Oldest stock still in passenger use

[mallard]

Why couldn't they have used 1949 or 1956 stock on Island Line? Surely it would have been more cost effective to use newer trains with therefore less maintenance than to use older trains?

Then again, actual availability of the stock is another thing.

Because the 1949 stock was just a supplemental order of non-driving motor cars of 1938 design and the 1956 stock consisted of only three units?

If they had stuck with the standard stock for just a few more years they could have had 1962 stock...

 

[delt1c]

Why would you count the Class 483?

I didnt say I wasnt counting the IOW 483's, I said if you arnt counting them. I am just following on from earlier posts , If they are counted them yes they are the oldest stock in daily revenue service , if you are talking about stock on the mainline ( as oposed to isolated lines ) then the Caledonian seated sleeper coaches are the oldest followed by the prototype HST trailers.

 

[87015]

The Class 483 is mainline registered!

Are they fitted with OTMR/TPWS? Didn't appear to be any obvious sign of either, that I could see anyway.

 

[EM2]

Is the 1938 Class 483 former LU Northern Line stock the oldest rolling stock still in regular passenger use in the UK?

That was the original question asked. Being registered for mainline use wasn't involved.
So surely the 483s must count?

 

[MCR247]

Are they fitted with OTMR/TPWS? Didn't appear to be any obvious sign of either, that I could see anyway.

Is the IOW line part of the UK Network? Yes
Is it a preserved line? No

 

[tbtc]

Because the 1949 stock was just a supplemental order of non-driving motor cars of 1938 design and the 1956 stock consisted of only three units?

If they had stuck with the standard stock for just a few more years they could have had 1962 stock...

Has there not been any ex LUL stock withdrawn since those?

Are there plans to cascade any future withdrawn stock to the Island Line?

 

[asylumxl]

Has there not been any ex LUL stock withdrawn since those?

Are there plans to cascade any future withdrawn stock to the Island Line?

I think they've been considering cascading more modern stock to it, but worry that the newer trains electronics may not like the salt-water environment.

 

[starrymarkb]

They were offered the 1983 stock but declined it as being crap.

1967 is the next stock to go but is ATO, followed by 1972 stock from the Bakerloo around 2015 (that I suspect they might be more interested in)

 

[Tom C]

They are only from the 60s

I think the 421/7's are from the 71/72 build, although I could be wrong

 

[poshbakerloo]

I havn't been on a very old train for a while...

The oldest I go on regularly are 158s but they are 1988-1991 i think

 

[Daimler]

They were offered the 1983 stock but declined it as being crap.

1967 is the next stock to go but is ATO, followed by 1972 stock from the Bakerloo around 2015 (that I suspect they might be more interested in)

But is there really any point in replacing them unless they're life-expired. They do the job - I assume they're fairly reliable, being so simple - and offer a nice heritage feel to the trains - it's almost as though it's a preserved line, so you could argue replacing them would result in a worsening of the travelling experience, rather than an improvement.

 

[tbtc]

But is there really any point in replacing them unless they're life-expired. They do the job - I assume they're fairly reliable, being so simple - and offer a nice heritage feel to the trains - it's almost as though it's a preserved line, so you could argue replacing them would result in a worsening of the travelling experience, rather than an improvement.

...but to the good people of the Island, it's their local railway, the train they use to get to work or whatever. Yes, it's a tourist location, but nobody suggests we have 1930s trains as the only rolling stock on the line to Blackpool or Torbay

 

[Daimler]

...but to the good people of the Island, it's their local railway, the train they use to get to work or whatever. Yes, it's a tourist location, but nobody suggests we have 1930s trains as the only rolling stock on the line to Blackpool or Torbay

But what would the '72 stock offer over the 483s? It's not like they're air-conditioned, or more spacious, or even better appointed. They merely are newer - is it worth it for the few people using the line who aren't holidaymakers (for I feel fairly certain the majority will be, bearing in mind the limited nature of the network and modest speeds).

Now, if you were to offer them some fully air-con fitted, more refined modern stock, I might agree. As London Underground isn't even building any air-con tube stock today, that won't be for a long time, though!

 

[Burkitt]

But what would the '72 stock offer over the 483s?

Last time I rode on the Island Line the ride quality in the 38 stock was bouncy to say the least. I'm not sure how much of an improvement newer stock would be given the track quality though.
Also 67, 72 and 73 stock interiors were heavily refurbished in the early 90s, so they look at lot fresher than the rather battered NSE-refurbished 38 stock.

 

[MCR247]

But the newer trains probably wouldnt cope with the salt-water at Pier-Head station

 

[jv3531]

IOW has not been TPWS'd to my knowledge and therefore would not require retro fitting of equipment. As far as I am aware, there has not been a requirement for 38 stock to be OTMR'd either, also fitting it into the system would probably require a heafty rebuild of componants and probably difficult to say the least. I know that quite a bit of work went into fitting the bubble cars with it when they were done. The also do not have any AWS kit, am not sure if the line is even trip-cock fitted either.

The line is classed as "mainline" for one of the main reasons, it is part of the rail network and the stock could only be moved by loco if it ever were to run on uk lines, this being another reason it was given main-line certification. If I recall, the voltage is different on IOW to mainline anyway and I seem to remember that it required mods for the units to be able to run on the lines anyway before entering service, thus preventing them being able to operate even on home ground.

