NYMR: is diesel the way forward?

[D Williams]

Diesel traction has to be the way forward!

 

[D6130]

Diesel traction has to be the way forward!

....or battery perhaps? Much more environmentally-friendly!

 

[D Williams]

....or battery perhaps? Much more environmentally-friendly!

Possibly but rather expensive in the first place. Bio diesel fuel would tick the environmental box. I visited Llangollen at the weekend and was surprised to see how many of their regular services are diesel-hauled or use DMUs. If you travel in the last coach and the selling point is the lineside scenery does it matter if the loco is diesel not steam?

 

[D Mylchreest]

Diesel traction has to be the way forward!

That would completely undercut the reason for the railway's existance. Most of any heritage line's customers much prefer steam. The solution is to convert the steam engines to run on oil of some form. Hydrogen would be even better.
A good many years a ago when I used to go to heritage lines religiously (and I do mean that word) I was alongside the K&WVR at the tunnel when a train started a fire. I walked to Haworth and reported it. The booking office clerk dismissed the incident as being unimportant even after I pointed out the dangers of lineside fire. Totally weird

 

[50002Superb]

That would completely undercut the reason for the railway's existance. Most of any heritage line's customers much prefer steam. The solution is to convert the steam engines to run on oil of some form. Hydrogen would be even better.
A good many years an ago when I used to go to heritage lines religiously (and I do mean that word) I was alongside the K&WVR at the tunnel when a train started a fire. I walked to Haworth and reported it. The booking office clerk dismissed the incident as being unimportant even after I pointed out the dangers of lineside fire. Totally weird

Is there any evidence to back up the preference of steam? I mean actual feedback from visitors?

I guess there are at least five types of customer, and probably more:

Steam Enthusiasts
Diesel Enthusiasts
Both
Tourists who have a preference
Tourists who don’t

I fall generally in category two but whenever I’m on holiday in the UK and we visit a pres line I fall into category five.

 

[generalnerd]

Possibly but rather expensive in the first place. Bio diesel fuel would tick the environmental box. I visited Llangollen at the weekend and was surprised to see how many of their regular services are diesel-hauled or use DMUs. If you travel in the last coach and the selling point is the lineside scenery does it matter if the loco is diesel not steam?

I was also at the Llangollen (by accident, funnily enough) and on the blue days 2/5 services are diesel.

I think a few heritage lines are putting more diesel services on (as I think they should on the nymr) because not only are they cheaper and easier to operate, but they also have lots of heritage themselves (older generations remember them fondly from visits to the seaside and the do look old to younger generations)

I’m surprised the nymr hasn’t started operating more/any dmu/dvt services.

 

[kje7812]

Is there any evidence to back up the preference of steam? I mean actual feedback from visitors?

I guess there are at least five types of customer, and probably more:

Steam Enthusiasts
Diesel Enthusiasts
Both
Tourists who have a preference
Tourists who don’t

I fall generally in category two but whenever I’m on holiday in the UK and we visit a pres line I fall into category five.

Most definitely do prefer steam and expect steam, partly because most railways market themselves as using steam. Some people do turn away at the booking office if it's diesel only. I have seen and heard them to do such myself.

I’m surprised the nymr hasn’t started operating more/any dmu/dvt services.

The NYMR' DMU is out of use. Apparently there is a plan for its repair but with money tight at the moment one wonders when/if it will be done.

 

[Peter Wilde]

Plenty of heritage railways have tried to change to a greater % of diesel as it is cheaper to run, less work, and has far fewer unsocial hours. So an easier time for staff and train crews.

But like charter operators in the nostalgia / fine dining market, the larger preserved railways have found that most of the general public prefers steam - it is simply more nostalgic; and think of Harry Potter, Thomas and the Polar Express. The Jacobite operator wants to run steam, it is more of a commercial draw.

There are still many more steam enthusiasts than diesel enthusiasts, too.

Will all that change in the longer term? That is unknown, but two things in favour of continuing with (mainly) steam are:

1. Most of the public probably will never understand the appeal of heritage diesel - the trains just seem too similar to modern ones: and

2. Preserved diesels will be very expensive to maintain once the supply of cheap secondhand spares (and retro-convertible bits and pieces from more recent designs) dries up, as it surely must. Back in the day the manufacturing cost of a diesel was 3X that of a comparable steam loco. Manufacturing processes of most parts are simpler too, which is why new-build steam projects have been able to take place in the UK despite there being no more heavily-equipped railway factories.

