Nottinghamshire & Derbyshire Bus News

[zakky1.0]

Nottingham city Council has started discussing the cuts it will have to make being the latest Council to go bust.
Further unspecified cuts to the link network are proposed as well as cutting funding to two bus park and ride sites and Victoria bus station

& how much funding did NCT get towards these electric yutongs that could've been more useful elsewhere?

 

[Deerfold]

& how much funding did NCT get towards these electric yutongs that could've been more useful elsewhere?

£15.2 million, but from the DfT, who weren't offering it for anything other than electric buses.

 

[Andy Pacer]

£15.2 million, but from the DfT, who weren't offering it for anything other than electric buses.

Specifically electric, or zero emission?

 

[STINT47]

It will be intresting to see what happens with Victoria Bus Station as I'm not sure how they can make savings on it's running costs.

When I worked for Trentbartin managers within the company and staff at the council said that the fees paid by the bus companies (Trentbarton and Stgecoach) to use the bus station only covered arround 50% of the cost to run it, the shortfall being made up by the council.

If the council want to reduce the running costs then the options do seem limited and none have much appeal.

One option could be charging the bus companies more to use the station but would they be prepared or even able to pay higher charges given how many bus routes struggle to make a profit as it is? Perhaps they would keep the routes but adandon Victoria Bus Station if this was implemented.

Alternativley the council could close the station and divert buses to on street stops or Broadmarsh but then you would have a bus station sitting empty, hardly a good look for the city, They link the closure with plans for redevelopment of the land. An interesting question is do Victoria Shopping Centre still want to expland omto this land as proposed a few years ago?

At one point in the past I was told that Trentbarton was offered the chance to take over the running of Victoria Bus Station. This would have meant that they would have no longer paid fees and would have collected charges from Stagecoach but in return for this they would become respomsible for all maintance and repairs. After consideration this was rejected but perhaps if more generous terms were agrees this could be a way forward?

A final option would be to cut back maintance at the bus station but it's already in a poor state and I cannot see much if any savings being available by doung this. When I have used it as both a driver and as a passenger I always got a feeling of neglect with both public and staff areas needing work and that the council were already cut back as much as they could.

Personally I can see it being closed with some buses diverted to Broadmarsh (Red Arrow, Rainbow One and Two's down Maid Marion Way to the statio ) and others using on street stops near Victoria Centre (Three's, Pronto, 141 and Sherwood Arrow) whilst some vague suggestion that the area will be redelveoped in the future will be made to keep everyone happy about having a mothballed tatty bus station.

 

[DDB]

Had a council new email with a summary of the cuts. I've pasted the public transport ones below.

Reducing public transport infrastructure to minimum statutory provision including the removal of funding to operate two bus-based park and ride sites, Victoria Bus Station and the real time passenger information system.
Reducing all linkbus services to statutory minimum provision, removing Easylink and withdrawing the funding contribution to the Medilink service
Moving to the minimum statutory provision of Concessionary Fares for which would remove the concession from the tram and companion pass holders and funding for managing the Robin Hood Scheme.

 

[cnjb8]

Had a council new email with a summary of the cuts. I've pasted the public transport ones below.

This is a really sad time for Nottingham. The diminishing of the Link network has been really sad to watch as well, considering how many Optare electric Solos and Versas were bought for these services in 2012-14, with the BYDs arriving in 2016. Completely different situation now!

 

[markymark2000]

Some not very good cuts there DDB. Victoria Bus Station is probably an easy one to cut as long as services can be moved onto the main road. It would be good to see Broadmarsh get some more usage as the current utilisation right now is shocking. A drive on, drive off bus station can safely take 6 buses per hour, per stand (can take more but I am being conservative with my numbers and giving leeway). This means the current capacity for the normal stands is 54 buses per hour and I believe the current operations are 23 buses per hour and so that means 42% utilisation right now.

Bus based Park and Ride, well the Racecourse is just making use of a disused car park when the Racecourse don't need it, normal buses stop on the main road so I can't see why this would need much funding. Queens Drive I can see why that could need funding and from my personal experience it was quiet. Could be better if it was treated more as a public transport interchange and access was made easier for cars to get into the site to park.


As for Linkbus and Medilink, I would have more sympathy for the council if they didn't keep giving money to CT4N, an operator who believes compliance with the law is optional (Bus open data compliance is the law, CT4N is not compliant in any part of open data regulations and is making no attempt to become compliant).

Robin Hood scheme and real time passenger information, I ask why is the workplace levy funding not covering this? The workplace levy is ringfenced for public transport.

