Nuneaton to Liverpool back in 1962

[Michael G]

Dear members,
My name is Michael and I am a French amateur novelist.
For a story I'm writing, I'd like to know if there was a train running from Nuneaton to Liverpool back in 1962 or one from Birmingham to Liverpool ?
And I'd like to know its name and price.
Do you know where I could find those info?
Thanks for your help,
Michael

 

[Springs Branch]

The Timetable World website has a collection of historic timetables of varying types and vintages available online at https://timetableworld.com/timetables.php.

Some old timetables are available for free, access to other requires payment for download. You're in luck that the website offers the 1962 London Midland Region timetable for free:-
https://timetableworld.com/ttw-viewer.php?token=61ac8ba5-0d78-48c9-83d2-1c716097f90d (not sure if this link works on another computer)

Table 50 is the one you need.

Timetables for long distance services from that era can be confusing regarding what were actually through trains and which destinations required a connecting train. Interpreting them is a bit of an art - the note 'TC' in the train's column is the key to start and/or end points.

A quick look at the relevant table seems to show only one direct train to Liverpool Lime Street which stopped at Nuneaton Trent Valley - the 08:30 departure from London Euston, calling at Nuneaton Trent Valley at 10:27 and arriving in Liverpool Lime Street at 12:38.

Unfortunately, much of the route between London and Liverpool was under major re-construction and electrification during 1962. The number of train services was restricted; some were diverted to other routes (e.g. you will find few London - Manchester expresses in this particular timetable - they had been diverted to an alternative route until the electrification project was completed). After 1968, there may have been more than one train per day between Nuneaton and Liverpool, but that probably does not help with your novel!

From Birmingham to Liverpool was a better situation. In 1962 there were through trains at:

• 08:15 Birmingham New St to Liverpool Lime Street (arr. 10:32)
• 09:20 Birmingham New St to Liverpool Lime Street (arr. 11:56)
• 13:50 Birmingham New St to Liverpool Lime Street (arr. 16:30)
• 15:35 Birmingham New St to Liverpool Lime Street (arr. 18:01)

Although these were all express trains, they did not appear to carry names; I don't know the cost of a ticket.

 

[Taunton]

By coincidence, this was when the electrification, which progressed north to south, had got as far as Nuneaton, otherwise a secondary point on the line. All the main line trains stopped there to change locos, for your northbound journey exchanging the diesel from London for electric on to Liverpool. All trains did this, even the London to Glasgow ones did so twice, diesel to electric at Nuneaton, and back to another diesel at Crewe. Some of these stops appeared in the timetable, and some not, although all stopped at the platform for the 10 minutes or so required. It was Nuneaton's finest hour (or couple of years).

 

[Michael G]

The Timetable World website has a collection of historic timetables of varying types and vintages available online at https://timetableworld.com/timetables.php.

Some old timetables are available for free, access to other requires payment for download. You're in luck that the website offers the 1962 London Midland Region timetable for free:-
https://timetableworld.com/ttw-viewer.php?token=61ac8ba5-0d78-48c9-83d2-1c716097f90d (not sure if this link works on another computer)

Table 50 is the one you need.

Timetables for long distance services from that era can be confusing regarding what were actually through trains and which destinations required a connecting train. Interpreting them is a bit of an art - the note 'TC' in the train's column is the key to start and/or end points.

A quick look at the relevant table seems to show only one direct train to Liverpool Lime Street which stopped at Nuneaton Trent Valley - the 08:30 departure from London Euston, calling at Nuneaton Trent Valley at 10:27 and arriving in Liverpool Lime Street at 12:38.

Unfortunately, much of the route between London and Liverpool was under major re-construction and electrification during 1962. The number of train services was restricted; some were diverted to other routes (e.g. you will find few London - Manchester expresses in this particular timetable - they had been diverted to an alternative route until the electrification project was completed). After 1968, there may have been more than one train per day between Nuneaton and Liverpool, but that probably does not help with your novel!

From Birmingham to Liverpool was a better situation. In 1962 there were through trains at:

• 08:15 Birmingham New St to Liverpool Lime Street (arr. 10:32)
• 09:20 Birmingham New St to Liverpool Lime Street (arr. 11:56)
• 13:50 Birmingham New St to Liverpool Lime Street (arr. 16:30)
• 15:35 Birmingham New St to Liverpool Lime Street (arr. 18:01)

Although these were all express trains, they did not appear to carry names; I don't know the cost of a ticket.

