? Not really...
Will it cost a lot of money? New stock and line speed improvements to the S&C? Yes
Is it worth it in the long term? Possibly

For the record tbtc, I often mention that journeys Nottingham (and Derby) to Manchester (and of course Manchester Airport) are too slow and need some work - I would absolutely prioritise this.

Someone in Northern (or possibly VTWC) seems to have been quite cute since Northern introduced advance tickets on the Settle-Carlisle route. Leeds-Glasgow tickets via this route now show up on NRE usually as the cheapest option with fares from £18.50, which I've booked a week or so in advance when the XC fares seem to be £40-£80.

The journey times of the 4 morning departures (8.30 to 1pm) are 4hr 12min compared with around 4hrs for the direct train, so again are competitive.

Given that the chance of line speed improvements on the S&C is zero, the only advantage of faster rolling stock would be savings on the 12min connection time at Carlisle.

As for sending sending a through train to Glasgow on the scenic route would only see a rush for the doors at Carlisle.

 

[tbtc]

Haha this has turned into exactly what the OP hates...

I think that tbc may have just inadvertently created the Nottingham to Glasgow 'master thread'...

I'd be happy if I did - maybe we could work out the ongoing fascination of this random pair of cities (via a scenic but relatively empty part of the country), or at least contain it to one thread

For the record tbtc, I often mention that journeys Nottingham (and Derby) to Manchester (and of course Manchester Airport) are too slow and need some work - I would absolutely prioritise this.

That ought to be a priority - I think that if Nottingham were seen to be notionally in "the north" then it would be seen as a bigger priority by those in power - whilst people are good at focussing on improving services in regions, they seem to have a blind spot for services which go from one region into another.

The (Norwich) Nottingham - Manchester (Liverpool) service really ought to run via the chord at Dore, knocking maybe fifteen minutes off the journey (compared to reversing at Sheffield). Plenty of other services could be extended to maintain the same Sheffield to Nottingham/ Manchester links (e.g a Leeds - Barnsley - Sheffield service could run through to Manchester - giving Barnsley a direct Manchester service plus the minor bonus of giving Wakefield a direct service that would be a lot slower than changing at Leeds/ Huddersfield).

After the opening of HS2 Phase 2, which should have a dramatic impact on the travellers between Birmingham and North East England

I think that the Birmingham to Leeds/ Newcastle service will be transformed with HS2 - it'll take Birmingham - Leeds down from a journey of two hours (today, XC) to just one hour.

I know the focus on HS2 is all about London, but services going north out of Curzon Street could be a big winner too.

I don't see the attraction of running via the S&C where, after Leeds, the only prominent centre of population you encounter is Carlisle

Agreed.

I think they should merge Nottingham-Leeds and Leeds-Carlisle into a through service creating more through journey opportunities using the same resources.

The reason they don't is that you have to cross all of Leeds station throat for this to work. Given this is the reason they're spending hundreds of millions of pounds on the Ordsall Chord in Manchester (stopping trains crossing the whole of Piccadilly station throat), I'd suggest it's not a great idea.

Yup.

I'm not even certain that the new Arriva Nottingham - Leeds - Bradford Interchange service is going to be a great idea, given how busy Leeds is, and that won't have to cross the entire throat. Running from the Wakefield lines to the Shipley lines is going to mess everything up.

In regards to the suggestion of Glasgow - Nottingham direct services via Appleby being reinstated, don't forget that the Midland Railway built the S & C as a mainline route for Intercity services so as to connect the East Midlands and the West Riding of Yorkshire with Scotland

What a line was built for and what role is has in the twenty first century are very different things though.

Today, the S&C is a slow route that sees a Sprinter every couple of hours from Leeds to Carlisle - the past doesn't matter.

If you think about it, there is no harm in suggesting that some services are put back as how they were before, which are perceived to be useful. Using that logic, remember that the BBC brought back Doctor Who, Cadbury's brought back Wispa bars, and Sheffield, Manchester, Nottingham, and Croydon have brought back trams.

No harm in suggesting things, as long as you can back them up.

Plenty of things have been brought back and flopped though.

Which will all get backfilled by Intermodal, the expectation of Class 4 growth is large on the WCML.

Didn't realise the Intermodal market would grow enough to cancel it out - interesting

South Hampshire ("Portsthampton")

Whilst South Hampshire is a large conurbation, the enthusiast focus on Cross Country services to the south coast is always to Brighton, rather than Portsmouth.

