Notice from Northern Rail - failure to produce a valid ticket

[SparkintheDark]

Hoping to gain some advice as to how to proceed with this. on 24JAN my husband was due to take the 11:51 direct Avanti service from Blackpool North through to London Euston with an Advance Single e-ticket. However, that service was cancelled, as was the next Avanti direct service from BPN. This meant that the only way he was able to pick up an Avanti service was by using a Northern Rail train from BPN through to Preston so he boarded a service destined for York.

Tickets were inspected during the journey and he was advised that he shouldn't be travelling on the service "with an Avanti ticket" (he was not given the opportunity to purchase a ticket from the inspector) and so they took his details and said he would hear in due course.

When he boarded an Avanti service at PRE he mentioned the incident to the staff member checking tickets and they proclaimed it "nonsense" and that he should have been able to travel BPN-PRE on a Northern train, given that his planned service had been cancelled.

He has today received the letter from Northern Rail - Debt Recovery And Prosecutions Unit stating that he had been unable to produce a valid ticket (at this point they are only seeking to 'recover the outstanding fare').

To this end, just wondering whether the fact he held an Advance rather than Off Peak ticket has left him liable or if there is any chance of recourse?

 

[Brissle Girl]

It is nonsense. I would quote 28.2 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel (link attached - 28.2 shown in the image) which clearly state your husband was entitled to travel on the Northern train as far as Preston.

And don’t forget to claim Delay Repay too based on the eventual delay time into London.

Your Rights and Obligations as a Passenger | National Rail

When you buy a train ticket to travel on the rail network, you enter into an agreement with the train companies. Find out about your rights and obligations as a passenger, and how to get more information.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

 

[jfollows]

I don't agree, if you have an advance ticket with one operator you can't just hop on a service operated by someone else.
There was no obligation by Northern to accept this as a valid ticket; technically what they did complies with the rules.
I'd be happy to be shown to be wrong, but I'd have asked for permission to use the Northern service first, or would have bought a new single ticket to Preston.
Yes, if it had been an off-peak ticket it would have been fine because these are valid on all operators, unlike advance tickets.
If Northern only wants to reclaim the unpaid fare and nothing else, then I'd pay it and be done with it.

PS I strongly dislike this Balkanisation of our railways, but it's where we are.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Considering 28.2 states:

Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your Ticket is valid and is being used, any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if necessary, provide overnight accommodation for you

And Avanti ran the 05:35 Blackpool North - Euston and then nothing else from Blackpool until 05:35 the next day I would agree with Brissle Girl.

 

[sheff1]

There was no obligation by Northern to accept this as a valid ticket; technically what they did complies with the rules.
I'd be happy to be shown to be wrong,

If Avanti had arranged ticket acceptance on Northern then Northern are obliged to accept it. I don't know if it is possible to easily find out whether ticket acceptance was in place or, if it wasn't, Avanti had arranged alternative transport (bus/taxi) ?

Even if formal ticket acceptance or alternative transport had not been arranged Northern were clearly in a position to reasonably provide an alternative way to get the passenger to Preston in line with the National Rail Conditions of Travel as quoted above.

I think the OP's husband should respond to Northern stating that they believe no outstanding fare is due but first wait to see if anyone can confirm or otherwise the situation with ticket acceptance/alternative trasnsport on 24 Jan as knowing that will inform best wording for the response.

 

[jfollows]

All of the above makes sense and I agree with it, but I wouldn't personally advise just getting on another operator's train with an advance ticket without asking first, easy to have wisdom in hindsight I know, but ask if it's OK first and be told that it is rather than assume. Clearly it would have been sensible and pragmatic to allow travel by Northern, but equally it's unwise to assume that it's OK.

 

[SparkintheDark]

All of the above makes sense and I agree with it, but I wouldn't personally advise just getting on another operator's train with an advance ticket without asking first, easy to have wisdom in hindsight I know, but ask if it's OK first and be told that it is rather than assume. Clearly it would have been sensible and pragmatic to allow travel by Northern, but equally it's unwise to assume that it's OK.

