Obtaining itemised receipt with VAT number for ticket purchased via SWR app

[joncombe]

I need to claim expenses for a train ticket I purchased via the SWR app. At the time of purchase the ticket office at the station wasn't open so I used the SWR app. However the online form for the company I'm claiming from is insisting they require an itemised receipt, which must include the VAT number. I have the ticket (it was an M-ticket) and the confirmation email but neither seem to show the VAT number. Is it possible to obtain this after purchase does anyone know?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Is rail travel subject to VAT?

Can't imagine that you'll get such a receipt with a VAT number on it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is rail travel subject to VAT?

No.

The receipt you need is just the email you were sent when you booked, that should show it all.

 

[joncombe]

Is rail travel subject to VAT?

Ah you are right, it isn't. I hadn't thought of that. Hopefully it won't matter that I can't provide that then.

 

[Neo9320]

I’m not sure about SWR, but I use GWR, and if I book on the app, I can then sign in to the website and download an expenses receipt. This has always been accepted by my (national) employer. I would imagine something similar should be available via SWR.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Rail travel is zero rated for VAT. There is no VAT receipt to issue. Where catering is part of the package, it is conventionally regarded as being offered free and is therefore not subject to VAT either. UK is relatively unusual in this respect (many other countries do charge VAT on rail travel), so don't knock it too much...!

 

[1955LR]

TOC's will be VAT registered and surely if travel is Zero rated, a receipt should have the VAT number and nil in the VAT column . If it were VAT exempt it might be different. If I have a VAT receipt for repairs on my Car that includes an MoT it will show nil VAT for the MoT

 

[Bletchleyite]

TOC's will be VAT registered and surely if travel is Zero rated, a receipt should have the VAT number and nil in the VAT column . If it were VAT exempt it might be different. If I have a VAT receipt for repairs on my Car that includes an MoT it will show nil VAT for the MoT

TOCs do not generally issue VAT receipts. I've never, ever come across any business context where a PDFed version of the booking confirmation email plus a photo of the tickets or e-ticket PDF (or physical tickets in some cases) wasn't sufficient.

If you really do want to find out the VAT number of a business, though, I suspect it is obtainable from the HMRC website in some form.

 

[Harpers Tate]

[Pedant]Even though the direct effect on the end-user is the same, technically, there is a big difference between VAT-exempt (no VAT payable) and zero-rated (VAT is due at 0%). A company dealing in zero-rated items (such as rail travel) will, if its turnover is high enough, need to register for VAT. The same is not true of VAT-exempt items. I can't say what this means in terms of any organisation's expenses policy, though. [/pedant]

 

[Bletchleyite]

[Pedant]Even though the direct effect on the end-user is the same, technically, there is a big difference between VAT-exempt (no VAT payable) and zero-rated (VAT is due at 0%). A company dealing in zero-rated items (such as rail travel) will, if its turnover is high enough, need to register for VAT. The same is not true of VAT-exempt items. I can't say what this means in terms of any organisation's expenses policy, though. [/pedant]

It's irrelevant. Well, it's relevant to the company accountants, but not to an expenses claim.

I've claimed rail expenses from a number of businesses. You don't use a VAT receipt. You use the tickets, and if they want more information or want to prove it was bought a particular way then the email confirmation from the booking site "printed to PDF".

VAT receipts aren't issued for train tickets in the UK, other than if one of the more business-oriented booking sites might do it.

 

[SteveM70]

Out of curiosity, what’s the VAT treatment of a sleeper ticket?

 

[Sleepy]

Catering sales on board do provide VAT no. on request. As stated tickets are not subject to VAT.

 

[Adam Williams]

TrainSplit will issue proper VAT receipts for expense claims, with the VAT registration number present and the correct amount of VAT listed (in most cases, as has been outlined above, the supply is of zero-rated services, so the total will be £0.00).

There's no reason TOCs shouldn't be able to do the same.

 

[station_road]

The SWR website says

https://www.southwesternrailway.com/contact-and-help/faqs

Can I get a VAT receipt for my tickets?

No. There is no VAT on train tickets. A receipt is printed along with your tickets when you collect them from a ticket machine, or on request from the ticket office. If you need proof of purchase for accounting purposes, you can use this or your confirmation email, which contains all the relevant payment information.