 

[AlastairFraser]

That would completely undercut the reason for the railway's existance. Most of any heritage line's customers much prefer steam. The solution is to convert the steam engines to run on oil of some form. Hydrogen would be even better.
A good many years a ago when I used to go to heritage lines religiously (and I do mean that word) I was alongside the K&WVR at the tunnel when a train started a fire. I walked to Haworth and reported it. The booking office clerk dismissed the incident as being unimportant even after I pointed out the dangers of lineside fire. Totally weird

Or you could go for some form of bio-coal alternatives, as Manchester Met Uni has tested a few years ago. Coal alternative trial

 

[A S Leib]

Which preserved railways currently exclusively or near-exclusively have diesel trains, and is there a relation to how interesting the scenery (can reasonably be described as) is?

I generally prefer preserved railways with museums; having steam trains as static exhibits might not be as exciting as having them running, but it's at least an alternative.

 

[SteveM70]

Which preserved railways currently exclusively or near-exclusively have diesel trains, and is there a relation to how interesting the scenery (can reasonably be described as) is?

I generally prefer preserved railways with museums; having steam trains as static exhibits might not be as exciting as having them running, but it's at least an alternative.

The Wensleydale is exclusively diesel (Pacers, a 33, a 37) apart from when they’re doing polar express

 

[50002Superb]

Most definitely do prefer steam and expect steam, partly because most railways market themselves as using steam. Some people do turn away at the booking office if it's diesel only. I have seen and heard them to do such myself.


The NYMR' DMU is out of use. Apparently there is a plan for its repair but with money tight at the moment one wonders when/if it will be done.

This is all personal experience and perception though, I’m talking about whether there has actually been any cold hard research done to back it up.

 

[Meole]

The diesel powered NER Autocar seems to be a popular heritage transport.

 

[eldomtom2]

Old DMUs where you can see out the front are popular with the general public. Diesel locomotives aren't.

 

[50002Superb]

Plenty of heritage railways have tried to change to a greater % of diesel as it is cheaper to run, less work, and has far fewer unsocial hours. So an easier time for staff and train crews.

But like charter operators in the nostalgia / fine dining market, the larger preserved railways have found that most of the general public prefers steam - it is simply more nostalgic; and think of Harry Potter, Thomas and the Polar Express. The Jacobite operator wants to run steam, it is more of a commercial draw.

There are still many more steam enthusiasts than diesel enthusiasts, too.

Will all that change in the longer term? That is unknown, but two things in favour of continuing with (mainly) steam are:

1. Most of the public probably will never understand the appeal of heritage diesel - the trains just seem too similar to modern ones: and

2. Preserved diesels will be very expensive to maintain once the supply of cheap secondhand spares (and retro-convertible bits and pieces from more recent designs) dries up, as it surely must. Back in the day the manufacturing cost of a diesel was 3X that of a comparable steam loco. Manufacturing processes of most parts are simpler too, which is why new-build steam projects have been able to take place in the UK despite there being no more heavily-equipped railway factories.

How do they know that the general market prefers steam? What is the general market?

I remember being on the ELR once and there were four American tourists on the table adjacent to us, talking loudly about how much fun the train “up front” was, the sounds and smells.

Funny thing is that it was a Crompton.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Are a few steam locomotives plodding through rural England really going to be the "tipping point" for the "climate catastrophe" we keep being warned is right around the corner?

I'm all for improving the environment as best we can, but making life difficult for tiny niche operations like this isn't going to get people on board... Especially while Wallace Miliband keeps racking up AirMiles like they're going out of fashion.

 

[Trainlog]

Since there was a last thread like this discussing the future of steam, I went to the RHDR end of season steam gala back in October and got to see them trial out biocoal on their locos on the 26-mile round express run. I honestly thought it held out rather well as a fuel source, and wouldn't have any problems with it being a potential solution to the future of steam if coal is prohibited in the future. (yes I'm fully aware the RHDR is a 15inch gauge railway, and there is certainly some work to do for larger standard gauge pacifics).

As for the NYMR experiment with oil firing, well why not? The WD 2-10-0s and the USA S160 locos did have oil-fired variants in their operational careers,and I always wondered what enthusiasts' reaction would be to this recent implementation on these locos had oil-fired locos been around on standard-gauge heritage railways earlier, such as the 1980s. Would there be this much of a fuss today if for example, Didcot ran an oil fired 28xx or hall class back then?