I do take your point but he's a regular user of that service and in the past when faced with this scenario (Avanti do like to cancel it, or have it start from PRE) he's been told by BPN station staff to use the next service going through to Preston and so that's what he did this time. Though in this scenario I don't think that would have helped him anyway as it would only be his word.

 

[Brissle Girl]

All of the above makes sense and I agree with it, but I wouldn't personally advise just getting on another operator's train with an advance ticket without asking first, easy to have wisdom in hindsight I know, but ask if it's OK first and be told that it is rather than assume. Clearly it would have been sensible and pragmatic to allow travel by Northern, but equally it's unwise to assume that it's OK.

It’s not just sensible and pragmatic of Northern to allow travel, it’s the passenger’s right that they do so, as there was clearly no practical reason why they could not.

So what if he had asked, been told to buy another ticket, did so and left it at that? He, and however many other people in the same situation did the same, would be out of pocket because Northern was not following industry rules.

 

[SparkintheDark]

It is nonsense. I would quote 28.2 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel (link attached - 28.2 shown in the image) which clearly state your husband was entitled to travel on the Northern train as far as Preston.

And don’t forget to claim Delay Repay too based on the eventual delay time into London.

Your Rights and Obligations as a Passenger | National Rail

When you buy a train ticket to travel on the rail network, you enter into an agreement with the train companies. Find out about your rights and obligations as a passenger, and how to get more information.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

This was my initial thought when he told me what had happened. It would be good if I could find out whether ticket acceptance was in place but Google searches as to how to do that are not bearing fruit. As irritating as it is, I think it's going to be a case of just pay it and know for next time (because there will certainly be a next time!) to seek assistance before boarding. There's the usual 14 days to pay the fare but I think it might be worth a phone call first just to see how they respond to him broaching the subject of the NR Conditions of Travel.

Delay Repay claim went in on 25JAN

 

[sheff1]

I do take your point but he's a regular user of that service and in the past when faced with this scenario (Avanti do like to cancel it, or have it start from PRE) he's been told by BPN station staff to use the next service going through to Preston and so that's what he did this time. Though in this scenario I don't think that would have helped him anyway as it would only be his word.

We don't know if Avanti normally arrange formal ticket acceptance when they cancel those trains or whether the station staff are acting in line with the NRcoT. In the absence of confirmation of the former it is best to note the name of the person giving the advice to use Northern. Staff at Blackpool North do have a reputation for being strict on allowing access to the platforms so someone stating they had asked and had been told to get the Northern service will carry more weight than it might do elsewhere (not that a passenger should be disbelieved immediately anywhere)

 

[Bertie the bus]

I can't see how formal ticket acceptance is relevant in this scenario where Avanti didn't run any services until the next day. The only relevant thing is whether Avanti provided rail replacement buses or not. I would be amazed if they had done but that is what needs to be known.

 

[sheff1]

This was my initial thought when he told me what had happened. It would be good if I could find out whether ticket acceptance was in place but Google searches as to how to do that are not bearing fruit. As irritating as it is, I think it's going to be a case of just pay it and know for next time (because there will certainly be a next time!) to seek assistance before boarding. There's the usual 14 days to pay the fare but I think it might be worth a phone call first just to see how they respond to him broaching the subject of the NR Conditions of Travel.

Because of this I would contact Avanti (in writing) asking what a passenger should do when holding a ticket to travel on a train which is cancelled from Blackpool North. Hopefully a written instruction to travel by Northern will be forthcoming which will be worth more than anything verbal. If they don't reply along those lines, there are other avenues for progreessing the matter.

I can't see how formal ticket acceptance is relevant in this scenario where Avanti didn't run any services until the next day.

It is relevant because written confirmation of ticket acceptance on Northern would allow any incorrect assertion to the contrary (including demanding a "fare due" which is not in fact due) to be refuted very easily.

 

[Bertie the bus]

It is relevant because written confirmation of ticket acceptance on Northern would allow any incorrect assertion to the contrary (including demanding a fare due which is not in fact due) to be refuted.

I disagree. Unless they provided alternative transport 28.2 states they could use an alternative operator, therefore whether formal ticket acceptance was in place or not is irrelevant.