For what it's worth, their VAT number is

Company name on VAT Registration:	FIRST MTR SOUTH WESTERN TRAINS LIMITED
VAT number:	GB 267035795

 

[Starmill]

Lots of TOCs either currently or previously sold car parking, which is subject to VAT and as such a VAT receipt generally had to be possible to issue at a ticket office. Sometimes ticket offices might have also sold souvenirs or been combined with a small retail outlet (e.g. Merseyrail shops).

Obviously you wouldn't be able to oblige the booking office to issue you a VAT receipt unless you'd actually bought something you'd paid VAT on.

 

[LowLevel]

TOCs do not generally issue VAT receipts. I've never, ever come across any business context where a PDFed version of the booking confirmation email plus a photo of the tickets or e-ticket PDF (or physical tickets in some cases) wasn't sufficient.

If you really do want to find out the VAT number of a business, though, I suspect it is obtainable from the HMRC website in some form.

The receipts printed by our mobile machines (transaction receipts, as opposed to the card receipts you get by default for card payments) do show a VAT number but it is zero rated. We generally issue these to business travellers by request, it is just a matter of clicking the print transaction receipt button on the phone. Mostly useful for cash payments for carers out with disabled people etc who might be spending cash on behalf of the person they're caring for, but find a receipt with the total cash spent on rail fares as one figure useful.

 

[crablab]

I tried, unsuccessfully, to get a proper VAT receipt/invoice from LNER as the 'receipts' they issue online are unhelpfully formatted.

For what it is worth, our accounts department will not accept just a ticket for the purpose of expenses claims. When you buy a ticket at a TVM there is a button to 'print receipt', which they need. This is a VAT receipt (printed on CCST), and includes the VAT reg number.

Likewise, you can get a VAT receipt at ticket office.

So I really don't understand why LNER etc. refuse to issue proper VAT invoices for online purchases - the fact it is VAT exempt isn't really relevant. (It's the same deal with buying postage - some of that is zero rated or exempt but Royal Mail still issue proper invoices).

My understanding is there is a legal requirement for VAT registered businesses to issue VAT invoices to other VAT registered businesses: https://www.gov.uk/charge-reclaim-record-vat

 

[Starmill]

For what it is worth, our accounts department will not accept just a ticket for the purpose of expenses claims.

That's pretty bizarre it has to be said. It sounds like they don't really understand the rules to me.

 

[Class800]

It is not the railway's requirement to pander to overly pedantic third parties - such third parties need to respond to reality

 

[Starmill]

Out of curiosity, what’s the VAT treatment of a sleeper ticket?

In general, packaged products such as meals, drinks or newspapers etc in First Class, car parking at the station, berth accommodation and so on is allowed the same generous zero rate as the travel itself, though there may be some exceptions.

Separately sold car parking, food and drink and so on must be charged VAT at whatever rate is applicable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My understanding is there is a legal requirement for VAT registered businesses to issue VAT invoices to other VAT registered businesses: https://www.gov.uk/charge-reclaim-record-vat

The get-out on this is that they say it is their consumer sales channel and you have to contract their business sales service if you want that.

It's not any use to them, though - you can't reclaim zero VAT.

 

[crablab]

It's not any use to them, though - you can't reclaim zero VAT.

Agreed. I think it's more because an invoice has a standard set of information on it in a standard format.

That's pretty bizarre it has to be said. It sounds like they don't really understand the rules to me.

I understand it to be because the ticket doesn't actually show the purchase of the ticket and confirmation of payment, nor show the full amount of the transaction (which could involve multiple tickets).

The ticket is the 'thing you have bought' - permission to travel. It's not intended, and does not show, the payment for the 'thing' or the VAT status.

(Just to explain this a bit more - it's like submitting a picture of a book as proof of an expenses claim. The book has a price on it and all the information about the book but it doesn't show who you bought it from, the actual price paid less discounts, how you paid, when you bought it etc.)

It is not the railway's requirement to pander to overly pedantic third parties - such third parties need to respond to reality

I don't think this attitude is particularly helpful, to be honest. If people find it difficult to claim expenses on train tickets then they just won't use the train for business travel.
I'm not saying that is the case (nor that my views on invoicing are correct) but there sometimes does sometimes seem to be a attitude that the railway is always right, and everyone else can dance with its tune. That's not a great attitude to have imo.

I would be happy to concede that a ticket on it's own is enough information for an expenses claim, if the railway feels strongly that it is, on the publication of some kind of document that explains why this is the case and how finance/account departments should handle it. If the railway doesn't always want to produce standard form invoices, I think it should be incumbent on them to explain how what they do provide is sufficient. Usually the response to "we don't want to provide an invoice" is "well we're not paying you then"...

