Old Street as "London Terminals" - origin

[straller]

Hello,

I'm doing a challenge where I visit all London Terminals stations, and after discovering that Old Street also is included under the station group, it got me thinking, how did Old Street get this status, and why does it not extend to other stations on the Northern City Line like Essex Road and Highbury & Islington.

Thanks.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Presumably because it’s a national rail terminus

 

[Watershed]

Presumably because it’s a national rail terminus

It's a station served by National Rail services but it isn't a terminus.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Hello,

I'm doing a challenge where I visit all London Terminals stations, and after discovering that Old Street also is included under the station group, it got me thinking, how did Old Street get this status, and why does it not extend to other stations on the Northern City Line like Essex Road and Highbury & Islington.

Thanks.

I wonder if the challenge-setters mistook Old Street for Broad Steet?

 

[Haywain]

I wonder if the challenge-setters mistook Old Street for Broad Steet?

Old Street station is a member of the London Terminals group, and it wasn’t included in the group as part of a challenge. It is also not the only station in that group at which trains do not terminate as Vauxhall and Waterloo East are part of the same group. Similarly, no trains terminate at City Thameslink but that was a replacement for Holborn Viaduct at which they did.

 

[gordonthemoron]

It's a station served by National Rail services but it isn't a terminus.

Yes, I forgot the terminus is actually Moorgate

 

[TUC]

Old Street station is a member of the London Terminals group, and it wasn’t included in the group as part of a challenge. It is also not the only station in that group at which trains do not terminate as Vauxhall and Waterloo East are part of the same group. Similarly, no trains terminate at City Thameslink but that was a replacement for Holborn Viaduct at which they did.

But that still leave the question of why it is regarded as a 'terminal'?

 

[hkstudent]

But that still leave the question of why it is regarded as a 'terminal'?

London Terminals is a term for fare purposes, which gives a bit of flexibility and less complexity on station name printing on tickets.

So Vauxhall despite not a terminal but being so “central” to London, is defined as London terminal to charge a “London” premium, and validates any “+ via London” route.

Same case for Old Street, as being in zone 1 London.

 

[30907]

So Vauxhall despite not a terminal but being so “central” to London, is defined as London terminal to charge a “London” premium, and validates any “+ via London” route.

Having Vauxhall listed adds value for customers connecting off the SE at Waterloo E.

Same case for Old Street, as being in zone 1 London.

I think you may have the reason there - good spot!

 

[Hadders]

I suspect the reason for Old Street being a London Terminal will go back to the 1970s and the British Rail takeover of the Northern City Line.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I suspect the reason for Old Street being a London Terminal will go back to the 1970s and the British Rail takeover of the Northern City Line.

I imagine the reason was that Old Street and Moorgate are relatively close together and the Northern Line serves both (as well as the Northern City Line). So having Old Street and Moorgate as London Terminals would have been a way of preventing any fare anomalies in the days before the Capitalcard and the zones.

 

[Hassocks5489]

From a ticketing/fares perspective, Old Street was included within the "London BR" station group (pre-privatisation equivalent of London Terminals) with effect from National Fares Manual 32 in January 1986. (Kensington Olympia was introduced at the same time, but was dropped from May 1994.) As to why: essentially, because it is a Zone 1 station, as noted above. (I know Kensington Olympia isn't, but there were other reasons for its inclusion.)

For context, some text from my unpublished research into station groups – second paragraph is particularly relevant: (The "As part of the progress..." part is a direct quote from the Manual.)

****

The introduction of the pseudo-destination LONDON SR with effect from 26 April 1970 marked the first time British Rail had created a notional common location with its own National Location Code (5443) to cover multiple stations. Tickets issued to LONDON SR were valid to Blackfriars, Cannon Street, Charing Cross, Holborn Viaduct, London Bridge, Vauxhall, Victoria, Waterloo and Waterloo East. These were the Southern Region’s central London stations and termini at the time, hence the abbreviation “SR”. Tickets usually showed LONDON (S.R.) or LONDON (SR) at first to make the distinction clearer.