 

[Brissle Girl]

In respect of alternative transport, one would expect that adequate effort would be made to make people waiting for the train aware of it. Clearly if there was (and I’m also in the “doubtful” camp) then it wasn’t enough to alert the OPs husband to it.

 

[sheff1]

I disagree. Unless they provided alternative transport 28.2 states they could use an alternative operator, therefore whether formal ticket acceptance was in place or not is irrelevant.

It doesn't.

Suprised you disagree that written confirmation would facilitate the refuting of incorrect assertions.

 

[Bertie the bus]

It doesn't.

What do you mean it doesn't? It clearly does. Northern were in a position to transport passengers booked on the cancelled Avanti service therefore they had a right to travel on Northern despite their ticket not being valid, unless Avanti provided an RRB.

 

[tpfx89]

What do you mean it doesn't? It clearly does. Northern were in a position to transport passengers booked on the cancelled Avanti service therefore they had a right to travel on Northern despite their ticket not being valid, unless Avanti provided an RRB.

My read of the CoT is that the line about any operator could refer to the operator responsible for the journey and not a "travel on any train" situation.

In that case it would place an obligation on the operator (Avanti) to make arrangements, which might include arranging ticket acceptance. It wouldn't give passengers permission to arrange their own alternative transport, which this would be if there was no TX on the NT services.

Avanti's failing if they hadn't arranged TX or made alternatives known to the passengers, but I would be careful about interpretation.

It looks like 28.2 would apply, as the next two trains were cancelled, which I think removes the option of completing the journey with them, but that places the onus on AWC to figure out their mess.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I have no idea how you can read

any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination

as referring to the operator responsible for the journey. It contains the word any.

If it was referring to the operator responsible for the journey the clause wouldn't exist at all because they quite obviously have a responsibility to get you to your destination.

 

[Skymonster]

With the 1151 and 1551 Avanti services binned, clearly Avanti wasn’t going to transport the customer from Blackpool to London for the rest of that day. Therefore, it would be reasonable to assume the disruption caused that prevented the OP from completing their journey (on Avanti) meant Northern had an obligation to help. However, prudency would still suggest checking with staff (and asserting one’s rights if necessary) before leaping on another TOC’s train.

 

[Bertie the bus]

However, prudency would still suggest checking with staff (and asserting one’s rights if necessary) before leaping on another TOC’s train.

People shouldn’t do that. If they have a right they should exercise that right and not ask if it is OK, to only be potentially told it isn’t when it is. If this involved a delay then fine, ask, but it didn’t. Unless Avanti laid on RRBs it meant the OP’s husband couldn’t have completed their journey at all.

 

[northwichcat]

It would be unusual for anyone to be allowed on a train at Blackpool North without first showing a ticket. If the inspector at the platform door accepted the Avanti tickets, then does the Northern guard have a right to refuse them?

 

[Skymonster]

People shouldn’t do that. If they have a right they should exercise that right and not ask if it is OK, to only be potentially told it isn’t when it is. If this involved a delay then fine, ask, but it didn’t. Unless Avanti laid on RRBs it meant the OP’s husband couldn’t have completed their journey at all.

In an ideal world sure, a passenger who knew their rights should not need to ask. But we here all know there are plenty of bloody-minded or insufficiently educated staff working on the railway who will insist they know best or will not accept anything out-of-the-norm without official sanction from control. I suggest there’s plenty of justification for the OP to write to Northern to say they don’t owe anything on the basis of 28.2 and that there were no Avanti trains for the rest of the day. But, as I said, on the day when it happens savvy passengers would prudently ask rather than blunder on assuming that staff will play ball.

It would be unusual for anyone to be allowed on a train at Blackpool North without first showing a ticket. If the inspector at the platform door accepted the Avanti tickets, then does the Northern guard have a right to refuse them?

Last two times I’ve been through Blackpool North no tickets were checked at the doors (although they were opened only a few minutes before departure) and the main barriers were open too! Perhaps the staff are getting softer in their old age or maybe they’re less bothered on a quiet, cold, damp day in January.

