Objects being thrown at trains-a way to prevent this?

[TailLight]

We are discussing the use of the word "terrorism", not the word "terror". Terrorism is a political philosophy which aims to use "terror" to achieve political aims. It seems to me more likely that the groups of youths (or others) in question are more likely doing this for amusement, and not for political aims. Therefore, whatever else it is, it is not terrorism.

Derailing a train and causing hundreds of deaths doesn't count as terror because there was no political movement behind it

 

[ExRes]

This sort of thing happens daily or weekly depending where you are, it's shocking but not overly rare. To prevent it you need to look at the causes.
So my idea to prevent it would be:
1, people with a criminal record can't buy alcohol for 1 year. This will reduce the chance of drunken violence.
2, the people who throw stuff as they''ve "got nothing else to do" will be given a job which needs doing, drain clearing, painting unpainted metal, relaying uneven paving slabs etc. This will tire them, and give them something meaningful to do.

1, Totally unworkable, what would your reaction be if someone asked you for a copy of your criminal record when you asked for 6 cans of lager in Tesco ?

2, Rather possible you might have supporters of 'Human Rights' to contend with, maybe also the odd anti-slavery proponent

 

[ComUtoR]

I remember those films from school. God I'm old

As I said, hit em young.

 

[ExRes]

On the subject of the lack of facilities causing people to resort to throwing bricks and lumps of concrete at trains, I seem to recall that, back in ye olde days, we provided our own entertainment without the need for inexcusable vandalism

 

[najaB]

2, Rather possible you might have supporters of 'Human Rights' to contend with, maybe also the odd anti-slavery proponent

I don't think Human Rights legislation prevents community service punishments.

 

[backontrack]

Just air this during a commercial break.

Simples!

My God, that's creepy. I searched the full version on Wikipedia.

 

[ExRes]

I don't think Human Rights legislation prevents community service punishments.

I'm not attempting to quote Human Rights legislation, I'm just referring to he way the majority of people would react to such punishments as drain clearing and laying paving slabs

 

[GodAtum]

delete

 

[najaB]

I'm not attempting to quote Human Rights legislation, I'm just referring to he way the majority of people would react to such punishments as drain clearing and laying paving slabs

I think the majority would support such measures, it's a very vocal minority that you'd have to watch out for.

 

[chris89]

How do you enforce it? Ask every off license to ask everyone purchasing alcohol to show their criminal record?

Can't see this working.

You wouldn't be able to.

Considering the amount of people who get annoyed or iffy if you just ask them for ID.

 

[WestRiding]

I was travelling on the Goole to Leeds service yesterday and around Glasshougton, there was a loud bang near the front of the train. Some little scumbag had thought it was funny to lob a stone at the train, which had marked the window, but hadn't cracked it. (I checked it, mainly as the loud bang made me **** myself )

Glasshoughton is a **** hole! Full of Jeremy Kyle Families. So i only see 3 ways to stop this. Delete Glasshoughton. Ban school holidays in that province. Make all the women of child bearing age there sterile/or stop paying them benefits to breed.

 

[anme]

Derailing a train and causing hundreds of deaths doesn't count as terror because there was no political movement behind it

I didn't say it isn't "terror" (although that seems an odd word to use). I said it isn't "terrorism". To repeat once again - terrorism is a political philosophy. Unless you believe that this is done for political ends, it is *not* terrorism.

 

[Jonfun]

But plenty of terrorism is done on religious, not political, grounds?

 

[anme]

But plenty of terrorism is done on religious, not political, grounds?

Religion and politics can become entangled. I'm not saying I agree with your statement, but I would see an attempt (however misguided) of furthering the interests of a religion as "political", just like any other ideology.

Anyway I think we're getting rather off topic. My original point was that using the word "terrorism" in the context of this thread seems inaccurate.

 

[matchmaker]

I have tried to find details of a fatal crash in west London due to a concrete sleeper being placed on the tracks. what comes up is the 1973 incident following a battery box cover opening and striking a platform edge

Yep, motorawy bnridges as well. One funnier incident made the Darwin Awards where this contender found a nice large lump of reinforced concrete, what fun to drop it over the bridge.

As it did so, a metal rod embedded in the concrete caught his pants in the crotch and drivers not only had to contend with falling lumps of concrete, but a body as well

Greenock, 1994.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenock_rail_accident

On 25 June 1994, the 22:45 from Wemyss Bay to Glasgow, in Scotland, derailed and smashed into a bridge after hitting concrete blocks placed deliberately on the railway by vandals outside of where Drumfrochar railway station would be opened 4 years later.

Driver & one passenger killed.

 

[najaB]

But plenty of terrorism is done on religious, not political, grounds?

If you are thinking of Islamist terrorism, then Islamism is a political ideology.

 

[dcsprior]

How do you enforce it? Ask every off license to ask everyone purchasing alcohol to show their criminal record?

Can't see this working.

Provide every citizen with an "entitlement card" and introduce legislation which means every retailer need to validate it at point of sale for every sale of alcohol (or tobacco, or lottery, or solvents, etc).

At the point that the cardholder passes are age of 18, the alcohol entitlement is added to their record. This can be subequently removed.

I don't necessarily agree with doing the above, but that's not to say it's not quite easy to introduce.

 

[anme]

Provide every citizen with an "entitlement card" and introduce legislation which means every retailer need to validate it at point of sale for every sale of alcohol (or tobacco, or lottery, or solvents, etc).