I think for me diesel has some appeal, I certainly prefer watching heritage diesel on the mainline rather than beating out a classic steam loco on a heritage railway. Despite there being some charismatic diesels - Deltics, Swindon hydraulics, early shunters etc it doesn't to me beat the visual experience of watching a steam loco in motion and hearing it running. Even stationary, the steam loco in steam is fascinating, watching the loco respond to the fireman shovelling coal in the firebox, and hearing features such as the Westinghouse pump in action on some steam locos.

Diesel stationary to me is basically the engine ticking over and for most of the public, it's probably no different to them from going to your local train or bus station and seeing diesel trains/buses in action there. That's why I prefer watching heritage diesels on the mainline, you certainly get to hear more from running at speed or up gradients than ticking over at a consistent pace at a heritage station for half an hour.

Over time, heritage Diesel will probably be appreciated more on heritage railways and mainline railtours, especially if more electric and battery trains become the norm across the country. In the meantime, the rest of 2025 looks to be a good year for diesel railtours, especially with tours coming up like the Branch line society one on the 3rd with the 08 shunter and the Master Cutler with the Peak later next month.

 

[HSTEd]

Are a few steam locomotives plodding through rural England really going to be the "tipping point" for the "climate catastrophe" we keep being warned is right around the corner?

I'm all for improving the environment as best we can, but making life difficult for tiny niche operations like this isn't going to get people on board...

WHilst a direct ban on these activities in isolation might not make any difference, the reality is that there will not be a coal supply chain for steam locomotives to tap off in the long term.

The fully burdened cost of coal supplied from a hobby mining operation in the Forest of Dean or somewhere will be far more than a heritage railway will be able to afford to pay.

The only plausible alternatives for fuelling a steam locomotive, even if ignoring the pollution aspects, will be the same expensive biomass briquettes that are sold to people with wood burners or oil firing. Oil is much more likely to survive into the long term as a fuel that is actually available.

Coal will simply be too expensive.

 

[birchesgreen]

Money is turning an old Class 08 into a "choo choo" with a nice Thomas face on the front and some strategically added new panels to make it look vaguely like a steam train. Could fit a nice sound system to get the "right sound" as well.

 

[AlastairFraser]

The fully burdened cost of coal supplied from a hobby mining operation in the Forest of Dean or somewhere will be far more than a heritage railway will be able to afford to pay.

I reckon the majority of steam engine operators will go for biocoal, but couldn't a large more commercial steam railway purchase a large stake in a FoD freemining joint enterprise to subsidise costs?

 

[HSTEd]

I reckon the majority of steam engine operators will go for biocoal, but couldn't a large more commercial steam railway purchase a large stake in a FoD freemining joint enterprise to subsidise costs?

The freeminers are slowly dwindling to nothing though, because the lack of a maternity unit within the boundaries required means that very few eligible young miners are available.

I don't think such operations will last in the long term.

 

[AlastairFraser]

The freeminers are slowly dwindling to nothing though, because the lack of a maternity unit within the boundaries required means that very few eligible young miners are available.

I don't think such operations will last in the long term.

I wonder if we will see a change in the laws underlying the mining rights to "parents ordinarily resident in the FoD at the time of birth" instead.

 

[David Burrows]

Surely, to keep everyone happy(?), electrify NYMR (or other railway) with overhead wires, put a pantograph on top of a steam engine, a huge emersion heater in what used to be the firebox to boil water and away you go - the anti nasty- coal burners will be happy, the anti oil-burning tribe will be happy, the 'electrify everything, carbon neutral at all costs' brigade will be happy, the freaky-train enthusiasts will travel from around the world to ride behind it - everybodies happy - until the gigantic new wind-farms necessary on the Yorkshire moors or in the sea have a day off because the wind isn't blowing (or blows too much) and then the trains will just have to stop running until it blows suitably again. Drivers and those who were called firemen will no longer get dirty. Single-manning will be OK (unless the unions manage to stick their oars in, in which case a highly paid new grade of driver/switch operator will have be created, can't have unpaid volunteers being in charge of a new invention with a switch). Problem sorted?

 

[amahy]

Most definitely do prefer steam and expect steam, partly because most railways market themselves as using steam. Some people do turn away at the booking office if it's diesel only. I have seen and heard them to do such myself.

In my experience, heritage railways generally advertise running diesel as a negative thing, so the public interpret running diesel as a negative thing. Whenever heritage railways are running diesel in place of steam, they always seem to apologise that diesel is running. One example was when the Severn Valley Railway started running more diesel around 5 years ago (previously, the railway had been pretty much steam exclusive outside special events). All the public leaflets were apologising about the shift towards diesel traction, due to the rising costs of coal. Surely if heritage railways embraced diesel traction, instead of being apologetic over it, visitors might become less steam biased too?