Yes, you can change at Eastleigh/ Basingstoke etc onto XC today, but Portsmouth seems to be forgotten about (maybe because part of the appeal of XC to Brighton is running via unusual chords bypassing central London?).

If an East Midlands to Glasgow service is being proposed then how about starting it at Corby? Corby has a large Scottish population and because of this National Express run a daily Corby to Glasgow coach service. The coach takes 10 hours 40 minutes - surely a train via the S&C line could beat that?

Growing up in Scotland in the '80s, Corby was always talked of as a "little Scotland", where the Daily Record sold more copies per head of population than it did in Glasgow, one of the few places south of the border that sold Irn-Bru (before every supermarket carried it like nowadays).

Was it ever like that, and is there still much Scottish influence nowadays?

(you've reminded me that I don't think I've ever seen Corby to Nottingham suggested on here!)

This suggestion is spotter wibble coupled with nostalgia for an old service some may have memories of with an added bit of crayonistaism chucked in and a desire by spotters to link every city in the UK to every other city in the UK regardless of whether, or not, there is any demand for such a service.

You have a way with words

 

[lejog]

I think they should merge Nottingham-Leeds and Leeds-Carlisle into a through service creating more through journey opportunities using the same resources.

As glbotu said, if the Leeds-Nottingham service used the current route this would cut across the whole throat at Leeds, having spent millions to remove such movements at Piccadilly. Leeds is apparently already full to capacity, needing a turn round point to the east to cater for the 4 extra trains from the west due in the next Northern franchise.

Yes the new Northern Connect route via Westgate would cause less of a problem, but still greater than the chosen solution of sending the train back out via Holbeck Junction to Bradford Interchange. And at the risk of sounding parochial, the whole point of the public money being invested in railways in the North is to stimulate the area's economy by improving connections between the area's large towns and cities. Not to provide a direct link between an East Midlands city and Scotland at the expense of improving services to one of the north's cities.

 

[DarloRich]

You have a way with words

Cheers!

As an irregular user of the S&C ( next trip 31/12) for trips between (Glasgow) Carlisle & Leeds i am all for better services on this route, however I would suggest that at either end people want to change to a faster, better service than a Northern 158 EVEN if it does come with a fantastic trolley!

 

[ashworth]

I can just about remember travelling on the Nottingham to Glagow trains via the S&C and also remember even more the last few years of the through service when it ran via Manchester Victoria. It was always slow and did not use the most up to date carriages, but it was a reasonably realiable through service which provided a comfortable, relatively relaxed journey with good scenery to view.

In the years immediately following its withdrawal, the people who did travel the whole distance from Nottingham to Glasgow, then got quite a raw deal and many turned to coach travel instead. Doing the journey via the ECML usually meant changing at least 3 times because very few Scotland trains stopped at Grantham. When the Nottingham to Crewe service was cut back to Derby the journey via the WCML was also not very attractive with poor connections both at Derby and Crewe. Travel via Manchester was on very overcrowded 2 car sprinters from Nottingham to Manchester and then usually required an additional change at Preston because services from Manchester to Glasgowhow were then very sparse and didn't connect.

Things in recent years have now greatly improved with the 2 hourly X/C service with one change at Sheffield. One change on the same platform at Manchester is also better but connections are not good in the Glasgow to Nottingham direction resulting in the booking websites usually showing the cheapest journeys involving an additional change at Preston. Also increasing the Nottingham to Manchester service to a four car 158 has helped to reduce the overcrowding.

I am not saying that Nottingham to Glasgow via the S&C would be a priority to reinstate but I must admit that on the rare occasions I have to travel from Alfreton to Glasgow I still prefer to travel via that route changing at Leeds and Carlisle despite the longer journey times.
The reasons why I make this choice are as follows:
With a little bit of playing around with the various TOC websites I can usually get the cheapest Advance Fares via Appleby.
Trying to board and then travel on X/C overcrowded voyager at either Chesterfield or Sheffield, even with a reserved seat is not pleasant. By the time I've travelled all the way from Sheffield to Glasgow on a Voyager my back is giving pain.
Changing at Manchester onto an overcrowded 350 or 185 is not really very much better than the the X/C voyager.
Travelling via Crewe means having to travel on an overcrowded 153 between Derby and Crewe and poor connections at Crewe on the return journey.
The only other reasonable alternative to to travel via the ECML and usually means changing at Grantham, Doncaster and Edinburgh.