 

[Starmill]

Just to explain this a bit more - it's like submitting a picture of a book as proof of an expenses claim. The book has a price on it and all the information about the book but it doesn't show who you bought it from, the actual price paid less discounts, how you paid, when you bought it etc.

A train ticket is unlike a book precisely because it does show all of those things!

I don't think this attitude is particularly helpful, to be honest. If people find it difficult to claim expenses on train tickets then they just won't use the train for business travel.

Even small companies generally have a free corporate booking account nowadays so I'm not really sure how this is an issue. Trainline offer one without a fee, as do various TOCs.

Large firms invariably seem to have one provided by their international travel supplier. Usually it is Evolvi corporate they're using.

 

[crablab]

A train ticket is unlike a book precisely because it does show all of those things!

Where might a ticket show how the fare was paid and the total of the transaction?

Even small companies generally have a free corporate booking account nowadays so I'm not really sure how this is an issue.

Yup, this is a good solution to this issue These issue proper VAT invoices and avoid individuals having to claim back money.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Where might a ticket show how the fare was paid

The letter suffix of the price shows it as long as you know what they are - M = cash, I forget the others.

Why does it matter though? The money has been spent and is due to the employee regardless of if they paid cash or card or even RTV.

and the total of the transaction?

Is the same as all the tickets added up, unless you're silly enough to use Trainline.

For edge cases like Trainsplit include the confirmation email.

 

[Starmill]

Usually the response to "we don't want to provide an invoice" is "well we're not paying you then"...

Invoices in standard format will always be provided in business transactions.

Where might a ticket show how the fare was paid and the total of the transaction?

The payment type is shown by a letter next to the price. The total is shown by putting the tickets together and adding them up.

 

[43066]

If people find it difficult to claim expenses on train tickets then they just won't use the train for business travel.
I'm not saying that is the case (nor that my views on invoicing are correct) but there sometimes does sometimes seem to be a attitude that the railway is always right, and everyone else can dance with its tune. That's not a great attitude to have imo

Why can’t you just use the email receipt you received? It sounds like the issue is with your accounts department.

Pre railway I never had issues simply using tickets/receipts when claiming rail travel as an expense from various organisations I worked for.

 

[Starmill]

Why does it matter though? The money has been spent and is due to the employee regardless of if they paid cash or card or even RTV.

It's very difficult to understand why this really matters. Ultimately the business can only permit expenses to be claimed by trusted actors, such as their employees or a selection of approved contractors. Paying expenses is based on the trust that the person submitting them is being honest, and it has to be, because creating realistic looking fake receipts isn't exactly technically difficult - a receipt printer is £30 on ebay.

If you can't trust someone with this process, you'll have to provide them with the bookings directly and have a member of admin or management staff do it for them. Or find some new employees you can trust. Same with company credit cards.

 

[crablab]

The payment type is shown by a letter next to the price. The total is shown by putting the tickets together and adding them up.

But this is kinda my point. Issuing a standard invoice would resolve the ambiguity here. I'm not sure how many finance administrators are familiar with the ticketing format... The only place I've seen the letter next to the price explained is in a manual in the National Archives.
Is it explained on NRE somewhere?

Why does it matter though? The money has been spent and is due to the employee regardless of if they paid cash or card or even RTV.

Well I think the idea is that the invoice (ideally) would show that you purchased it, and didn't just pick up a ticket off the floor etc. I don't know - as I say, multiple employers have told me that train tickets need the 'receipt' (not just the debit/credit card sales voucher) for them to process it properly.

Ultimately I imagine the paperwork is just to establish a level of confidence that you did indeed incur the expense, that it complies with the policies (ie. it was a train and not a visit to a bar) and for financial reporting purposes.

It would just be helpful if the railway could perhaps consider issuing standard format invoices and receipts like everyone else is able to

It sounds like the issue is with your accounts department.

Possibly. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just advocating for something I would find useful because of a particular situation I have personally experienced.

 

[43066]

Possibly. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just advocating for something I would find useful because of a particular situation I have personally experienced.

I’m sure “the railway” (TOCs in this case) will issue invoices for business to business transactions. You do have the option to obtain a receipt from a TVM, and the email receipt should reflect proof of purchase. It’s odd to see why an accounts department shouldn’t accept this - as indicated above its suggestive of a very low level of trust in their own employees!

If it comes to it perhaps you could show them the record of the transaction from your online banking?