 

[Mugby]

Who funds the operation of Broadmarsh Bus Station? I imagine it costs considerably more to operate than Victoria with it's security personnel, cleaners and all the other fol-de-rols which it includes.
Personally, I think Broadmarsh is destined to become another white elephant in the same way as the second Mount Street was, it's a long walk to reach it from the city centre through what is now a very dead area and not at all pleasant if it's raining heavily as in the past few weeks. The location is awkward for some services, Skylink for example has to make a considerable detour to reach it which adds up to ten minutes on the overall journey time. The retail outlets don't seem to be attracting any interest either!
The focal points of Nottingham now are Old Market Square, Victoria and everything inbetween. Broadmarsh; nice bus station, wrong end of town!

 

[Andy Pacer]

Personally I can see it being closed with some buses diverted to Broadmarsh (Red Arrow, Rainbow One and Two's down Maid Marion Way to the statio ) and others using on street stops near Victoria Centre (Three's, Pronto, 141 and Sherwood Arrow) whilst some vague suggestion that the area will be redelveoped in the future will be made to keep everyone happy about having a mothballed tatty bus station.

It does beg the question of resource impact of routes moving to Broadmarsh, I doubt some of them would be able to move to Broadmarsh on their current fairly tight schedules without either reducing frequency or adding resource.

 

[adrianjohnson]

Broadmarsh was developed as part of a regeneration of the whole area, including the Broadmarsh shopping centre. When that closed, there was less of a need for the bus station where it is, though the council wouldn't have known that when they decided to rebuild it.

There are further plans to redevelop the area which has not had any Government funding, and now the city council is bankrupt I wonder whether it will go ahead at all.

 

[edwin_m]

Victoria bus station is arguably an even worse location, feeling very back of beyond at the wrong end of the shopping centre. Broad Marsh is at least near the railway station. But diverting these routes to Broad Marsh would add extra running time and risk of traffic delays, and I'm not sure if there is kerb space to terminate these routes anywhere else, unless there are even more restrictions on other traffic.

 

[ChrisC]

Victoria bus station is arguably an even worse location, feeling very back of beyond at the wrong end of the shopping centre. Broad Marsh is at least near the railway station. But diverting these routes to Broad Marsh would add extra running time and risk of traffic delays, and I'm not sure if there is kerb space to terminate these routes anywhere else, unless there are even more restrictions on other traffic.

I quite regularly use the 141 from the Victoria Centre Bus Station. It’s bad enough waiting there for buses which regularly run very late. Standing at some bus stop on Mansfield Road, with nowhere to sit and with little shelter, for a bus which may be up to 30 minutes late would not be acceptable.

 

[STINT47]

But diverting these routes to Broad Marsh would add extra running time and risk of traffic delays, a

Some routes would but for the services that enter town via Tollhouse Hill I don't think it would make much difference.

When I used to drive on the Rainbow 1 during rush hours and times of disruption it could take 15 minuets or more to get from Toolhouse Hill to Victoria, I doubt going down Maod Marion Way to Broadmarsh would ultimately make much difference. The same would apply for the Red Aroow and Two's.

 

[edwin_m]

Some routes would but for the services that enter town via Tollhouse Hill I don't think it would make much difference.

When I used to drive on the Rainbow 1 during rush hours and times of disruption it could take 15 minuets or more to get from Toolhouse Hill to Victoria, I doubt going down Maod Marion Way to Broadmarsh would ultimately make much difference. The same would apply for the Red Aroow and Two's.

Yes you're probably right for those routes, and the removal of some traffic from round Broad Marsh might help too. I was thinking of the routes that go north, but without checking I guess they are a minority of the services using the Victoria bus station.

 

[STINT47]

Yes you're probably right for those routes, and the removal of some traffic from round Broad Marsh might help too. I was thinking of the routes that go north, but without checking I guess they are a minority of the services using the Victoria bus station.

Routes going north are the Three's, Pronto, 141 and Sherwood Arrow. Combined they make up 12 buses per hour and could probably be accommodated on street. Down Mansfield Road and then back up Huntingdon Strret with a stop at the city end of said roads.

 

[bussnapperwm]

As it's a coach route, is the Red Arrow even allowed to stop on city centre streets apart from Parliament Street? I'm sure that there was a thing ages ago when Club Class ran and it could only stop at Broadmarsh because it was a coach (I had a Club Class coach drop on a regular TB service out of Broadmarsh, and the driver said he wasn't allowed to stop at the rail station (it was on a Rushcliffe Greens) even though it was half empty).