Another recent example of railway-enforced diesel negativity was on a recent visit to the East Lancashire Railway. In the coach I was travelling in, there were endless leaflets regarding fundraising for 46428, detailing it as "one of only seven of its kind". Well, both D8233 and D5705 are under restoration at the railway as sole survivors, and there is no big publicity or fundraising push for these two locos, which are arguably much more unique and important than 46428, to the point where neither of the sole surviving diesels and even on ELR's main website! D5705 should be a star attraction at ELR, being the only Co-Bo left in the UK.

 

[JGurney]

How do they know that the general market prefers steam? What is the general market?

Has there been any formal market research on this? Does anyone know?

Might the appeal of steam change over time? I wonder how much of it's appeal is due to nostalgia among those who actually saw it in everyday operation and like seeing trains as they remember them when young. For those too young for that, the appeal might be more historic than nostalgic, with diesels and the coaching stock of 50 or 60 years ago having the nostalgia factor.

For me, steam is interesting, but not the deal breaker as far as going on heritage railways goes. Last time I went on one, the NYMR in Feb, the service was advertised as steam but turned out to be diesel hauled, and it made no great difference to me. A loco-hauled train out of Whitby, the surroundings, and the older carriages with woodwork and opening windows as opposed to the usual plastic-looking and hermetically sealed DMU were all appealing. Similarly I have enjoyed diesel-hauled trips on, among others, the Cholsey and Wallingford, the Swanage and the West Somerset. Where narrow gauge is concerned, the haulage being steam or diesel make no real difference to me.

Reflecting, I think that although I never saw steam in everyday action, I was influenced by the nostalgia for it I was taught at second hand through being among older people when they discussed trains, by being encouraged to read Rev. Awdry and being taken to the NRM (then in Clapham). By the age of around 9 or 10 I think I had picked up the idea that there was something special about steam, although I had only once seen a steam loco in action, on a visit to the Bluebell. That later, as I formed my own opinions rather then the ones handed down to me, developed into a broader interest in several forms of rail different from the Southern suburban electrics and London Underground I was used to seeing every day, perhaps setting the base for a general liking for loco-haulage and older carriage stock, and narrow gauge regardless of motive power.

 

[kje7812]

In my experience, heritage railways generally advertise running diesel as a negative thing, so the public interpret running diesel as a negative thing. Whenever heritage railways are running diesel in place of steam, they always seem to apologise that diesel is running. One example was when the Severn Valley Railway started running more diesel around 5 years ago (previously, the railway had been pretty much steam exclusive outside special events). All the public leaflets were apologising about the shift towards diesel traction, due to the rising costs of coal. Surely if heritage railways embraced diesel traction, instead of being apologetic over it, visitors might become less steam biased too?

For reference I volunteer at the SVR. I've tried spin to diesel traction as part of the heritage experience, it rarely goes down well with 'normals'. I remembered one TTI turn behind a 50, and one passenger (in his 30s) said if he wanted to see a diesel he would have just gone to New Street.
A regular occurrence is helping passengers work out if they can fit in a ride behind steam when there's a mix of traction.
Diesel is probably more tolerated by the general public now compared to 15 years ago, but I emphasis the word 'tolerated'. They put up with some diesel as long as some steam is available.

 

[JGurney]

one passenger (in his 30s) said if he wanted to see a diesel he would have just gone to New Street.

Would he have been likely to have seen much diesel loco haulage there if he did? Moor Street, now ......

 

[kje7812]

Would he have been likely to have seen much diesel loco haulage there if he did? Moor Street, now ......

No, but he didn't really seem care when I pointed out that it had been about 20 years since the 50s had been withdrawn.

 

[Falcon1200]

Anecdotal of course, but from speaking to family and friends, a steam engine is something different, unusual and enjoyable. Whereas a diesel is commonplace, even though we enthusiasts know that diesel loco haulage of passenger trains on the national network is now rare, and that the diesels at preserved railways are just as much 'heritage' as the steam locos.

 

[Sun Chariot]

I was also at the Llangollen (by accident, funnily enough) and on the blue days 2/5 services are diesel.

I salute you! That's an excellent accidental location. I failed miserably, by comparison: I recently accidentally went round Wokingham town centre three times, trying to find the ruddy road toward Crawley.
On the plus side, my second "tour of the town" coincided with waiting at a level crossing just as the Hastings heritage set went past, with the return leg of the East West DEMU tour.