Not-very-happy situation at Smallbrook Junction

[Calthrop]

A seeming unsatisfactory -- and not merely "a one-off" -- matter encountered, on a visit by me to the Isle of Wight Steam Railway on April 18th just gone. I was looking (in my case, just a non-essential "twiddly bit" to my travels) at taking the last scheduled journey of the day, on the line's then in force "Green" (minimum) timetable, from Havenstreet to Smallbrook Junction; changing at the latter point to the Island Line, to continue to Ryde. It turned out that that apparently simple manoeuvre was fraught with uncertainty. Our train's young and very conscientious guard, asked his passengers what their journey plans were; explaining the potential problem, to me and the several others who were looking to change at Smallbrook Junction and travel on to Ryde. Per his account: the Island Line train crews often fail to pay proper attention re connections at the Junction with Steam Railway workings. In this instance of the last such "on paper" connection of the day: the Steam Railway train's timetabled arriving at Smallbrook Jun. is at 1446. Island Line staff, it appears, often make no attempt to render it possible for passengers actually to make this connection: IL northbound train's booked time at the Junction, is 1446 -- train often formally halts there briefly at that time, then promptly departs, irrespective of passengers off the heritage line being able to board, or not.

The guard told us to be attentive at Smallbrook Junction; on arrival there, he'd find out "what was the score" re this issue, and inform us accordingly. He made it clear to us that although "on paper", the next two Island Line workings are booked to call at SJ -- in fact, they often simply fail to make those calls. Thus, if the actual 1446 connection failed, all would-be changers of train would have to get on the Steam Railway train again and travel back westward (if attaining Ryde was necessary, that would have to be by taxi from Havenstreet, or bus from Wootton). Staying on at SJ in the hope that the later Island Line trains would obey their timetable and call there, was not allowed: because of the considerable likelihood that they would fail to call there, leaving passengers marooned at the roadless Junction; with possible ramifications of people laying claims against the Steam Railway. In the event, the guard found that the Island Line train had, at the moment of the Steam Railway one's arriving, called momentarily at the Junction and then set straight off again -- no possibility of changing off the IOWSR, so all who had hoped to do so, had to re-embark on the heritage train. No practical "crisis" for me -- I was staying on the island -- but at least a couple of the people thus inconvenienced, found themselves in a bit of a parlous situation: they having pretty much counted on getting a particular crossing from Ryde to the mainland.

This whole business seems to me highly regrettable; destroying as it does, a good deal of the point of Smallbrook Junction's actually existing. One wonders concerning it, "How come"? If there are for some reason, feelings of hostility against the IOWSR on the part of Island Line staff and / or management: that would at least make a certain amount of bad sense. If it is simply apathy on the part of Island Line operating staff -- having them pointlessly "going through the motions" / outright disobeying instructions; or failure re planned scheduling, to allow sufficient latitude timings-wise, for occasions when there are passengers off the steam railway wishing to make the transfer to the electric line; those situations would appear unforgivable.

 

[Starmill]

SWR are obliged to have the trains call at the station according to the published timetable, because if they don't they can't provide the alternative transport this would then necessitate.

Why is the 1500 from Shanklin alleged to be not calling? It seems unlikely to me that SWR aren't calling when they're scheduled to...

 

[Calthrop]

I'm only going by what the guard said to us: he struck me as highly on-the-ball. It might be, I suppose, that he was pessimistically "escalating" in mind, what had occurred once or twice genuinely by mistake; to a regular happening...

 

[richw]

The 1446 island line meeting the 1446 steam railway won’t be a recognised connection. The island line is booked to depart as the steam railway arrives.

 

[43066]

Steam Railway workings. In this instance of the last such "on paper" connection of the day: the Steam Railway train's timetabled arriving at Smallbrook Jun. is at 1446. Island Line staff, it appears, often make no attempt to render it possible for passengers actually to make this connection: IL northbound train's booked time at the Junction, is 1446 -- train often formally halts there briefly at that time, then promptly departs, irrespective of passengers off the heritage line being able to board, or not.