In comparison to all of these, the slow Northern 158's from Alfreton to Leeds and Leeds to Carlisle, although tatty and in need of refurbishment, are actually quite relaxing and comfortable. I then usually travel by Virgin from Carlisle to Glasgow.

 

[D6975]

Some 185s will become surplus to requirements in a few years when the trans-pennine upgrade finally happens. A 2 hourly Leeds-Glasgow 185 could tailgate the Man Airport-Edin 350 north of Carlisle and therefore not cause too much of a pathing problem on the WCML given its higher speed (comp to 158). The Southbound could leave Glasgow so as to precede the returning Edin-Man Airport south of Carstairs, thus giving extra Glasgow-Man Airport journey possibilities. This assumes that you could get the interaction between the two routes to work.

 

[cuccir]

Whilst South Hampshire is a large conurbation, the enthusiast focus on Cross Country services to the south coast is always to Brighton, rather than Portsmouth.

Yes, you can change at Eastleigh/ Basingstoke etc onto XC today, but Portsmouth seems to be forgotten about (maybe because part of the appeal of XC to Brighton is running via unusual chords bypassing central London?).

Yes, Portsthampton, as I've decided that I'm going to call it , does seem to be underserved with regards to long distance services - it has London; Bristol; and XC to Manchester or Newcastle via Birmingham, and that's it.


As for Portsmouth, from a rail perspective at least, it seems to be to Southampton as Sunderland is to Newcastle, Wolverhampton is Birmingham and Bradford is to Leeds,

 

[Iskra]

I can see an Open Access company desperately looking round the map to try to find a gap in the market that isn't directly served already, or is just a copy of two existing services - since they have to ensure that it's not primarily abstractive.

That's why Open Access come up with ideas like Swindon to Birmingham, to try to exploit a niche between existing TOC boundaries.

That's different to the way that any TOC (or the DfT) would do sensible planning though

The Renaissance plan of Blackpool - Glasgow made more sense as a direct service, given the amount of people from Clydeside who go on holiday there or even retire there (with the "Bluenose" bars etc). That's a clear market.



Ah, so Nottingham doesn't need a link to large conurbations in the Midlands, but does need a direct service to Glasgow almost three hundred miles away?

Nottingham has a service to Birmingham, where you can easily connect to those destinations

Well, yes, but that's a fairly vague argument that could be used to justify a direct link between any places. Why is a direct link from Nottingham to Glasgow so desirable?

It's not just those two cities getting a direct link, and they are both large population centres! There are large markets inbetween too. In my opinion, the following are under-served with fast decent quality services:

Glasgow-Leeds/Sheffield/Nottingham (XC, is expensive, slow, crowded and fairly unpleasant, all large markets)
Carlisle-Leeds (one fast service per day, all others are very slow)
Appleby-Carlisle/Leeds (lack of fast trains to either)
Settle-Leeds (few fast trains to Leeds/Shipley, a tourist destination itself and gateway to the Dales so could be a sizeable market)
Skipton (lacks direct trains to many places, I appreciate it's hardly a metropolis but its a tourist destination in itself and it could do a decent tourist trade in the summer as it's the gateway to the Dales)
Shipley- Glasgow, Carlisle, Sheffield, Nottingham- essentially for Bradford passengers, plus Shipley and Ilkley residents (a large market when considered together)
Leeds-Sheffield- poorly served in my opinion and the new franchise still won't improve it enough.
Leeds- Nottingham- as above, but worse.


Some enthusiasts do suggest the GSW. Anyone care to justify this?

A minority do, and as I've already said, I personally think that would ruin any hypothetical Glasgow-Nottingham service.

Please don't confuse the "mainstream" with "what a lot of enthusiasts want"...

I think the 'mainstream' on here, would welcome it. The 'normals' (non-enthusiasts) are unlikely to care, until it came to the price of their journey being reduced, or not having to change trains, or stand in the vestibule of a 220 with a smelly toilet...

Does the WCML have spare capacity? Well, you don't want to use the GSW, so presumably you think that it does?