Thank you very much for your comprehensive response. It is priceless. I'm sure I'll find the info about the cost of the ticket somewhere.

By coincidence, this was when the electrification, which progressed north to south, had got as far as Nuneaton, otherwise a secondary point on the line. All the main line trains stopped there to change locos, for your northbound journey exchanging the diesel from London for electric on to Liverpool. All trains did this, even the London to Glasgow ones did so twice, diesel to electric at Nuneaton, and back to another diesel at Crewe. Some of these stops appeared in the timetable, and some not, although all stopped at the platform for the 10 minutes or so required. It was Nuneaton's finest hour (or couple of years).

Thank you for the additional information. I could do something about it in my novel.

 

[70014IronDuke]

By coincidence, this was when the electrification, which progressed north to south, had got as far as Nuneaton, otherwise a secondary point on the line. All the main line trains stopped there to change locos, for your northbound journey exchanging the diesel from London for electric on to Liverpool. All trains did this, even the London to Glasgow ones did so twice, diesel to electric at Nuneaton, and back to another diesel at Crewe. Some of these stops appeared in the timetable, and some not, although all stopped at the platform for the 10 minutes or so required. It was Nuneaton's finest hour (or couple of years).

I don't think it was 1962 when they turned on the juice to Nuneaton - I remember it as 1964. Myself and another spotter went to Nuneaton in the September just for the electrics - and yes, everything stopped there at that point.

 

[jfollows]

I don't think it was 1962 when they turned on the juice to Nuneaton - I remember it as 1964. Myself and another spotter went to Nuneaton in the September just for the electrics - and yes, everything stopped there at that point.

2 March 1964 I think also.

Electrification dates

A list of all known UK railway electrification dates

www.railwaycodes.org.uk

 

[30907]

I think you will find selected ticket prices on a page at the front of the timetable. Even if the ones you want aren't shown, prices were strictly "per mile" and returns were twice the single.
ISTR 3d per mile, but that may have been a couple of years later.

 

[Gloster]

Euston to Nuneaton was 24/6 and Euston to Liverpool Lime Street was 48/6, which gives you 24/-. As Euston-Nuneaton was 97 miles and Euston-Liverpool was 193 1/2, this sounds right. Birmingham New Street-Liverpool was 88 1/4 miles, but you will have to your own calculations for that.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I don't think it was 1962 when they turned on the juice to Nuneaton - I remember it as 1964. Myself and another spotter went to Nuneaton in the September just for the electrics - and yes, everything stopped there at that point.

My memory of that time, for Down trains at least, was that they changed engines on the Slow lines south of the station - and didn't call at Nuneaton station.
1962 would have been a period of quite limited Liverpool/North Wales/Glasgow trains negotiating the electrification works and particularly the resignalling from semaphore to 4-aspect colour lights.
From day to day you had no real idea when your train would reach its destination (most London-Manchester and London-Birmingham services ran via alternative routes).
Some steam would still have been around, though most express trains would have been handled by English Electric Type 4s (class 40 today).

 

[Harvester]

The only part of the route energised by 1962 was the Crewe-Liverpool section. Coming south, electrification reached Stafford in January 1963, and Nuneaton in March 1964 as mentioned upthread. In 1962 a considerable amount and variety of steam power was still in use, not only on freight but on passenger traffic too. Early in the year six Princess Royal Pacifics were returned to traffic from store because of diesel unreliability on the WCML! On summer Saturdays in 1962 most of the extras and relief passenger trains on the line would have been steam hauled.

 

[30907]

Euston to Nuneaton was 24/6 and Euston to Liverpool Lime Street was 48/6, which gives you 24/-. As Euston-Nuneaton was 97 miles and Euston-Liverpool was 193 1/2, this sounds right. Birmingham New Street-Liverpool was 88 1/4 miles, but you will have to your own calculations for that.

That confirms 3d/mile, so 22/- (£1.2s).

 

[70014IronDuke]

My memory of that time, for Down trains at least, was that they changed engines on the Slow lines south of the station - and didn't call at Nuneaton station.

Not questioning your memory from when you were there, but in September 64 when I was there, all trains were stopping in Nuneaton platforms. We were on the down main, as it happens (platform 1, I assume) and there was a regular procession of expresses stopping there to change locos.

I have a vague memory of some passengers sitting in their Mk 1s wondering what was going on - but this may be me adding that afterwards.