The concept was extended to the London termini of other Regions with the publication of Selective Prices Manual* 27 in May 1983: “As part of the progress towards simplification of routes and a reduction of entries [within the Manual], a common origin/destination of LONDON BR has been adopted for most London fares”. It was explained that tickets issued to this new pseudo-location could be used to travel from/to any of the 18 stations in the list, “subject to normal route availabilities” applicable to the origin or destination station. For example, Romford to Liverpool Street would be a reasonable route, and so would Romford to Fenchurch Street (via Upminster) and – in theory, at least – Romford to Broad Street (via Stratford); so a ticket from Romford to LONDON BR would be valid to any of those termini. It would not be valid to Marylebone or Waterloo, for example, because no reasonable route existed from Romford to those places using British Rail services only, and any possible route would be so convoluted that a much higher fare would be applicable.

****

*The name for the National Fares Manual at the time.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

The concept was extended to the London termini of other Regions with the publication of Selective Prices Manual* 27 in May 1983:

There were tickets available at the same price to a choice of terminals long before that. For example Chiltern Line stations such as High Wycombe to both Marylebone and Paddington. Also Cambridge to both Liverpool Street and Kings Cross.

 

[Hassocks5489]

There were tickets available at the same price to a choice of terminals long before that. For example Chiltern Line stations such as High Wycombe to both Marylebone and Paddington. Also Cambridge to both Liverpool Street and Kings Cross.

Indeed, but as I understand it such tickets would always have named the specific termini in question, rather than being issued to a generic "quasi"-destination.

 

[straller]

From a ticketing/fares perspective, Old Street was included within the "London BR" station group (pre-privatisation equivalent of London Terminals) with effect from National Fares Manual 32 in January 1986. (Kensington Olympia was introduced at the same time, but was dropped from May 1994.) As to why: essentially, because it is a Zone 1 station, as noted above. (I know Kensington Olympia isn't, but there were other reasons for its inclusion.)

For context, some text from my unpublished research into station groups – second paragraph is particularly relevant: (The "As part of the progress..." part is a direct quote from the Manual.)

****

The introduction of the pseudo-destination LONDON SR with effect from 26 April 1970 marked the first time British Rail had created a notional common location with its own National Location Code (5443) to cover multiple stations. Tickets issued to LONDON SR were valid to Blackfriars, Cannon Street, Charing Cross, Holborn Viaduct, London Bridge, Vauxhall, Victoria, Waterloo and Waterloo East. These were the Southern Region’s central London stations and termini at the time, hence the abbreviation “SR”. Tickets usually showed LONDON (S.R.) or LONDON (SR) at first to make the distinction clearer.

The concept was extended to the London termini of other Regions with the publication of Selective Prices Manual* 27 in May 1983: “As part of the progress towards simplification of routes and a reduction of entries [within the Manual], a common origin/destination of LONDON BR has been adopted for most London fares”. It was explained that tickets issued to this new pseudo-location could be used to travel from/to any of the 18 stations in the list, “subject to normal route availabilities” applicable to the origin or destination station. For example, Romford to Liverpool Street would be a reasonable route, and so would Romford to Fenchurch Street (via Upminster) and – in theory, at least – Romford to Broad Street (via Stratford); so a ticket from Romford to LONDON BR would be valid to any of those termini. It would not be valid to Marylebone or Waterloo, for example, because no reasonable route existed from Romford to those places using British Rail services only, and any possible route would be so convoluted that a much higher fare would be applicable.

****

*The name for the National Fares Manual at the time.

Thanks.

Would you happen to know why this inclusion was limited to Old Street, and not Essex Road or Hkghbury & Islington? Just connections?

 

[plugwash]

Interchanges aside, Old street is a lot closer to "central London" than either of the other two.

 

[30907]

Thanks.

Would you happen to know why this inclusion was limited to Old Street, and not Essex Road or Hkghbury & Islington? Just connections?

I would assume because it is in Zone 1 not 2 - as per post #12 which appears to be from an insider.

 

[Hassocks5489]

Thanks.

Would you happen to know why this inclusion was limited to Old Street, and not Essex Road or Hkghbury & Islington? Just connections?

I don't know for certain (the Fares Manual doesn't elaborate on it), but I think the reasons given in the two posts above this one are the most likely.

 

[straller]

I would assume because it is in Zone 1 not 2 - as per post #12 which appears to be from an insider.

Thanks