notice to prosecute....carnet ticket

[bexylos]

Hi there

i was wondering if someone could advise me.
I was travelling with a carnet ticket two months ago on First capital connect,This type of ticket is the one where you write the date on the ticket at time of travel. I had used a roller ball pen with black ink. I got on the train and 5 minutes later had my ticket checked by a inspector who proceeded to vigorously rub the date off my ticket and then inform me that my ticket was invalid as I had not used the right kind of pen to write the date he said my ink was not permanent enough. I was travelling at 9am after a long twelve and a half hour night shift (I am a midwife). I was incredibly tired and incredibly shocked and upset at what happened. He demanded a penalty fare and cost of a new ticket. I felt victimised. I felt as if a crime was being committed against me by first capital connect rather than the other way around. In the heat of the moment I said something I regretted. I asked the guard if he was racist (I am a person of colour). I was tired and emotional and felt bullied. I also demanded that he give me my ticket back.
Anyway he then accused me of abuse and stated that he would have to call a plain clothed police officer who was on the train. (oh how i wish i had recorded the incident which ensued). The police officer arrived and informed me that the situation had gone beyond a penalty fare scenario and that first capital connect would have to pursue court action against me. I was escorted off the train and made to fill in some forms. I explained that i was an upstanding member of society and not a criminal. I did however refuse to pay the fine as I had already bought a ticket prior to my journey and filled in the date as required. There are electric gates and guards at Hitchin station where i got off so how on earth could I have tried to defraud FCC with this ticket. The police officer then had the cruelty to inform me that if he had to come to court and testify then i would definitely end up with a criminal record. He said i should enjoy my last days as a midwife because i would not be able to practice for much longer as a criminal record would be assured.
As you can imagine after 24 hours with no sleep a long shift at work and this horrible situation i went home distraught.
I have just received FCC notice of intention to prosecute and am accused of using offensive language and entering a train for the purpose of travelling without a ticket entitling travel.
I am flabbergasted. Where do I stand??

 

[jon0844]

I presume FCC retained the ticket? I am not sure you can be done for using the wrong kind of pen, even if FCC may issue pens on demand (I don't think they do so for every sale of carnet tickets, and what if they run out?). However, if it is suspected that you've tampered with it, then that's a whole different story and they'll pass the ticket on to their forensic people.

Mind you, if he's rubbed it off and made a mess of it, I doubt they'd be able to prove anything in court anyway. How could FCC prove any damage wasn't done by the RPI?

It's unfortunate that you used offensive language and made a claim of racism, as that might now be something that gets you in trouble - although that would be a difference offence.

The only way a charge will stand for the carnet is if it wasn't dated, or had been modified. I cannot believe for one second that you could be done for using the wrong kind of pen and it not being permanent enough. In my experience, a ballpoint pen might not always leave ink (hence the need to use a 'Sharpie' or similar) but it will always dent the ticket.

 

[drbdrb]

One lesson to be learnt from this sorry episode, is if there is *any* comment from a ticket inspector, other than an acknowledgement that all is well, is to say nothing at all until you start recording the event, preferably a video recording.

 

[Stigy]

Judging by how you described the charges against you, it sounds as though these matters are being dealt with as Byelaw offences under Byelaw 18(1) and 6(1)/(2) of the National Railway Byelaws. That being the case, although criminal matters, they are non-recordable so shouldn't be a paper trail that would mean you had to declare the matter for the benefit of a DBS check (formerly CRB).

 

[Economist]

I seem to recall reading that carnet tickets had a magnetic strip which was read when a ticket was inserted into a gate and the details are then recorded on a database. You've mentioned that Hitchin has gates so FCC should be able to see whether or not you've used the ticket before by viewing the database.

I've never used these carnet tickets myself so I'm not totally certain but I thought I'd mention anyway.

 

[bb21]

I am of the opinion that a charge under Byelaw 18 is doomed to fail on this occasion if the OP's account of the incident is accurate.

Shocking behaviour by the RPI.

You've mentioned that Hitchin has gates so FCC should be able to see whether or not you've used the ticket before by viewing the database.

What database?

 

[Be3G]

It distresses me that FCC seem to be using carnet tickets as nothing more than a ‘bully me’ sign for the holder.

bexylos: if it's of any help, there was a case here of FCC wanting to prosecute a carnet holder before, but they chickened out when they realised the accused would be mounting a robust defence and the train company didn't have a leg to stand on.