1962 would have been a period of quite limited Liverpool/North Wales/Glasgow trains negotiating the electrification works and particularly the resignalling from semaphore to 4-aspect colour lights.
From day to day you had no real idea when your train would reach its destination (most London-Manchester

St Pancras - Derby - Peak Forest

and London-Birmingham services ran via alternative routes).

Paddington - Snow Hill via Bicester (I'm sure you know these facts, just adding for info for others who don't).

Some steam would still have been around, though most express trains would have been handled by English Electric Type 4s (class 40 today).

By 1964, this is definitely correct. I have no recollection of any other traction on Class 1 trains that day at Nuneaton, and certainly not steam. I'm sure I would have remembered it. Of course, we were only there perhaps 4-5 hours max, but south of Nuneaton, all class 1 trains were EE 4s.

The only part of the route energised by 1962 was the Crewe-Liverpool section. Coming south, electrification reached Stafford in January 1963, and Nuneaton in March 1964 as mentioned upthread. In 1962 a considerable amount and variety of steam power was still in use, not only on freight but on passenger traffic too. Early in the year six Princess Royal Pacifics were returned to traffic from store because of diesel unreliability on the WCML! On summer Saturdays in 1962 most of the extras and relief passenger trains on the line would have been steam hauled.

Very true for 1962, but as mentioned above, by 1964 things were rather different.

Dear members,
My name is Michael and I am a French amateur novelist.
For a story I'm writing, I'd like to know if there was a train running from Nuneaton to Liverpool back in 1962 or one from Birmingham to Liverpool ?
And I'd like to know its name and price.
Do you know where I could find those info?
Thanks for your help,
Michael

Unfortunately, all this talk of changing traction at Nuneaton does not help you with your core question. It was 1961 summer when I did get to Nuneaton - we left Rugby at (I suppose) 11.30 or so for the short run north behind Jubilee class 45553 Canada. (It was the only time I was behind steam when it picked up water on the run at Nuneaton troughs.) Where this train went afterwards I don't know, (I was only 10 at the time).

Perhaps you know (or not) but after the full electrification of the WCML/Trent Valley line in April 66, Nuneaton indeed became a regular stop for Liverpool expresses, although I think they were only every two hours for most of the day back then. They probably went hourly by c 1970.

Because of this, I had toyed with the idea of asking the forum IF that had been the case prior to electrification, ie in steam days, was Nuneaton a regular stop for Liverpool expresses. From what others have written in this thread, it would seem not.

If you don't get any concrete answers, you could try asking on the LMS e-group
"[email protected]" <[email protected]>,

 

[Taunton]

Not questioning your memory from when you were there, but in September 64 when I was there, all trains were stopping in Nuneaton platforms. We were on the down main, as it happens (platform 1, I assume) and there was a regular procession of expresses stopping there to change locos.

We, too, took the Liverpool to London trains a couple of times then, and my youthful (but interested) recollection is of stopping in the platform.

Perhaps you know (or not) but after the full electrification of the WCML/Trent Valley line in April 66, Nuneaton indeed became a regular stop for Liverpool expresses, although I think they were only every two hours for most of the day back then.

I believe in the 1966 electric timetable the Liverpools and Manchesters leaving Euston at 00 were nonstop there, but the "North-West" (Blackpool/Barrow etc) services, which followed them from Euston at 05 in certain hours did the stops at Rugby, Nuneaton, Stafford etc.

For the Class 40 diesels, the LMR took over 100 of them between 1959 and early 1962. They took over pretty much all the mainstream turns on the WCML. In the way of the times, they were classed Type 4, the most powerful group, although nowadays are seen as pretty underpowered. However, we discussed elsewhere here how train timer O S Nock found a Red Duchess in Spring 1964 still well prepared for the Euston to Perth day express north of Crewe, which ended up being grabbed for the Royal Scot to Glasgow, so the transition was not complete by then.

 

[Gloster]

So, for the OP. The train from Nuneaton would be diesel or steam to Crewe, possibly more likely the former, and then electric to Liverpool. What about the alternative train from Birmingham? That would presumably have been electric from Crewe, but what would it have been from Birmingham to Crewe?

 

[70014IronDuke]

So, for the OP. The train from Nuneaton would be diesel or steam to Crewe, possibly more likely the former, and then electric to Liverpool. What about the alternative train from Birmingham? That would presumably have been electric from Crewe, but what would it have been from Birmingham to Crewe?