It does, North of Carlisle. Even more so if coal traffic declined. South of Carlisle, not so much

Part of the reason that the ECML and WCML struggle for capacity is that they serve a lot of busy places en route - rather than Settle/ Appleby.

Do they? North of Preston the WCML barely serves anyone outside the summer until it reaches Glasgow (coming from someone who lived there for six years). Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith and Carlisle are all fairly small and insignificant.

On the ECML, Newcastle to Edinburgh is sparsely populated and virtually none of the other stops have big populations until you reach London. Outside of London traffic, it's mainly people changing on to the ECML due to a lack of direct trains



Yes, I get that it links lots of different places, I just can't understand why people are so fascinated with linking these places with a direct train (rather than hundreds of other combinations of routes).

As pointed out, they are the biggest two that aren't linked and serve other decent populations on route- Sheffield, Leeds, Bradford catchment area and some of the smaller places draw in a lot of tourists.


I could draw a line on a map that serves much bigger places than the ones that you want to serve (Nottingham to Glasgow wouldn't serve anywhere of significant size between Leeds and Motherwell) .

That's no different to the WCML between Motherwell and Preston, or the ECML along a lot of its route.

You've said yourself that a "mainstream" of enthusiasts want this service, but where's the beef? What's the main selling point (other than it being relatively scenic)?


Wait... we need a direct Nottingham to Glasgow train because people prefer direct services, but people won't use the existing service from the East Midlands to Glasgow because it's not fast enough?

It's direct from the East Midlands; if you live in Derby or Chesterfield. It's not direct if you live in Nottingham, is it? And it's still an appalling service that is crowded, slow, circuitous and expensive.


Which way do you want it?



Well, there's a direct train every two hours from Glasgow to Leeds, which is the best service that it's had in as long as I can tell - possibly ever?

How much more frequent does it need to be?

It's awful, infrequent (2 hourly is not frequent), overcrowded, expensive and circuitous.

I remember doing Coventry - Nottingham in Central Trains days vie Nuneaton and Leicester.

Coventry is a reasonably sized city, about an hour's drive away from Nottingham (fifty miles?), but I don't remember seeing demands for a direct service (yet Glasgow, almost three hundred miles away...)



Ah, so Nottingham to Glasgow should exist because people prefer direct trains, but Nottingham doesn't need direct services to other places as long as there's one change?

It's long distance passengers who are less inclined to change, due to luggage etc.


You can do Nottingham to Glasgow by changing at Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Manchester or Leeds - which surely gives a number of options - so why does Nottingham to Glasgow require a direct service (because a same-platform-interchange at Manchester Piccadilly isn't good enough?) whilst Nottingham apparently doesn't need direct services to other places in the Midlands?



Well, I see comments that a Nottingham service would need to go to Glasgow up the S&C because the WCML is too full, yet apparently the northern end of the WCML isn't very full - yet 99% of the passenger services from Preston/ Lancaster/ Penrith to Carlisle continue up the WCML to Lockerbie/ Carstairs.

Freight will be dwindling away on the WCML over the next decade too.



When Brighton is mentioned, the northern destination never seems to be settled upon - it's more of a "why can't we have some different services and a couple of randomly timed trains a day to Kensington Olympia like BR did" rather than agreement on whether a Brighton service would go to Manchester or Leeds or anywhere else.



...but if the WCML is so busy then how are you going to run from Carlisle to Glasgow? Up the GSW?

Much of the freight on the WCML is going to be questionable over the next ten years, as "traditional"/ heavy industries decline.



It's certainly no crime - I just can't understand the continuing fascination for linking these two places.

Personally, I just think you're being facetious and jumping on this for attention/the reaction. Being from Sheffield, are you happy with your links to Glasgow, Carlisle, Leeds, Bradford, or Nottingham?

Sadly the replies I've had so far aren't shedding any light on why these two cities deserve a direct link (whilst lots of potentially bigger markets from each city have no such link).



I'm beginning to think that so many people suggest it because so many people suggest it (rather than any real need).

See above.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think that Nottingham could do with more direct trains north, to link together a number of possible destinations. After the opening of HS2 Phase 2, which should have a dramatic impact on the travellers between Birmingham and North East England, then I think that a Nottingham to Glasgow service would be a good idea, mainly to keep Sheffield and Leeds connected to Scotland's two largest cities.