Well yes, it is regrettable, but why is it the Island Line’s responsibility to plan its timetable around a tourist attraction? If the train is booked to depart at 1446 as the steam train arrives there is no way of anybody making that connection without delaying the train, with the resulting costs and knock on effect, which a heritage railway does not have to worry about.

It seems to me that the Isle of Wight Steam Railway could much more easily timetable its last working to arrive say ten minutes before the last Island Line train departs - indeed not doing this must surely be costing them a lot of business.

 

[Starmill]

I'm only going by what the guard said to us: he struck me as highly on-the-ball. It might be, I suppose, that he was pessimistically "escalating" in mind, what had occurred once or twice genuinely by mistake; to a regular happening...

I don't mean to suggest that he was negligent in any way. Merely that some mistaken communication within the Steam Railway is likely. The 1500 from Shanklin having its call in the schedule on Steam Railway days strongly suggests to me that this is the recognised connection.

 

[bramling]

Well yes, it is regrettable, but why is it the Island Line’s responsibility to plan its timetable around a tourist attraction? If the train is booked to depart at 1446 as the steam train arrives there is no way of anybody making that connection without delaying the train, with the resulting costs and knock on effect, which a heritage railway does not have to worry about.

It seems to me that the Isle of Wight Steam Railway could much more easily timetable its last working to arrive say ten minutes before the last Island Line train departs - indeed not doing this must surely be costing them a lot of business.

Two things:

Firstly, as you say, it is surely within the steam railway’s gift to time a more satisfactory connection.

But secondly I’ve always found the IOWSR a bit arsey on every occasion I’ve been on there, so none of this really surprises me. Certainly last year they were heavily into the whole pre-booking model, so it may well be they don’t really care that much for business of the Island Line.

Personally I’ve never felt particularly valued when visiting the IOWSR, and in some ways it’s one of the more tedious preserved railways. If it wasn’t for the fact that they do run some pretty historic rolling stock I wouldn’t bother visiting.

 

[43066]

Two things:

Firstly, as you say, it is surely within the steam railway’s gift to time a more satisfactory connection.

But secondly I’ve always found the IOWSR a bit arsey on every occasion I’ve been on there, so none of this really surprises me. Certainly last year they were heavily into the whole pre-booking model, so it may well be they don’t really care that much for business of the Island Line.

Personally I’ve never felt particularly valued when visiting the IOWSR, and in some ways it’s one of the more tedious preserved railways. If it wasn’t for the fact that they do run some pretty historic rolling stock I wouldn’t bother visiting.

I echo the sentiment re. pre booking. That also ties in perfectly with my observation that they had hung onto a lot of the unnecessary Covid theatre for rather longer than necessary on my first visit after lockdown. I seem to remember we were on the last train and it was fairly dead, which is a little depressing when we know the sector is in such trouble.

Thankfully we had arranged a taxi from
Havenstreet for our onward journey, so had no worries about onward connections (I’ll also admit I was more interested in the Island Line 1938 stock, which was considerably older than the 1950s steam loco we were hauled by!).

A schoolboy error like timetabling their last service to arrive so that the passengers watch the Island Line connection leaving seems amateurish and smacks of volunteers playing trains, rather than the much higher levels of professionalism other heritage railways have achieved in recent years.

 

[alholmes]

Well yes, it is regrettable, but why is it the Island Line’s responsibility to plan its timetable around a tourist attraction? If the train is booked to depart at 1446 as the steam train arrives there is no way of anybody making that connection without delaying the train, with the resulting costs and knock on effect, which a heritage railway does not have to worry about.

It seems to me that the Isle of Wight Steam Railway could much more easily timetable its last working to arrive say ten minutes before the last Island Line train departs - indeed not doing this must surely be costing them a lot of business.

But the 1446 Island Line train is not the last train. According to the timetable there are later trains at 1506 to Shanklin and 1516 to Ryde. The OP was saying the the IOWSR guard was suggesting that these two trains often don’t stop at Smallbrook - surely that’s what needs to be resolved, rather than the steam railway needing to change their timetable.