 

[ChrisC]

Routes going north are the Three's, Pronto, 141 and Sherwood Arrow. Combined they make up 12 buses per hour and could probably be accommodated on street. Down Mansfield Road and then back up Huntingdon Strret with a stop at the city end of said roads.

Hopefully that would mean stopping closer to the city centre than just north of Woodborough Road. It’s far enough to have to walk to the bus station at the far end of the Victoria Centre without having to walk even further. Nottingham is a terrible city for having to change buses. If you arrive on a bus that terminates at Broad Marsh or Friar Lane it’s already a very long walk to the Victoria Centre Bus Station. As I said earlier, people waiting for a bus which only departs hourly and is subject to delays at peak times, need somewhere safe and sheltered to wait. Just as an example today the last few 141 buses of the day have all been running at around 20 minutes late and this happens most days. An exposed bus stop on a main road with no facilities is not what you would expect in a city like Nottingham. Anyway, this is all getting a bit speculative. It may never happen.

 

[MCR247]

Victoria bus station is arguably an even worse location, feeling very back of beyond at the wrong end of the shopping centre. Broad Marsh is at least near the railway station. But diverting these routes to Broad Marsh would add extra running time and risk of traffic delays, and I'm not sure if there is kerb space to terminate these routes anywhere else, unless there are even more restrictions on other traffic.

The Victoria Centre bus stop outside the Hilton hotel currently used by the local link buses could be an option. As well as perhaps Burton Street.

As for restricting other traffic, Parliament Street really suffers these days due to the number of Uber and bolt taxis but I’m not sure what can be done about that.

 

[edwin_m]

As for restricting other traffic, Parliament Street really suffers these days due to the number of Uber and bolt taxis but I’m not sure what can be done about that.

Yes that needs sorting, and the zebra crossings probably also need to be upgraded with signals, but that's most unlikely with the council in the state it is.

 

[kevjs]

Robin Hood scheme and real time passenger information, I ask why is the workplace levy funding not covering this? The workplace levy is ringfenced for public transport.

Would be interesting to see how the WPL is spent - AIUI the bulk is to fund the loans taken out to pay for the tram. Should be raised to match the lowest price NCT Annual Bus Pass and the extra used to fund the Medilink and Link Bus Network.

The Victoria Centre bus stop outside the Hilton hotel currently used by the local link buses could be an option. As well as perhaps Burton Street.

As for restricting other traffic, Parliament Street really suffers these days due to the number of Uber and bolt taxis but I’m not sure what can be done about that.

The Green Line buses suffer from being stuck in the traffic on Parliament Street - can taken 5 minutes from DG to Boots at times! Should terminate all the minibus routes in the Broadmarsh (potentially after a run up MMW and round the roundabout) and only send the double deckers round the loop. You'd be able to switch between them at Victoria Embankment if needed. Not much use having the convenience when it impacts so much on reliability - the 11 can spend longer on the loop than the run out to Lady Bay.

Yes that needs sorting, and the zebra crossings probably also need to be upgraded with signals, but that's most unlikely with the council in the state it is.

Links into the above - too much foot and bus traffic down Parliament Street. If only there was a way to access the Victoria Centre without mixing with bus traffic...

 

[Deerfold]

Specifically electric, or zero emission?

Technically zero-emission, though certain types had been ruled out before the bids. My point was it wasn't available for improving other infrastructure or subsidising services.

Hopefully that would mean stopping closer to the city centre than just north of Woodborough Road. It’s far enough to have to walk to the bus station at the far end of the Victoria Centre without having to walk even further. Nottingham is a terrible city for having to change buses.

Presumably that's why every few years there's funding found for a frequent minibus link around the town centre. Unfortunately, they never seem to last long and usually didn't run at the times you might most want to not be doing the walk.

 

[Andyh82]

If Victoria Bus Station was closed, Trent Barton could do a survey for Red Arrow, Rainbow 1 etc passengers asking them what they’d prefer

- pretty much the same routing as now but the main stop being a bus shelter near by in the street

- or a completely different routing, no longer serving Parliament street at Broadmarsh. Better indoor waiting facilities but miles away from the shops the other side of an abandoned building site

 

[ACBest]

As it's a coach route, is the Red Arrow even allowed to stop on city centre streets apart from Parliament Street? I'm sure that there was a thing ages ago when Club Class ran and it could only stop at Broadmarsh because it was a coach (I had a Club Class coach drop on a regular TB service out of Broadmarsh, and the driver said he wasn't allowed to stop at the rail station (it was on a Rushcliffe Greens) even though it was half empty).