As such, I would think that a Nottingham to Glasgow service would realise far greater revenues if it were to run via the ECML and pick up passengers making intermediate journeys from and to Sheffield, Leeds, York, Darlington, Newcastle, Berwick and Edinburgh. I don't see the attraction of running via the S&C where, after Leeds, the only prominent centre of population you encounter is Carlisle. The majority of prospective end to end passengers would still make the journey over the longer route because of the convenience of it being a direct train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Nor was I, but as a constant student of railway history and lore I do appreciate the nostalgic sentiment surrounding once-a-day named trains such as the "Thames-Clyde Express". It's a pleasing image, a big dirty locomotive of a past age hauling a long string of compartment carriages steadily onwards over the Northern fells...however I don't think that it has much relevance to modern day travel demands.

Don't make the mistake of assuming that this forum speaks for the majority: Like most internet forums, this is primarily an echo chamber for a minority of enthusiasts; the majority view is that of the everyday passenger "out there" in the real world.

I'm not. I was describing it as the mainstream view on this board.

I still genuinely believe that this service would provide tangible benefits to normal passengers too.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Someone in Northern (or possibly VTWC) seems to have been quite cute since Northern introduced advance tickets on the Settle-Carlisle route. Leeds-Glasgow tickets via this route now show up on NRE usually as the cheapest option with fares from £18.50, which I've booked a week or so in advance when the XC fares seem to be £40-£80.

The journey times of the 4 morning departures (8.30 to 1pm) are 4hr 12min compared with around 4hrs for the direct train, so again are competitive.

Given that the chance of line speed improvements on the S&C is zero, the only advantage of faster rolling stock would be savings on the 12min connection time at Carlisle. *

As for sending sending a through train to Glasgow on the scenic route would only see a rush for the doors at Carlisle.

Exactly my experience too, so if you were a non-enthusiast and your company wasn't paying for it, you'd choose via Settle every time!

* Faster stock would save time on the North WCML and on accelerating and decelerating for stations.

 

[southern442]

...but if the WCML is so busy then how are you going to run from Carlisle to Glasgow? Up the GSW?

Much of the freight on the WCML is going to be questionable over the next ten years, as "traditional"/ heavy industries decline.

Obviously north of Carlisle you only get TPE and Virgin so space isn't an issue there.

 

[lejog]

Carlisle-Leeds (one fast service per day, all others are very slow)

Please check a timetable, the "very slow" services are between 10 and 15minutes longer than the "fast".

Appleby-Carlisle/Leeds (lack of fast trains to either)
Settle-Leeds (few fast trains to Leeds/Shipley, a tourist destination itself and gateway to the Dales so could be a sizeable market)
Skipton (lacks direct trains to many places, I appreciate it's hardly a metropolis but its a tourist destination in itself and it could do a decent tourist trade in the summer as it's the gateway to the Dales)

Since I'm considering moving to Settle (population 2,500), I'm touched by the though it could prove a sizeable market. Along of course with Appleby (population 3,000) and Skipton, in relative terms huge with a population of 15,000. However I repeat the whole thrust of railway investment in the North is to improve the economy to improving connectivity between large towns and cities, not to improve railway revenue from small/medium sized market towns.

Shipley- Glasgow, Carlisle, Sheffield, Nottingham- essentially for Bradford passengers, plus Shipley and Ilkley residents (a large market when considered together)

Indeed Bradford is getting a new service from the city centre to Sheffield and Nottingham, not from Shipley. I admit a few Bradford to Carlisle services would be nice, if not exactly high priority compared with other destinations..

Glasgow-Leeds/Sheffield/Nottingham (XC, is expensive, slow, crowded and fairly unpleasant, all large markets)
Leeds-Sheffield- poorly served in my opinion and the new franchise still won't improve it enough.
Leeds- Nottingham- as above, but worse.

Well you do have both HS2 and NPR (is that what its called now?) to look forward to.

* Faster stock would save time on the North WCML and on accelerating and decelerating for stations.

Save time compared with existing Virgin services that you connect to at Carlisle? Exactly what stock are you proposing?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Couple that with Bradford Crossrail* and you're on to a winner!

OK, there's the small matter of a shopping centre in the way now, but no biggie...

Absolutely the first sensible proposal for a service using Bradford Crossrail that I've heard. Nottingham-Leeds-Bradford->Glasgow! Mind you it could be a bit less hassle to join a couple of DMUs together at Keighley or Skipton.