 

[Starmill]

But the 1446 Island Line train is not the last train. According to the timetable there are later trains at 1506 to Shanklin and 1516 to Ryde. The OP was saying the the IOWSR guard was suggesting that these two trains often don’t stop at Smallbrook - surely that’s what needs to be resolved, rather than the steam railway needing to change their timetable.

Indeed but one wonders if it's actually the case that they don't stop.

 

[43066]

But the 1446 Island Line train is not the last train. According to the timetable there are later trains at 1506 to Shanklin and 1516 to Ryde. The OP was saying the the IOWSR guard was suggesting that these two trains often don’t stop at Smallbrook - surely that’s what needs to be resolved, rather than the steam railway needing to change their timetable.

Fair point (I admit I missed that the first time). I’d take that with a pinch of salt to be honest. Nobody on the operational railway just decides not to stop at a station on a whim.

Having re read it, the whole thing sounds very odd, and I wonder if something was misunderstood/lost in communication.

 

[alholmes]

Fair point (I admit I missed that the first time). I’d take that with a pinch of salt to be honest. Nobody on the operational railway just decides not to stop at a station on a whim.

Having re read it, the whole thing sounds very odd, and I wonder if something was misunderstood/lost in communication.

I agree, it’s the sort of thing that I’m sure could easily be resolved by a phone call between the steam railway and Island Line, and then communicated to all of the steam railway guards.

 

[43066]

I agree, it’s the sort of thing that I’m sure could easily be resolved by a phone call between the steam railway and Island Line, and then communicated to all of the steam railway guards.

It’s also worth pointing out that if a train arrives just as another is due to leave, it’s not reasonable to expect the Island Line to wait, as they could then be stuck there for some considerable time. Of course if there’s another train in ten minutes (as appears to be the case), there’s no issue whatsoever!

 

[bramling]

Fair point (I admit I missed that the first time). I’d take that with a pinch of salt to be honest. Nobody on the operational railway just decides not to stop at a station on a whim.

Having re read it, the whole thing sounds very odd, and I wonder if something was misunderstood/lost in communication.

I wonder if it’s a case that the IOWSR simply don’t want passengers hanging around on the station after their last train has departed, hence the easy solution is to spin a bit of a tall story and blame it on IL. It smacks of a rather convenient excuse, which - from my experiences when visiting - is quite typical of how IOWSR carries on towards its visitors.

My impression is they simply want visitors to turn up by car, or even better by coach, at Haven Street, do the one cursory pre-booked “experience” and then foxtrot oscar. As their main clientele is essentially the supply of grockle tourists they don’t really need to give a warm welcome I suppose. That said, looking at trip adviser most of the reviews seem to be reasonable positive, so being fair maybe I’ve caught them on rough days.

 

[Gloster]

The Island Line suffers from the fact that nobody seems to be very interested in sticking up for it: it has just become a cash cow for companies to extract money. I have, for various reasons, come to the opinion that a lot of the staff are thoroughly demoralised as they fear that the line will be closed in the none too distant future. It has just had too much money poured into it, only for passenger numbers to plummet and costs to escalate, because the line has just driven its passengers away by lengthy closures and poor punctuality. Still, the private companies have received a lot of tax payers’ cash, so that will be mission accomplished.

 

[43066]

I wonder if it’s a case that the IOWSR simply don’t want passengers hanging around on the station after their last train has departed, hence the easy solution is to spin a bit of a tall story and blame it on IL. It smacks of a rather convenient excuse, which - from my experiences when visiting - is quite typical of how IOWSR carries on towards its visitors.

They did seem very arsey about people hanging around on the platform at Smallbrook Jn.

Then again the last time I went was part of a wider rail tour, and the behaviour of some of the enthusiasts was predictably diabolical, to the point where we felt genuinely embarrassed to be part of the same group!