 

[northwichcat]

Last two times I’ve been through Blackpool North no tickets were checked at the doors (although they were opened only a few minutes before departure) and the main barriers were open too! Perhaps the staff are getting softer in their old age or maybe they’re less bothered on a quiet, cold, damp day in January.

When I used the station in November the barriers were open but staff were doing manual checks.

 

[Titfield]

This was my initial thought when he told me what had happened. It would be good if I could find out whether ticket acceptance was in place but Google searches as to how to do that are not bearing fruit. As irritating as it is, I think it's going to be a case of just pay it and know for next time (because there will certainly be a next time!) to seek assistance before boarding. There's the usual 14 days to pay the fare but I think it might be worth a phone call first just to see how they respond to him broaching the subject of the NR Conditions of Travel.

Delay Repay claim went in on 25JAN

Searching on Twitter may find a tweet indicating ticket acceptance was in place.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

This is appalling behaviour from Northern.

I would write a short, coincise letter saying that the Avanti train between Blackpool and Preston was cancelled, as were all the other Avanti operated trains that day. Consequently, that is why you took the decision to travel on the Northern service as under condition 28.2 of the NRCoT Northern were in a position to assist, and you would have been stranded had you not done so. Ask them to confirm that this explanation is satisfactory and to confirm that no further action will be taken.

Should Northern persist with further action then I would get either the Ombudsman and/or Transport Focus involved.

 

[nanstallon]

Great advertisement for rail travel, isn't it?

 

[Bertie the bus]

In an ideal world sure, a passenger who knew their rights should not need to ask. But we here all know there are plenty of bloody-minded or insufficiently educated staff working on the railway who will insist they know best or will not accept anything out-of-the-norm without official sanction from control. I suggest there’s plenty of justification for the OP to write to Northern to say they don’t owe anything on the basis of 28.2 and that there were no Avanti trains for the rest of the day. But, as I said, on the day when it happens savvy passengers would prudently ask rather than blunder on assuming that staff will play ball.

It has nothing to do with an ideal world. A right is a right. No permission is required and shouldn't be sought.

Some people on here seem to think all public facing rail staff should know the NRCoT off by heart. That is an unrealistic expectation. What they will know is what the company has told them in training, and training is frequently sadly lacking. Therefore, asking a member of staff something they probably won't know when you do know is both pointless and can never result in a better outcome than not asking them at all.

 

[sansyy]

It has nothing to do with an ideal world. A right is a right. No permission is required and shouldn't be sought.

Some people on here seem to think all public facing rail staff should know the NRCoT off by heart. That is an unrealistic expectation. What they will know is what the company has told them in training, and training is frequently sadly lacking. Therefore, asking a member of staff something they probably won't know when you do know is both pointless and can never result in a better outcome than not asking them at all.

You'd think though basic guidelines such as 28.2 SHOULD be standard for staff and ticket inspectors to know as it is their job to check and permit people to ride on the train. I'd understand if it was something not frequently seen or out of the scope of the staff but no, ticket acceptance guides alongside knowing the vague routes a ticket is allowed on should be basic knowledge for ALL staff regardless. Shocking seeing more and more staff clueless about their own job.

 

[furlong]

Not only that, but if there were multiple Avanti cancellations then in theory Northern can lose its licence to operate trains if it refused to honour the tickets. A formal complaint should go to the DfT setting out the full circumstances and inviting them to investigate the multiple failures at Northern (even if frontline staff got this wrong, the back office should have spotted that and sent a letter of apology instead of a demand for payment), whether any other passengers were affected on this or other occasions, to remind Northern of its obligations under the so-called 'Obligation to Carry' ref. TSA 10.2 1 (b), and to ensure Northern puts right any mistakes e.g. refunding with additional compensation all passengers who received similar letters and paid up on any such occasion. In the absence of an Ombudsman with the necessary powers, the DfT is left to handle this stuff itself. Copy to your MP to make sure the DfT doesn't try to brush it under the carpet.

 

[Llanigraham]

I would suggest there is more chance of hell freezing over than Northern losing it's licence to operate trains over something like this.