 

[Clip]

I am of the opinion that a charge under Byelaw 18 is doomed to fail on this occasion if the OP's account of the incident is accurate.

Shocking behaviour by the RPI.

Whilst we do have to take on board what the OP is saying surrounding the situation I must point out here - If True. Remember the OP had already at that point asked the RPI if they were racist. This in itself is inexcusible behaviour. This isnt some Ali G show here you know and will have exscalated the situation further than it should have gone.

Now whilst I agree the RPI should not automatically go round rubbing the dates to see if the wrong pen is used - maybe the RPI saw something wrong with the ticket and then rubbed it to show more of what they thought was there.

Lots of emotive words used by the OP especially when the Police officer had the 'cruelty' to inform them of the gravity of the situation. This never helps.


OP what exactly does the letter say that you are being prosecuted under?

 

[Haywain]

I seem to recall reading that carnet tickets had a magnetic strip which was read when a ticket was inserted into a gate and the details are then recorded on a database. You've mentioned that Hitchin has gates so FCC should be able to see whether or not you've used the ticket before by viewing the database.

I've never used these carnet tickets myself so I'm not totally certain but I thought I'd mention anyway.

That is complete and utter nonsense. The necessary information does not exist on the tickets.

 

[yorkie]

We only have one side of the story. But, if true, then it wouldn't be the first time!

I know of a solicitor who has had success with FCC in the past. They are not cheap, but in the case in question their costs were passed on to FCC to pay. If you are certain what you say is true, then I would get a solicitor such such experience of success on the case and I wouldn't worry about it too much, as knowing how they took FCC to task last time, I am confident they could do so again!

Of course if the able isn't a true account then it would probably be advisable to settle the matter out of court instead.

 

[bb21]

Whilst we do have to take on board what the OP is saying surrounding the situation I must point out here - If True. Remember the OP had already at that point asked the RPI if they were racist. This in itself is inexcusible behaviour. This isnt some Ali G show here you know and will have exscalated the situation further than it should have gone.

Now whilst I agree the RPI should not automatically go round rubbing the dates to see if the wrong pen is used - maybe the RPI saw something wrong with the ticket and then rubbed it to show more of what they thought was there.

Lots of emotive words used by the OP especially when the Police officer had the 'cruelty' to inform them of the gravity of the situation. This never helps.


OP what exactly does the letter say that you are being prosecuted under?

I was actually referring to the RPI rubbing off the date.

I can of course only go by what the OP said, and fully appreciate that it is only one side of the story, however in the absence of anything else, that is as good as we are going to get.

If he were really concerned about something, the ticket should have been withdrawn and sent for further analysis. I do not agree at all that he should be allowed to do what he did.

Now how can that ticket be presented as evidence if he has tampered with it? Even if it were to be a cast-iron victory for FCC, the RPI will have now likely cost his employer this case.

 

[furlong]

On a previous occasion:

Judge Matthews ruled FCC had acted with "unfair misconduct" because they had failed to accept liability in initial proceedings despite appearing to know the ticket was valid.

so I would also suggest you seek professional advice to make sure that if FCC also attempts to treat you with "unfair misconduct" you are able to challenge and expose this in an appropriate and measured manner.

(Other things to consider: Put the carnet terms and conditions alongside 18(3) which states circumstances in which no person shall be in breach of the second byelaw you referenced and see if this might apply. Was the ticket "peak" or "off peak"? At which station and on what day of the week did you begin your journey and were there facilities in working order for ticket issue? Did the station provide the facility of "permanent ink" for your use? What would it mean for a ticket to be "valid" but not "validated" in terms of "entitlement to travel"? With what ease did the inspector rub out the date on the ticket?)

 

[andythebrave]

Wonder if the pen was a Pilot FriXion?

 

[jon0844]

When I didn't have a suitable pen, knowing full well that it would scratch the surface of the ticket and instantly look suspicious, a member of staff stamped it with the date and told me to clearly write the date on the reverse.

Now, I expect that given the boxes weren't filled in, I'd actually be open to grief too - although it wasn't checked on that occasion on my journey. But what else could you do?

At the station, with a biro that's almost guaranteed to not work, and have been advised by FCC staff one thing - but wonder if RPIs will take a different approach.