 

[bramling]

The Island Line suffers from the fact that nobody seems to be very interested in sticking up for it: it has just become a cash cow for companies to extract money. I have, for various reasons, come to the opinion that a lot of the staff are thoroughly demoralised as they fear that the line will be closed in the none too distant future. It has just had too much money poured into it, only for passenger numbers to plummet and costs to escalate, because the line has just driven its passengers away by lengthy closures and poor punctuality. Still, the private companies have received a lot of tax payers’ cash, so that will be mission accomplished.

Yes I certainly picked up a demoralised vibe when I was there this time last year. The guards were functional and polite, but it was obvious there’s underlying issues.

 

[D365]

Easy solution to the Island Line quandary. Request stop facility at Smallbrook Junction?

 

[paul1609]

@Paul Hitchcock ?

 

[306024]

I went to the IOW railway last year, although the ‘connection‘ times at Smallbrook Jn were different, and involved a bit of a wait in both directions. However their staff at Smallbrook Jn seemed surprised I was risking the connection for the last train of the day back to Ryde, as ”it doesn’t always stop”. No issue, the train stopped as booked, but I was the only passenger.

 

[Gloster]

I think that Island Line does not like people on the platform at Smallbrook outside the advertised stopping times of the service due to the fear that they will either a) be a load of idiots who will stand too close to a passing train and try to stop it by putting out an arm, or b) decide to walk along the line to get home. (“‘Dad! What’s this other line, the third one? Can I walk on it?“ “It’s all mucky. Take your shoes off first or you’ll upset the landlady when we get back. Now, ups-a-dai—.”) Island Line have had to disrupt the service in the past because of people on the platform and I suspect that their irritation gets back to the IOWSR.

There seems a psychological inability in some people to understand that the other line at Smallbrook is not just another tiddly little holiday attraction but a proper railway. (Well, nearly.) This takes the normal stupidity or complacency that some people display in respect of railways to an even higher (or lower) level: those who might keep a look out when trespassing on their own local line completely fail to do so when on holiday.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think that Island Line does not like people on the platform at Smallbrook outside the advertised stopping times of the service due to the fear that they will either a) be a load of idiots who will stand too close to a passing train and try to stop it by putting out an arm, or b) decide to walk along the line to get home. (“‘Dad! What’s this other line, the third one? Can I walk on it?“ “It’s all mucky. Take your shoes off first or you’ll upset the landlady when we get back. Now, ups-a-dai—.”) Island Line have had to disrupt the service in the past because of people on the platform and I suspect that their irritation gets back to the IOWSR.

This is understandable given that there's no entrance or exit bar on a train, and if people get stranded they WILL just walk down the line and jump a fence, and understandably so because they're not just going to sit on an exposed platform all night.

What happened with proposals to run the Steam Railway into St John's Road? Is that viable? Would Smallbrook Farm agree to providing a path as an emergency exit, perhaps, or could one be run alongside the line on railway property to the road? It's not much different in principle to Dovey Junction, and there's footpath access to that.

 

[pdeaves]

Might there be, possibly, a situation where Island Line does not want people to disembark when there is no onward steam railway connection? The last trains may be treated as 'pick up only', and if no one is there, there is no one to pick up.

 

[Gloster]

This is understandable given that there's no entrance or exit bar on a train, and if people get stranded they WILL just walk down the line and jump a fence, and understandably so because they're not just going to sit on an exposed platform all night.

What happened with proposals to run the Steam Railway into St John's Road? Is that viable? Would Smallbrook Farm agree to providing a path as an emergency exit, perhaps, or could one be run alongside the line on railway property to the road?

I think this was mainly put up by the usual ‘Wouldn’t it be a good idea if someone else did something or other’ people. The IOWSR wasn’t against it, but I reckon that their attitude was rather to the effect that the small amount of extra earnings it would bring in would probably not be justified by the costs and problems involved. The IOWSR is very much orientated towards car-driving holidaymakers staying on the island, rather than day trippers.

Access by foot would have its problems: people getting in the way on the farm, parked cars obstructing entrances, rubbish and other human idiocies. I don’t know what the farm’s attitude would be, but if it were me I would be agin it. Everything is complicated by the long-running saga of the Pennyfeathers development on the east side of the railway: I can‘t see the developers seeing the possibility of tourists wandering through the estate being a plus point when trying to sell their de-luxe rabbit hutches.