I'm not sure whether the OP is particularly interested in the traction, though he might be after reading all our input

I'd say in 1962 chances are it would be about 50-50 steam or diesel if catching a train from Nuneaton to Liverpool, although, from memory, Liverpool trains did seem to be on the heavy side in those years (14 - 15 coaches), so maybe control would prefer to put an EE4 on them where possible.

I believe in the 1966 electric timetable the Liverpools and Manchesters leaving Euston at 00 were nonstop there, but the "North-West" (Blackpool/Barrow etc) services, which followed them from Euston at 05 in certain hours did the stops at Rugby, Nuneaton, Stafford etc.

As I remember it, from April 1966 the "North-West" services ran at alternate hours to the Glasgows, and even stopped at Bletchley - but I can't remember them stopping at Nuneaton. Maybe some did. Would need to see the timetable.

For the Class 40 diesels, the LMR took over 100 of them between 1959 and early 1962. They took over pretty much all the mainstream turns on the WCML. In the way of the times, they were classed Type 4, the most powerful group, although nowadays are seen as pretty underpowered. However, we discussed elsewhere here how train timer O S Nock found a Red Duchess in Spring 1964 still well prepared for the Euston to Perth day express north of Crewe, which ended up being grabbed for the Royal Scot to Glasgow, so the transition was not complete by then.

Yes, but that was north of Crewe. No question that steam was still being used on some turns north of Crewe in 1964 and even into 1965, certainly on summer Saturdays. But south of Nuneaton, once it was electrified, steam passenger turns on class 1 trains were rare - I'd say limited to failures and maybe the odd relief. I did get City of Chester on a Rugby (I think) - Euston stopper in the spring of 64, but that was a Class 2 train.

Anyway, this is all academic to the OP, who wants to know about trains in 1962!

 

[Dr Hoo]

A bit more 'colour' for the original enquirer.

There were two stations in Nuneaton in 1962. By far the most obvious was Nuneaton Trent Valley, which would be the normal starting point for a journey to Liverpool. The other station was Nuneaton Abbey Street, a considerable distance away in a quarrying/mining area to the north of the town. Interchange between the two would be very awkward but no doubt local taxi drivers did all right. But plenty of scope in a fictional novel for a bit of confusion over 'which station'.

Another quirk was that Nuneaton Trent Valley had a long subway as well as a footbridge. The subway also provided an additional station entrance on the north-east side of the main line. Quite a few locals would buy a platform ticket simply to take a short cut, avoiding a longer walk round over the road bridge to the south of the station. So, again scope for some drama about 'waiting at the wrong end' or something.

 

[Springs Branch]

. . . . After 1968, there may have been more than one train per day between Nuneaton and Liverpool, but that probably does not help with your novel!

When replying to the OP's question, I naively suggested that when the modernisation project was completed and the southern WCML went 'all electric', there may have been more choice of trains between Nuneaton & Liverpool.

Out of interest I had a quick flick through timetables for the 1968 to 1973 period - and it seems year-to-year there was still either just one direct train per day from Nuneaton to Liverpool, or none at all in some years.

In fact, you could say the OP was lucky to be choosing 1962 for his novel, since there was at least one train running that year suiting the storyline.

As a general observation, I was surprised to be reminded how sparse the number of Inter-City expresses was at that time on the newly modernised and electrified WCML route. Outside peak hours, electrically-hauled Euston to Manchester and Euston to Liverpool trains each ran every two hours direct via the Trent Valley line (alternating between Manchester or Liverpool each hour - on the other hour a train went via Coventry, New St and Wolverhampton).

IIRC hourly direct expresses on both London/Liverpool and London/Manchester routes only began after the 1974 'Electric Scot' electrification through to Glasgow. Obviously the infrastructure needed to be modernised and 25kV was the future, but it must have been horribly expensive expenditure on a passenger-mile basis back then.

 

[randyrippley]

Euston to Nuneaton was 24/6 and Euston to Liverpool Lime Street was 48/6, which gives you 24/-. As Euston-Nuneaton was 97 miles and Euston-Liverpool was 193 1/2, this sounds right. Birmingham New Street-Liverpool was 88 1/4 miles, but you will have to your own calculations for that.