 

[Iskra]

Please check a timetable, the "very slow" services are between 10 and 15minutes longer than the "fast".

Psychological, perhaps but it certainly feels a lot slower! The 'fast' train is a breath of fresh air in comparison though.

Since I'm considering moving to Settle (population 2,500), I'm touched by the though it could prove a sizeable market.


I made it quite clear that the main market would be tourists. Settle also serves Giggleswick and the surrounding area.


Along of course with Appleby (population 3,000) and Skipton, in relative terms huge with a population of 15,000.

...No-one questions Skipton having a London train, and again it gets a lot of tourists, which I made clear.

However I repeat the whole thrust of railway investment in the North is to improve the economy to improving connectivity between large towns and cities, not to improve railway revenue from small/medium sized market towns.

So why have services been improved in the new franchise on the Settle and Carlisle, Bentham line and Tyne Valley? Should we just not bother with small places?


Indeed Bradford is getting a new service from the city centre to Sheffield and Nottingham, not from Shipley. I admit a few Bradford to Carlisle services would be nice, if not exactly high priority compared with other destinations..


Well you do have both HS2 and NPR (is that what its called now?) to look forward to.



Save time compared with existing Virgin services that you connect to at Carlisle? Exactly what stock are you proposing?

It would provide a direct journey. I'm not proposing any new stock, I'm saying it could improve the journey time if someone wanted to.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Absolutely the first sensible proposal for a service using Bradford Crossrail that I've heard. Nottingham-Leeds-Bradford->Glasgow! Mind you it could be a bit less hassle to join a couple of DMUs together at Keighley or Skipton.

^^^^^

 

[backontrack]

Local trains on the S&C need improving first. For example, how about morning calls at Dent and Horton so that they can be used by commuters?

 

[lejog]

Psychological, perhaps but it certainly feels a lot slower! The 'fast' train is a breath of fresh air in comparison though

No-one is going to provide a fast train because of your perceptions. Using the line 4-5 times a year, personally I don't care about a 2hr40min vs 2hr30min journey time. If you wish to use more objective measures - the rail industries modelling tools such a decrease in journey time may give you a small increase in passenger numbers (1 or 2% say). The benefit to passengers (at an opportunity cost of £6 per hour, which I think is around the going rate) would be £1.

I made it quite clear that the main market would be tourists. Settle also serves Giggleswick and the surrounding area.

...No-one questions Skipton having a London train, and again it gets a lot of tourists, which I made clear.

The population of Giggleswick is 1,200. Together with Settle say 4,000. And together they are served by two stations and two lines. The tourist economy is all very nice, but it only provides a small number of minimum wage jobs. There are three hotels in Settle, with at a generous guess 40 bedrooms between them, just how many of say 60 tourists are going to arrive by rail? Agree with it or not the (I hate to use the phrase) Northern Powerhouse is about better paid jobs in the cities.

I question Skipton getting a London train instead of say Huddersfield with a population 20times the size, its just operationally easier,

So why have services been improved in the new franchise on the Settle and Carlisle, Bentham line and Tyne Valley? Should we just not bother with small places?

I said "the main thrust of investment" would be to major cities/towns, not that other lines would see no improvements whatsover. Are these lines getting the £800m investment in the Northern Hub or what must be a similar amount spent on electrification? No they are getting a few extra DMUs a day.

It would provide a direct journey. I'm not proposing any new stock, I'm saying it could improve the journey time if someone wanted to.

I'll remind you of what you said:

*Faster stock would save time on the North WCML and on accelerating and decelerating for stations.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Whilst I would largely agree with tbtc that it's very difficult to make a realistic case for running long distance cross country services over the S & C (and I say this as a member of the FoSCL campaign group) I do think its worth remembering that this forum is a very broad church. Whilst like you I consider many of the ideas on this forum for new services / line re-openings to be unrealistic I don't think its at all helpful to dismiss such threads with derogatory statements / phrases such as "Thread closed " or "wibble" or I'm sad to say in my case "don't be so bloody stupid!". The same could also be said for trying to put words into people's mouths / telling down right fibs in order to strengthen your argument, none of which is at all helpful. This forum would be nothing without its members and I'm afraid such 'put downs' will only drive people away. Having said that debate is a very good thing, indeed as I have often done with yourself!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Freight will be dwindling away on the WCML over the next decade too.