I concluded (well, for many reasons) that the carnet system is a joke. When they add them to their new mobile ticketing service (which is planned according to a recent release) then perhaps they'll be a little safer. Of course, you'll then need to make sure you carry a fully charged mobile that can produce the necessary barcode on demand! That introduces problems of its own too.

Smartcards are the proper solution. You can then charge for tickets at the normal price and simply give a discount/refund equivalent to the saving on a carnet when applicable. I really do hope that we get these in the next franchise early on.

 

[cuccir]

FCC's past behaviour in relation to carnet tickets leaves me more inclined to believe bexylos than I might be in other cases.

Again, taking this account at face value, I'd emphasise that from a ticketing perspective that bexylos has done nothing wrong.

With regards to the language used - it would be useful for you to try and write down a full transcript of your conversation now. The RPI will have notes which will help him form a clear and robust statement with regards to what was said: you will want the same.

An appropriate response will depend upon the exact conversation that took place between yourself and the RPI. If your comments to him extended only as far as the question of whether this was racist (as opposed to an accusation) and were not accompanied by any other insults, swearing etc, then I'd advise to write a factual response (removing questions of victimization, tiredness etc) stating that you wrote the date on the ticket, and would fully challenge any attempt at prosecution, with legal support.

If on the other hand there were further comments from you which you might now regret, it might be advisable to speak to a lawyer and to take a less combative approach.

 

[tony6499]

Seems that something must have been said by the OP that needed a police intervention, once allegations are made such as she did then matters tend to spiral out of control

 

[Tetchytyke]

That being the case, although criminal matters, they are non-recordable so shouldn't be a paper trail that would mean you had to declare the matter for the benefit of a DBS check (formerly CRB).

The Nursing and Midwifery Council have higher standards than a CRB check, though. I've seen unfortunate Facebook rants see people get disciplined by them. I don't say that to scare the OP.

 

[Flamingo]

I was sympathetic for the OP up until I read her admission that she had accused the staff of being racist for questioning her over her ticket.

That will be what FCC should quite rightly go after her for.

 

[rdwarr]

I was sympathetic for the OP up until I read her admission that she had accused the staff of being racist for questioning her over her ticket.

That will be what FCC should quite rightly go after her for.

As a passenger I feel exactly the same as you! It appears that the OP said something to the RPI that she would not have said to somebody with a different skin colour.

FCC have a terrible reputation when it comes to carnet tickets but two wrongs don't make it right.

 

[TheEdge]

I was sympathetic for the OP up until I read her admission that she had accused the staff of being racist for questioning her over her ticket.

That will be what FCC should quite rightly go after her for.

Agreed with this to a point. Although I have a distinct feeling their is something missing here...

In the heat of the moment I said something I regretted. I asked the guard if he was racist (I am a person of colour). I was tired and emotional and felt bullied. I also demanded that he give me my ticket back.

Did something else happen between these two points?

Anyway he then accused me of abuse and stated that he would have to call a plain clothed police officer who was on the train.

If something similar happened to me and I was accused of being racist while I'd be insulted and probably stop dealing with the situation outright I wouldn't be calling the police over.

 

[jon0844]

The ticket design can make perfectly legitimate carnet tickets easily look like they've been tampered with, so the only safe way to deal with one is to not buy one!

Perhaps when we get the new ticket design, there will be space to have the date written on in the middle section which isn't coated the same way and usually works with most pens?

The problem, as I found with one RPI to my peril, is that if an RPI suddenly thinks s/he has found a possible fraud, they latch on and won't let go.

And, to be fair, I suspect rather a lot of people do attempt to tamper with a carnet ticket as it's probably extremely easy to do for things like making a ticket on the 1/4/2014 be usable again on the 11th, and maybe also the 14th, if someone thinks ahead.

Given how easy it is to avoid the gates and be let through manually, perhaps simply by carrying something that invites staff to wave you through, I bet fraud is rife.

Sadly, this means a lot of innocent people will get caught up in it, until FCC makes it (near) impossible for such easy fraud to be carried out, or scraps the carnet offering.

But you can never lose your cool and start being abusive or throwing around wild accusations. Staff have a right to suspect a crime might have been committed and to deal with things properly, although the wrong kind of pen doesn't seem to be an offence I'm aware of in this case.

