Old Panorama Trains

[Giugiaro]

Good afternoon,

I was reading an article about the design of a 90's regional train when I came across 4 trains mentioned but not pictured. They're the following:

- 1900 Thunder Boxes
- 1930 Glass Train
- 1949 Belvedere
- 1952 Settebello

I was able to find out that the Settebello was the Italian ETR 300, but didn't fish anything relevant on Google concerning the 3 older examples.

Any idea what the other trains correspond to? I somehow expect the Thunder Boxes to be British built cars, the Glass Train an American train (though Henry Dreyfuss and Raymond Loewy portfolios gave out no results) and the Belvedere to be Italian, American or even Canadian (for some reason).

 

[superalbs]

I would guess these?

1900 Thunder Boxes - ???
1930 Glass Train - DB Glass Train https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRG_Class_ET_91
1949 Belvedere - SR 4DD https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD
1952 Settebello - FS ETR.300 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FS_Class_ETR_300

 

[hexagon789]

I'd guess these might be thunderboxes, though 1921 not 1900: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donnerbüchse

 

[30907]

I would guess these?

1900 Thunder Boxes - ???
1930 Glass Train - DB Glass Train https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRG_Class_ET_91
1949 Belvedere - SR 4DD https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD
1952 Settebello - FS ETR.300 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FS_Class_ETR_300

Not sure about the 4DDs - Belvedere is a station they would have stopped at, but the word means beautiful view hence balcony/viewpoint.
The other two are right (so is Donnerbuechse/Thunderbox - dogbox to us though I think it means outside loo in German!).
Perhaps the OP could explain a bit more, because the types of train listed have nothing obviously in common.

 

[etr221]

'Belvedere' was the the name given to FS (Italy) railcar ALtn444.3001 (rebuilt 1949 from ALn 772.3240 with a dome) - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:FS_Class_ALn_772 and http://www.leferrovie.it/leferrovie...e_tecniche:automotrici:termiche:altn_444.3001 .

Like the DR 'Glass Train' ET91 it was intended for tourist services, providing good visibility for the passengers; the ETR 300 Settebello, and ETR 250 Arlecchino, electric trains provided observation saloons at each end, with high level driving cabs in the roof.
SNCF had similar (diesel) railcars, X4200 Panoramique and X3800 Picasso.

In the early days of railcars, before things got more sophisticated, one answer to the problem of needing more than one cab, or a driving trailer, was to have a single, elevated, cab with the driver looking along and over the roofs of the train. - whether any of these acquired the soubriquet of thunderboxes I don't know.

 

[30907]

SNCF had similar (diesel) railcars, X4200 Panoramique and X3800 Picasso.

In the early days of railcars, before things got more sophisticated, one answer to the problem of needing more than one cab, or a driving trailer, was to have a single, elevated, cab with the driver looking along and over the roofs of the train. - whether any of these acquired the soubriquet of thunderboxes I don't know.

I only know of Picasso for those - and Google doesn't produce anything other than the German one.

I wonder if the German term was originally applied to the compartment type stock with an elevated guard's compartment? No evidence in another quick Google search though.

 

[MarcVD]

Donnerbuesche : named like that just because of the rolling noise inside....

X4200 panoramique had the driving posts at normal height and the passenger cabin elevated. Lots of glass, no airco, mainly used on scenic lines of southern France. Was not a great success...

X3800 Picasso was built with one driving post on the roof just to make it less expensive to build. The driver, ij I remember well, was just above the motor so that the controls were direct mechanical links.

 

[Giugiaro]

Perhaps the OP could explain a bit more, because the types of train listed have nothing obviously in common.

The particularity of the article I read was about how the new train (ADTranz PT Train) was designed to have as much view to the outside as possible, turning the landscape into a part of the experience of everyday travel.
The rolling stock mentioned was just as written above, names and dates. No more hints beyond that.

The reason why the Thunderboxes are included has to do with the author's reference to saloon cars with outside balcony, which he considered them as a place for passengers to enjoy the view and socialize. If that was true or not, I can't say, as what applies to touristic trains nowadays may not be so true 60/80 years ago when this stock was in regular service.

 

[Gordon]

The reason why the Thunderboxes are included has to do with the author's reference to saloon cars with outside balcony, which he considered them as a place for passengers to enjoy the view and socialize. If that was true or not, I can't say, as what applies to touristic trains nowadays may not be so true 60/80 years ago when this stock was in regular service.

Absolutely not true I'd say, and a very odd notion form the author! When the Thunderboxes were built, the 'outside balcony' is just a cheap way of building a coach (and many other coaches of that era were built that way, not just the German Thunderboxes) to give a way for passengers to get on to the coach. I would say that it is only modren tourists riding on preserved examples that would deliberately stand outside to 'enjoy the view'. When they were in normal service passengers would be quick to get into the interior of the coach to avoid being covered by smoke and grime from the locomotive.

 

[Gordon]

Like the DR 'Glass Train' ET91 it was intended for tourist services, providing good visibility for the passengers; the ETR 300 Settebello, and ETR 250 Arlecchino, electric trains provided observation saloons at each end, with high level driving cabs in the roof.
SNCF had similar (diesel) railcars, X4200 Panoramique and X3800 Picasso.

The SNCF Picassos (I've driven one by the way!) were not deliberately designed to have 'observation car' status, but SNCF did 'market' the to some extent as having a nice view due to one end being free of a driving cab.

The SNCF Panoramiques are a different concept. They have driving cabs at each end and a 'vista dome' like the American dome cars, deliberately designed for scenic routes in central France and the Alps. Indeed they were built following a visit to America by SNCF's Traction and Rolling stock Director who saw Vista Domes in service

By contrast, not so far mentioned are the 'Bugatti' railcars that were deliberately provided with 'observation' ends as a luxury benefit to passengers previously confined to steam hauled coaches.
https://retours.eu/en/23-autorail-bugatti/#9

.

 

[Gordon]

X4200 panoramique ... Was not a great success...

Don't know why not. They fulfilled their roll for many years, but the routes they were on got 'taken away from them', but they built in 1959 and were still running on scenic lines until 1985 so saw nearly 30 years of service.



.

 

[MarcVD]

Don't know why not.

Just imagine yourself sitting in such a glasshouse, in plain sunlight, south of France, 35 degrees outside, no shade to hide into, and no air conditioning...

 

[Giugiaro]

... in plain sunlight, south of France, 35 degrees outside, no shade to hide into, and no air conditioning...

Perfect for French Toast.