Much of the freight on the WCML is going to be questionable over the next ten years, as "traditional"/ heavy industries decline.

It would appear that the freight traffic that once used the WCML to service traditional / heavy industries has already pretty much disappeared. In fact from what I can see the only sources of freight that you describe that are still using the northern part of the WCML is ballast / limestone from Shap and Hardendale (and Irvine) and petrol chemicals to Dalston and to Rolls Royce at Sinfin. I don't know how much there is left to quarry in the Shap area although of course one key customer (the steel works at Redcar) has already left the scene but its hard to make a case for the Dalston and Sinfin services finishing. And of course it may well be that these trains run at night when the WCML is less busy.

I can't see the current intermodal services finishing and given the savage cuts in wagon load freight what remains has clearly survived the recession and one would thought is likely to continue.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

A few points raised by recent posts, I'm not quoting the relevant passages as I'm on my phone and it'd take hours! Anyway...

Lejog, I appreciate the compliment but it wasn't a serious suggestion, Bradford Crossrail always struck me as a solution looking for a problem even before the Broadway centre was built!

The Nottingham to Bradford service will not need to cross the entire throat at Leeds, as unlike the currently Sundays only Nottingham to Carlisle service it will enter Leeds from the Outwood direction and will then run to Bradford Interchange, which isn't really much different to what the Doncaster to Leeds stoppers do currently as they turn around.

 

[Andrew1395]

I regularly travel Nottingham to Birmingham on XC. It is a tiny two car virtually empty train. Can Nottingham sustain long distance travel on its own to many destinations? Even STP to Nottingham in the evenings is very sparsely used.

 

[yorksrob]

Shame they can't link the Settle Carlisle 158 with the Nottingham one as was done on Sundays. The couple I've been on seemed to have a good few stay on at Leeds (including myself on one occasion) and if the through service became more well known, it might justify a 3 carriage 158 more regularly.

 

[Grinner]

Whilst a Nottingham-Glasgow service would be very useful to me personally (live in Paisley, parents in Nottingham) I do agree that I’m probably a fairly small demographic. However it has always seemed to me that Nottingham has poor connections to the north for a city of its size (and compared to Derby). A suggestion for speeding up the Nottingham-Manchester-Liverpool service by avoiding Sheffield (with replacement services to maintain frequency of Sheffield services form Manchester and Nottingham) has already been made up thread, but I’d also like to see a link to the ECML, preferably to York for connection with the fast services to Newcastle, Edinburgh (and yes Glasgow!).

 

[class26]

I regularly travel Nottingham to Birmingham on XC. It is a tiny two car virtually empty train. Can Nottingham sustain long distance travel on its own to many destinations? Even STP to Nottingham in the evenings is very sparsely used.

I frequently travel between Boston and Birmingham which entails using XC from Nottingham and it is NEVER virtually empty, more like full from departture

 

[The Planner]

Indeed, it is an aspiration to speed Brum Nottingham up as there is a lot of growth expected. Think of a "Nottingham in 60" type affair.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I did catch the loco hauled Nottingham - Glasgow via the S+C and the GSW in around summer 1978. Around 8 MK1 and (I think) a 45.

Very lightly loaded am afraid - and many passengers (not that there were many really) - decamped at Carlisle to the WCML.

 

[ScotTrains]

I think it's only a matter of time before the Waverley route reaches Carlisle. Perhaps we could have a Nottingham to Edinburgh thread too, via the Waverley and s&c routes of course!

 

[Andrew1395]

I frequently travel between Boston and Birmingham which entails using XC from Nottingham and it is NEVER virtually empty, more like full from departture

I must admit I travel midweek after 11.00 from Beeston, but compared to say a train from Milton Keynes to London at a similar time it is very lightly used. My experience is that there is never more than 60 people on the train, and normally a lot fewer, and most of them leave at Derby. Presumably that's why it's just a two or three car DMU shuttling between the two cities. Nottm has tens of thousands of students, but does not seem to generate many business travellers to provincial destinations. In fact when I have stayed in the city centre and then got a train out to Beeston, Nottingham station is hardly buzzing with people at 08.00. Birmingham Moor Street is a busier station, and Cambridge has 9 million users a year compared to Nottingham's 6 million a year.