I hope you're not expecting our original poster to understand the intricacies of, and calculate in, £sd

 

[Michael G]

Thank you all for taking the time to answer me so precisely. Can I ask you more then? I'm actually interested in the Nuneaton-Birmingham route at that time. For example, do you know which station(s) the trains departed from and how often?

 

[SteveM70]

If you look for table 208 in the timetable link in post #2 you’ll see details for Birmingham to Nuneaton. These went to Nuneaton Abbey Street, then continued to Leicester, crossing the main London to the north line just north of Nuneaton Trent Valley station

Nuneaton Abbey Street railway station - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Michael G]

If you look for table 208 in the timetable link in post #2 you’ll see details for Birmingham to Nuneaton. These went to Nuneaton Abbey Street, then continued to Leicester, crossing the main London to the north line just north of Nuneaton Trent Valley station

Nuneaton Abbey Street railway station - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Thanks a lot. I'll check asap.
... Just did. Everything I needed to know. Thanks again!

 

[SteveM70]

Thanks a lot. I'll check asap.
... Just did. Everything I needed to know. Thanks again!

If you want to see maps of how Nuneaton looked at around the time you're writing about, and then compare to the current day, you can look at the National Library of Scotland website maps.nls.uk and select "side by side viewer". On one half choose category = Great Britain and in the "map series" bit choose something from that time eg 1:25000 1945-1966, and on the other leave as the default or choose a road map. So you get something like the attached, from that you can see Abbey Street in the 1960s was a much smaller station than Trent Valley (the modern day Nuneaton station).

 

[Michael G]

I

If you want to see maps of how Nuneaton looked at around the time you're writing about, and then compare to the current day, you can look at the National Library of Scotland website maps.nls.uk and select "side by side viewer". On one half choose category = Great Britain and in the "map series" bit choose something from that time eg 1:25000 1945-1966, and on the other leave as the default or choose a road map. So you get something like the attached, from that you can see Abbey Street in the 1960s was a much smaller station than Trent Valley (the modern day Nuneaton station).

I'm doing it right now. Thanks for the tip. Very useful.


About Birmingham New Street station. I read that the station was rebuilt in the mid-sixties, so do you know how and where passengers got off at that time?

 

[jfollows]

About Birmingham New Street station. I read that the station was rebuilt in the mid-sixties, so do you know how and where passengers got off at that time?

Birmingham New Street - the station wasn't closed. The station had 8 through platforms and 6 bay platforms and was rebuilt a pair of platforms at a time. Before the main work started the four bay platforms at the north of the station were joined to form an additional pair of through platforms as well.
Too much information, I'm sure.
Diagram from "Britain's New Railway", OS Nock, Ian Allan 1966

 

[Dr Hoo]

Prior to re-building New Street was most definitely in 'two halves'. The low numbered platforms were the 'North Western' side; there was a central roadway called Queens Drive and then the high numbered platforms were the 'Midland' side. Trains from Nuneaton would generally use the Midland side. The could only run into Platform 10 or part of Platform 9 as can be deduced from the diagram.

Re-building had not started in 1962. The Midland side had retained its two-span overall roof whereas the North Western side had been badly damaged by bombing and had much simpler canopies dating from 1947.

Platform 10 was at the edge of the station and allowed direct exit to Station Street. Platform 9 was part of an island and could only be accessed via the single footbridge that ran all the way across the station.

 

[Michael G]

Birmingham New Street - the station wasn't closed. The station had 8 through platforms and 6 bay platforms and was rebuilt a pair of platforms at a time. Before the main work started the four bay platforms at the north of the station were joined to form an additional pair of through platforms as well.
Too much information, I'm sure.
Diagram from "Britain's New Railway", OS Nock, Ian Allan 1966

No, not too much information. Very instructive in fact. Thank you very much for the explanations and the diagram.

Prior to re-building New Street was most definitely in 'two halves'. The low numbered platforms were the 'North Western' side; there was a central roadway called Queens Drive and then the high numbered platforms were the 'Midland' side. Trains from Nuneaton would generally use the Midland side. The could only run into Platform 10 or part of Platform 9 as can be deduced from the diagram.

Re-building had not started in 1962. The Midland side had retained its two-span overall roof whereas the North Western side had been badly damaged by bombing and had much simpler canopies dating from 1947.

Platform 10 was at the edge of the station and allowed direct exit to Station Street. Platform 9 was part of an island and could only be accessed via the single footbridge that ran all the way across the station.

Thank you for this additional information. I greatly appreciate it.