Note: I have no connection with the IOWSR, just antennae.

 

[bramling]

I think this was mainly put up by the usual ‘Wouldn’t it be a good idea if someone else did something or other’ people. The IOWSR wasn’t against it, but I reckon that their attitude was rather to the effect that the small amount of extra earnings it would bring in would probably not be justified by the costs and problems involved. The IOWSR is very much orientated towards car-driving holidaymakers staying on the island, rather than day trippers.

Access by foot would have its problems: people getting in the way on the farm, parked cars obstructing entrances, rubbish and other human idiocies. I don’t know what the farm’s attitude would be, but if it were me I would be agin it. Everything is complicated by the long-running saga of the Pennyfeathers development on the east side of the railway: I can‘t see the developers seeing the possibility of tourists wandering through the estate being a plus point when trying to sell their de-luxe rabbit hutches.

Note: I have no connection with the IOWSR, just antennae.

This all being the case, perhaps Smallbrook Junction should be closed. There seems little value in it existing if the steam railway doesn’t embrace it. Sounds like it is creating more problems than it is solving.

I have used it in anger once, when doing a day trip to the island, and when it was possible to buy an IL/IOWSR rover ticket. Clearly the steam railway is far more interested in selling “experiences” now.

 

[zwk500]

This all being the case, perhaps Smallbrook Junction should be closed. There seems little value in it existing if the steam railway doesn’t embrace it. Sounds like it is creating more problems than it is solving.

Indeed, And given that the Red and Blue timetables could easily move the 14:35 departure to 14:30 to get there 5 minutes ahead of the Island line train you do have to ask how much will there is on the IoWSR side. https://iwsteamrailway.co.uk/visit/train-timetables/

 

[DarloRich]

a recent visitor to the IoW steam railway and user of Smallbrook junction here - no issues with the connection even if it was only 5 minutes. We visited on the busiest timetable colour which may help but we had no issues at all. None.

We got the bus to Wooton, bought a single to Smallbrook, alighted at Havenstreet for a cup of tea and an ice cream and got the last train to the junction. No issues. I also don't recognise this " experience" problem many seem to be reporting. What does that even mean?

 

[Calthrop]

Whew ! This whole business is clearly even less "happy" than it struck me as, a few days ago; and more complicated than I'd envisaged when posting.

Firstly, as you say, it is surely within the steam railway’s gift to time a more satisfactory connection.

But secondly I’ve always found the IOWSR a bit arsey on every occasion I’ve been on there, so none of this really surprises me. Certainly last year they were heavily into the whole pre-booking model, so it may well be they don’t really care that much for business of the Island Line.

Personally I’ve never felt particularly valued when visiting the IOWSR, and in some ways it’s one of the more tedious preserved railways. If it wasn’t for the fact that they do run some pretty historic rolling stock I wouldn’t bother visiting.

Perhaps allowances need making for my being nowadays in the throes of a love affair with the Isle of Wight (the place took a long time to "grow on me"), thus inclined to rose-tinted spectacles about things there, most of the time; but I have almost never -- in many visits over a good many years, to the Steam Railway (for which I think I'd have a lot of time even if it weren't on Wight !) -- found folk there, anything other than pleasant and welcoming. Once (way pre-Covid) there was an interaction which I didn't appreciate: guard or stationman, without consulting me as to preference, chivvied me into the line's curious "saloon" carriage with all seating round the edges -- an interesting thing, but I was just then in the mood for compartment travel, and would have liked to get a choice.

I have often found things generally on the electric line, rather sub-optimal; staff seeming not infrequently, a bit dejected and neglectful of their duties. This picture got on past occasions, led me easily to feel that in the Smallbrook Junction situation as discussed here, it was indeed those folk who were at fault; but per posts here, it certainly isn't them alone -- others, maybe, are more guilty. And I now realise that exchanging passengers at the Junction, and scheduling thereof, without more widely messing things up; is a more complex matter than I'd been imagining.