That was to do with the coaches used on that route being non-PSVAR, and so non-compliant with the terms of the SQPS (the bus partnership for Nottingham at the time).

 

[ChrisC]

If Victoria Bus Station was closed, Trent Barton could do a survey for Red Arrow, Rainbow 1 etc passengers asking them what they’d prefer

- pretty much the same routing as now but the main stop being a bus shelter near by in the street

- or a completely different routing, no longer serving Parliament street at Broadmarsh. Better indoor waiting facilities but miles away from the shops the other side of an abandoned building site

What about the buses that come into Nottingham from the north down Mansfield Road? Trent Barton Threes and Stagecoach Pronto, 141 and Sherwood Arrow. These could do a loop round by the Royal Centre and Parliament Street like the Trent Barton Calverton does along with a number of NCT routes. It takes quite some time to get around this loop due to heavy traffic, and hourly routes like the 141 and Sherwood Arrow already struggle to depart on time due to late arrivals of the incoming journey and very short turn around times. Both the 141 and Sherwood Arrow regularly arrive late, unload and load passengers, and go straight out again without the driver having had any time for a break. Going around the loop like the Calverton would need new timetables, and certainly in the case of the 141, an extra bus operating on the route if it is to remain hourly.

 

[Deerfold]

What about the buses that come into Nottingham from the north down Mansfield Road? Trent Barton Threes and Stagecoach Pronto, 141 and Sherwood Arrow. These could do a loop round by the Royal Centre and Parliament Street like the Trent Barton Calverton does along with a number of NCT routes. It takes quite some time to get around this loop due to heavy traffic, and hourly routes like the 141 and Sherwood Arrow already struggle to depart on time due to late arrivals of the incoming journey and very short turn around times. Both the 141 and Sherwood Arrow regularly arrive late, unload and load passengers, and go straight out again without the driver having had any time for a break. Going around the loop like the Calverton would need new timetables, and certainly in the case of the 141, an extra bus operating on the route if it is to remain hourly.

And somewhere to stand for a while if the incoming bus isn't late.

 

[zakky1.0]

The Victoria Centre bus stop outside the Hilton hotel currently used by the local link buses could be an option. As well as perhaps Burton Street.

As for restricting other traffic, Parliament Street really suffers these days due to the number of Uber and bolt taxis but I’m not sure what can be done about that.

Friday & Saturday nights are awful for Taxis & ubers, constantly u-turning in areas they shouldn't be or picking up in bus stops, I'm sure if the council stuck some cameras up they'd make enough to unbankrupt them .

 

[Andyh82]

Burton Street could be a decent option

T7 is only served by the Uni4, which already stops around the corner at G1
T8 is already served by Rainbow 1 and TWO

Both those stops could be taken over by Trent Barton and the Stagecoach Pronto

J2 on Milton Street is only served by a few LinkBus services, which could move to J5 which only has Pink 30 now which would free up another stop, assuming those LinkBuses even still exist

Maybe move Red Arrow to Broadmarsh and then accommodate everything else in the area mentioned above, if Victoria Bus Station was to close

 

[bussnapperwm]

That was to do with the coaches used on that route being non-PSVAR, and so non-compliant with the terms of the SQPS (the bus partnership for Nottingham at the time).

Ah, so had Trent used ordinary singles, or even deckers, at the time, then they'd have been OK. Fair enough, thanks for clarifying

 

[zakky1.0]

Maybe move Red Arrow to Broadmarsh and then accommodate everything else in the area mentioned above, if Victoria Bus Station was to close

Moving Red arrow to Broadmarsh is a bad idea entirely. It's too far away from the main city centre to be attractive to new & potential customer. The best bet would be having it serve Friar Lane/Angel row, although coaches may struggle making it around with the tail swing.

If Victoria was to be put up for sale I really wouldn't be shocked to see Intu buy it; it's connected to the shopping centre & would be a good potential way to entice more people into shopping in person again.

 

[Mugby]

Moving Red arrow to Broadmarsh is a bad idea entirely. It's too far away from the main city centre to be attractive to new & potential customer. The best bet would be having it serve Friar Lane/Angel row, although coaches may struggle making it around with the tail swing.

I agree and I think TrentBarton are very well aware of this which is why they left Indigo and I4 at Friar Lane after Broadmarsh opened. Friar Lane is far from ideal, in fact it's horrendous with minimal shelter provision and no facilities of any sort but I'd rather put up with it than have to walk all the way down to Broadmarsh.
When the shopping centre was open, you could pop down Bridlesmith Gate and cut through the centre vis Drury Walk to the bus station, at least you would be protected from the elements for most of the way.