At the point that the cardholder passes are age of 18, the alcohol entitlement is added to their record. This can be subequently removed.

I don't necessarily agree with doing the above, but that's not to say it's not quite easy to introduce.

I'm sure no-one would think of asking their friends to buy the alcohol for them.

BTW, I'm strongly in favour of doing this for cigarettes. Every adult can have the tobacco entitlement added to or removed from their card on request. Removal is instant, but adding it requires a one week "cooling off" period, which can be cancelled at any time. Would make giving up smoking much easier (obviously with the caveat above).

 

[dcsprior]

I'm sure no-one would think of asking their friends to buy the alcohol for them.

BTW, I'm strongly in favour of doing this for cigarettes. Every adult can have the tobacco entitlement added to or removed from their card on request. Removal is instant, but adding it requires a one week "cooling off" period, which can be cancelled at any time. Would make giving up smoking much easier (obviously with the caveat above).

Indeed, but if the card needed to be validated to even enter a pub, then their friends choice would be to go to the pub without them, or not go at all.

 

[6Gman]

It is not a new thing but as education standards continue to decline and the personal responsibility and common sense become things of the past, it continues to get worse.

Does it? Are there statistics to indicate this?

On a personal basis I encounter less of this type of vandalism. I cannot remember the last time I experienced a stone-throwing incident. Perhaps once in the last year? That's probably 150-200 journeys.

Back in the late 1970s I saw stone throwing on 5 journeys out of six (!) in the Longbridge area of Birmingham.

Purely anecdotal and not statistically valid, but in the absence of any other evidence ...

 

[TailLight]

I didn't say it isn't "terror" (although that seems an odd word to use). I said it isn't "terrorism". To repeat once again - terrorism is a political philosophy. Unless you believe that this is done for political ends, it is *not* terrorism.

No, as terrorism does not require 'political' motivation.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

1, Totally unworkable, what would your reaction be if someone asked you for a copy of your criminal record when you asked for 6 cans of lager in Tesco ?

2, Rather possible you might have supporters of 'Human Rights' to contend with, maybe also the odd anti-slavery proponent

1, How about a National Alcohol Card which is needed to buy alcohol and is taken away if any crime is commited fueled by Alcohol by the card holder for a year? It only has to be like a bus pass that over 18s automatically get, which is shown as proof of ID in shops.

2, Human Rights state: "No Punishment without Law" this is no different to standard Community Service which exists today, but they can continue working after the sentence finishes for money and as something to do. I am not promoting slavery in any way as I believe in Human Rights fully.

 

[TailLight]

1, How about a National Alcohol Card which is needed to buy alcohol and is taken away if any crime is commited fueled by Alcohol by the card holder for a year? It only has to be like a bus pass that over 18s automatically get, which is shown as proof of ID in shops.

2, Human Rights state: "No Punishment without Law" this is no different to standard Community Service which exists today, but they can continue working after the sentence finishes for money and as something to do. I am not promoting slavery in any way as I believe in Human Rights fully.

You can't be serious? Perhaps we should just skip the alcohol card and go straight to communism?

 

[matt_world2004]

There are already alchohol bans for certain people either, Court ordered in a similar process to Asbos or as a condition of probation. The onus on these cases is for the individual affected by the ban to not breach it and revocation probation/breech of court order sentences are used against them.

I believe some individuals effected by the alchohol ban have to be tested at either a scheduled or a random time, of course, I imagine a lot of them will still drink alchohol and escape detection, but if they commit further crimes under the influence of alchohol it becomes easier to jail them or punish them further.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No, as terrorism does not require 'political' motivation.

It can also require a religious motivation EG the old doomsday groups in America and Japan, who believe their terrorist acts are a fufillment of prophecy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you are thinking of Islamist terrorism, then Islamism is a political ideology.

Indeed, most terrorism is political rather than religious in and of itself. The religion tends just to be a convenient excuse, or something that gets the blame unnecessarily.

Irish terrorism, for instance, is mainly about which country should have Northern Ireland. It just so happens that the factions are split on religious lines. I'm not unconvinced that it wouldn't have happened anyway even if both countries had been of the same religious views.

 

[ComUtoR]

Indeed, but if the card needed to be validated to even enter a pub, then their friends choice would be to go to the pub without them, or not go at all.

Are my kids allowed in a pub ? What about a designated driver ? What if I'm hungry and fancy curry club ?

 

[anme]

No, as terrorism does not require 'political' motivation.

The Oxford English Dictionary agrees with me (check for yourself).

If we allow anyone who causes "terror" to be a "terrorist", it devalues the word to the point of making it worthless. Muggers, spiders, things that go bump in the night and the cast and crew of horror films would all qualify.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Indeed, but if the card needed to be validated to even enter a pub, then their friends choice would be to go to the pub without them, or not go at all.

We would also effectively ban foreigners from pubs. Try taking the idea to UKIP.

 

[dcsprior]

Are my kids allowed in a pub ? What about a designated driver ? What if I'm hungry and fancy curry club ?

These would not be insurmountable issues if we wanted to do this (and I'm not saying I would)

We would also effectively ban foreigners from pubs. Try taking the idea to UKIP.

This is possibly more of a problem, as to have a temporary solution for visitors would add costs which could put off tourists.

 

[backontrack]

Are my kids allowed in a pub?

Not unless you're David Cameron!

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Probably the best most efficient method albeit not politically correct is a bullet straight between the eyes, it's found that once done they don't come back & do it again.