 

[Economist]

From what I am aware, FCC uses the CUBIC FASTis ticketing system. I have read (on CAG) that all tickets the details on the magnetic strip are stored on the CUBIC backend software and this information can be extracted into an Excel file and filters (such as numerical order) added to search for a specific ticket. When a ticket goes through a gate, apparently the data held on the magnetic strip is changed to indicate so.

Interestingly, there was a Freedom of Information request made to Tfl a few years back about what data was contained held on a ticket. They were able to legally withhold some information since releasing it would make it possible for people to alter the magnetic strip, so it does seem to have a use of some sort.

From what others have said since the RPI in this case altered the OPs ticket, FCC don't have the strongest case, thought I'd post the above to try and clarify what I said earlier.

 

[Smudger105e]

The Nursing and Midwifery Council have higher standards than a CRB check, though. I've seen unfortunate Facebook rants see people get disciplined by them. I don't say that to scare the OP.

That can happen in any business, and not really anything to do with DBS checks

I was sympathetic for the OP up until I read her admission that she had accused the staff of being racist for questioning her over her ticket.

That will be what FCC should quite rightly go after her for.

But surely that will depend on what the NIP says? Would a ticketing irregularity NIP not be issued by the TOC involved? Surely a racism charge would have to issued by the CPS/Police?

And I am asking, not telling!

 

[Flamingo]

TOC's are able to start private prosecutions, I know of a few cases where BTP/CPS have not been willing to prosecute after assault and FGW have successfully made a private prosecution.

Edited to add: http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/69771/Rail-thug-s-victim-finally-gets-justice

 

[Smudger105e]

TOC's are able to start private prosecutions, I know of a few cases where BTP/CPS have not been willing to prosecute after assault and FGW have successfully made a private prosecution.

Well I didn't know that!! It will, however still depend on if the racism et al. was/is mentioned on the NIP?

 

[Flamingo]

I wouldn't know, to be honest. One for Dave or Fare-Doc

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . One for Dave or Fare-Doc

you rang?

I must be brief - I'm on a train.

I would say "yes". Anyone (with some limitations) can instigate criminal proceedings - there are some high profile examples such as the parents of the killed Stephen Lawrence, although that one failed. Others have succeeded including some that I've been involved with.

 

[Hassocks5489]

From what I am aware, FCC uses the CUBIC FASTis ticketing system. I have read (on CAG) that all tickets the details on the magnetic strip are stored on the CUBIC backend software and this information can be extracted into an Excel file and filters (such as numerical order) added to search for a specific ticket. When a ticket goes through a gate, apparently the data held on the magnetic strip is changed to indicate so.

Interestingly, there was a Freedom of Information request made to Tfl a few years back about what data was contained held on a ticket. They were able to legally withhold some information since releasing it would make it possible for people to alter the magnetic strip, so it does seem to have a use of some sort.

From what others have said since the RPI in this case altered the OPs ticket, FCC don't have the strongest case, thought I'd post the above to try and clarify what I said earlier.

Currently on (Great Northern routes) FCC it's a mixture of Cubic FasTIS and TRIBUTE. The only ones with FasTIS are Finsbury Park, Drayton Park and Essex Road. Ex-Thameslink stations have Shere SMART Terminals.

 

[Clip]

From what I am aware, FCC uses the CUBIC FASTis ticketing system. I have read (on CAG) that all tickets the details on the magnetic strip are stored on the CUBIC backend software and this information can be extracted into an Excel file and filters (such as numerical order) added to search for a specific ticket. When a ticket goes through a gate, apparently the data held on the magnetic strip is changed to indicate so.

Interestingly, there was a Freedom of Information request made to Tfl a few years back about what data was contained held on a ticket. They were able to legally withhold some information since releasing it would make it possible for people to alter the magnetic strip, so it does seem to have a use of some sort.

From what others have said since the RPI in this case altered the OPs ticket, FCC don't have the strongest case, thought I'd post the above to try and clarify what I said earlier.

The gates do indeed shcnage the data on the back of the ticket but the gates are not linked to the TIS. You can feed the ticket in to see where it was last used and it will show you.

 

[WillPS]

With regards to the racism allegation - that was probably a stupid thing to say.

However - I don't see why that should have any bearing on the rest of your case. As has been said, FCC have form on this and if it's as you say I'd be surprised to see this upheld in court.

If FCC are persuing you for abusing staff, then I reckon that's probably outside of the remit of this forum. I think it's important we get clarity on this point.