 

[ivanhoe]

Nottingham suffers because of its closeness to Derby. Most Nottingham Birmingham trains are over an hour and the journey time to Derby is relatively slow, hence the success of Red Arrow. I just can't see the point in offering a service to Glasgow as things stand.

 

[muddythefish]

Nottingham - Glasgow doesn't make much sense and only existed in the early 1980s as a cutback version of the former St Pancras - Glasgow/Edinburgh trains that operated since the S & C was built in the 1870s.

There must be a case however for reinstatement of the old Thames/Clyde and possibly Thames/Forth expresses aimed at the leisure market and linking towns/cities such as Luton, Bedford, Wellingborough, Kettering, Market Harborough, Kettering, Leicester, Loughborough, Derby, Nottingham, Chesterfield and Sheffield with Scotland.

One train each way, travelling via the S & C and the Dumfries GSW route, would restore many direct links lost so many years ago and provide a tremendous boon to people who at present have no alternative other than to many many changes en route, or more likely, journey by road.

In the 1960s Bedford had direct trains (regular in many cases) to Glasgow, Edinburgh, Manchester and Bradford, none of which are possible now. It's time they were restored.

 

[DarloRich]

most of you don't live in the real world!

I could get from Bedford to Glasgow quicker by taking the Marston Vale to Bletchely and then MK and changing for a Virgin. Even one via the West Midlands would be quicker

 

[47802]

most of you don't live in the real world!

I could get from Bedford to Glasgow quicker by taking the Marston Vale to Bletchely and then MK and changing for a Virgin. Even one via the West Midlands would be quicker

Indeed and the idea of running the odd train to here there and everywhere has gone out the window in favour or more fixed interval timetables to a more limited range of destinations. True that might mean more changing of trains which might not be ideal for the elderly for instance but at the end of the day you can not please all the people all the time.

 

[muddythefish]

Indeed and the idea of running the odd train to here there and everywhere has gone out the window in favour or more fixed interval timetables to a more limited range of destinations. True that might mean more changing of trains which might not be ideal for the elderly for instance but at the end of the day you can not please all the people all the time.

.... and that is why I don't travel by train from Bedford to Glasgow. I don't want to change trains, I don't want to wait on a windy platform for good ness knows how long for a connection that may or may not arrive, I don't want to carry luggage up and down footbridge steps to change platforms more than I need to. I want a direct train, and if there was a direct Bedford - scotland train I would use it. As it stands, I always make the journey by car.

 

[bunnahabhain]

I must admit I travel midweek after 11.00 from Beeston, but compared to say a train from Milton Keynes to London at a similar time it is very lightly used. My experience is that there is never more than 60 people on the train, and normally a lot fewer, and most of them leave at Derby. Presumably that's why it's just a two or three car DMU shuttling between the two cities. Nottm has tens of thousands of students, but does not seem to generate many business travellers to provincial destinations. In fact when I have stayed in the city centre and then got a train out to Beeston, Nottingham station is hardly buzzing with people at 08.00. Birmingham Moor Street is a busier station, and Cambridge has 9 million users a year compared to Nottingham's 6 million a year.

I'm not entirely sure which Nottingham station you use, but the one I'm at regularly is pretty busy at 8am, it's just that the entry and exits are split by approximately half between the three entrances to the station, so if you're only basing it on the Carrington Street entrance your analysis will be skewed. Not only that... You also travel in from Beeston, which has the highest number of trains per hour into Nottingham than any other station in the area. Try getting one in from Kirkby or Hucknall and you'll be stood up at 8am on a 3 car set.

 

[Starmill]

.... and that is why I don't travel by train from Bedford to Glasgow. I don't want to change trains, I don't want to wait on a windy platform for good ness knows how long for a connection that may or may not arrive, I don't want to carry luggage up and down footbridge steps to change platforms more than I need to. I want a direct train, and if there was a direct Bedford - scotland train I would use it. As it stands, I always make the journey by car.

Really? Its not exactly a difficult journey with one change at Derby or Sheffield, both of which have indoor buildings and lots of amenities - you'd probably stop around there for a break in your car journey anyway?

Both are relatively easy to change at, are fully equipped with lifts and aren't huge and confusing. Derby only has two islands...

There can't be a direct train from everywhere to everywhere else. But there can be almost all cities within one easy change - which Bedford* and Glasgow are.

*I know.