I wonder if it’s a case that the IOWSR simply don’t want passengers hanging around on the station after their last train has departed, hence the easy solution is to spin a bit of a tall story and blame it on IL. It smacks of a rather convenient excuse, which - from my experiences when visiting - is quite typical of how IOWSR carries on towards its visitors.

If this is so -- as, with reading the thread, it strikes me that it could well be -- then it's decidedly shabby behaviour on the part of the preserved line. The guard on my journey, perhaps made an erroneously good impression on me; though decidedly youthful, he came across as highly clued-up, articulate, pleasant in manner, and attentive to duty. Realise now that he could have been all of that; but still colluding in a policy of lies and calumny.

My impression is they simply want visitors to turn up by car, or even better by coach, at Haven Street, do the one cursory pre-booked “experience” and then foxtrot oscar. As their main clientele is essentially the supply of grockle tourists they don’t really need to give a warm welcome I suppose. That said, looking at trip adviser most of the reviews seem to be reasonable positive, so being fair maybe I’ve caught them on rough days.

As said, I've personally almost always found IOWSR personnel thoroughly OK -- even to tiresome people like me who come and go by public transport.

They did seem very arsey about people hanging around on the platform at Smallbrook Jn.

Then again the last time I went was part of a wider rail tour, and the behaviour of some of the enthusiasts was predictably diabolical, to the point where we felt genuinely embarrassed to be part of the same group!

Heavens ! Every group concerned here, begins to look like villains in the piece, to some extent...

This all being the case, perhaps Smallbrook Junction should be closed. There seems little value in it existing if the steam railway doesn’t embrace it. Sounds like it is creating more problems than it is solving.

I have used it in anger once, when doing a day trip to the island, and when it was possible to buy an IL/IOWSR rover ticket. Clearly the steam railway is far more interested in selling “experiences” now.

I've changed at the Junction quite a number of times, over a considerable number of years; without bother (accepting that a hoped-for connection during the day's workings might fall through, necessitating waiting for the next one): last week's problematic situation was new to me.

I'd feel very sad if Smallbrook Junction were abolished -- admittedly for sentimental reasons: financial and practical matters totally aside. It's rather a "kink" of mine, to feel a good deal more warmly toward a heritage line which has a genuine connection -- however tenuous or (as with Smallbrook) little-used -- with the "wider" system, than with one which operates in isolation therefrom. A line with such a connection just feels to me, more like a real railway; and less like a daft venue for aimless playing-with-trains. I appreciate that "isolation" is most often, a matter of how circumstances have worked out for the line concerned; and that those who run it, would probably wish that their line might indeed have a "connection with the network".

 

[zwk500]

a recent visitor to the IoW steam railway and user of Smallbrook junction here - no issues with the connection even if it was only 5 minutes. We visited on the busiest timetable colour which may help but we had no issues at all. None.

We got the bus to Wooton, bought a single to Smallbrook, alighted at Havenstreet for a cup of tea and an ice cream and got the last train to the junction. No issues. I also don't recognise this " experience" problem many seem to be reporting. What does that even mean?

On the busiest timetable there are presumably enough connections to make it work, and also presumably enough passengers for Island line to know to stop.

However if you look at the other two IoWSR timetables and the Island line times you'll see that the connections into the IoWSR on the first two trains of the day and the connections out of the last two trains of the day are very poorly timed, and without particular rhyme or reason given it's a single set in operation so there's no need to account for crossing moves at loops.

 

[DarloRich]

On the busiest timetable there are presumably enough connections to make it work, and also presumably enough passengers for Island line to know to stop.

However if you look at the other two IoWSR timetables and the Island line times you'll see that the connections into the IoWSR on the first two trains of the day and the connections out of the last two trains of the day are very poorly timed, and without particular rhyme or reason given it's a single set in operation so there's no need to account for crossing moves at loops.

The timetables clearly needs some work as the island line should be a key access point to the IoW railway especially for those coming from Portsmouth and the mainland - I simply say it worked fine when I was there and had no issues catching the last train of the day away from Smallbrook so to suggest it ALWAYS fails is incorrect.