 

[devon_metro]

But the newer trains probably wouldnt cope with the salt-water at Pier-Head station

Really?? I find that very hard to believe. Considering modern trains (desiros) etc are an aluminium shell, whereas 1938 tube stock is presumably steel with a fairly high iron content. Thus, quite prone to corrosion and weathering.

1956 Prototype stock was the first to come with aluminium stock on the LU akaik.

 

[paul1609]

But what would the '72 stock offer over the 483s? It's not like they're air-conditioned, or more spacious, or even better appointed. They merely are newer - is it worth it for the few people using the line who aren't holidaymakers (for I feel fairly certain the majority will be, bearing in mind the limited nature of the network and modest speeds).

Now, if you were to offer them some fully air-con fitted, more refined modern stock, I might agree. As London Underground isn't even building any air-con tube stock today, that won't be for a long time, though!

I'll think you'll find that there are a lot more locals using the line than you imagine.
The reason for this is that Employment and education opportunities on the island are quite limited and many islanders commute to the mainland using the railway to travel to the fast cat at Ryde Pier head. If you look at the winter timetable for the fastcat http://www.wightlink.co.uk/media/107501/pr2009-03.pdf youll notice that Mon-Fri the service goes to 2 per hour in the peaks to accomodate this wheras off peak 1 an hour is ample.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

IOW has not been TPWS'd to my knowledge and therefore would not require retro fitting of equipment. As far as I am aware, there has not been a requirement for 38 stock to be OTMR'd either, also fitting it into the system would probably require a heafty rebuild of componants and probably difficult to say the least. I know that quite a bit of work went into fitting the bubble cars with it when they were done. The also do not have any AWS kit, am not sure if the line is even trip-cock fitted either.

The line is classed as "mainline" for one of the main reasons, it is part of the rail network and the stock could only be moved by loco if it ever were to run on uk lines, this being another reason it was given main-line certification. If I recall, the voltage is different on IOW to mainline anyway and I seem to remember that it required mods for the units to be able to run on the lines anyway before entering service, thus preventing them being able to operate even on home ground.

Island line is fitted with LU tripcock equipment. The voltage is the same as LU the mods are for the change from 4 to 3 rail operation.

 

[starrymarkb]

When the 72 stock is replaced the 1938 stock will be coming up for 80 years old. They might leave it further, I was just saying they'd probably be more interested in that then they were in the 1967 or 1983. The 1972 stock isn't very electronic either.

 

[Daimler]

I'll think you'll find that there are a lot more locals using the line than you imagine.
The reason for this is that Employment and education opportunities on the island are quite limited and many islanders commute to the mainland using the railway to travel to the fast cat at Ryde Pier head. If you look at the winter timetable for the fastcat http://www.wightlink.co.uk/media/107501/pr2009-03.pdf youll notice that Mon-Fri the service goes to 2 per hour in the peaks to accomodate this wheras off peak 1 an hour is ample.

Fair enough! I must confess, I hadn't considered the idea of locals travelling over to the mainland, but thinking about it that makes sense.

Nevertheless, the network is rather limited - wouldn't the majority of island commuters use their cars to access ferry terminals?

 

[25322]

You are all up the wrong tree


The oldest stock in regular use was built in 1872 and runs on the Ffestiniog Railway. However these have been rebuilt but the are some that haven't built circa 1880 to 1900.

Got to make the oldest regular running stock in the world let alone the UK

 

[CCF23]

You are all up the wrong tree


The oldest stock in regular use was built in 1872 and tuns on the Ffestiniog Railway. There are older ones but these have been rebuilt so I haven't counted them.

I know Prince was built in 1863 and is the oldest regularly working steam locomotive in the world. Regarding everyday use on the UK network then the 483's (1938 stock) is the oldest. I think they are due for replacement in 2016 likely to be 1972 stock from Bakerloo Line or maybe 1973 stock from the Piccadilly Line. The A Stock on the Metropolitan Line were built in two batches between 1960 and 1962. And many people don't seem to appreciate the age of these trains as they are London Underground trains, they were built the same year as the last BR steam train in this country Evening Star which was built in 1960 at Swindon.

 

[MCR247]

Really?? I find that very hard to believe. Considering modern trains (desiros) etc are an aluminium shell, whereas 1938 tube stock is presumably steel with a fairly high iron content. Thus, quite prone to corrosion and weathering.

1956 Prototype stock was the first to come with aluminium stock on the LU akaik.

I actually meant the elctricals and stuff underneath, as the 38ts would be more basic than the 67ts

 

[O L Leigh]

You are all up the wrong tree

Agree...

The oldest stock in regular use was built in 1872 and runs on the Ffestiniog Railway. However these have been rebuilt but the are some that haven't built circa 1880 to 1900.

Got to make the oldest regular running stock in the world let alone the UK

...and disagree.

Coaches 1-5 on the Tal-y-Llyn narrow gauge railway in Wales are older. These coaches were built in 1866-67 and have been in continuous use ever since.

The Tal-y-Llyn has never been closed (though it has come close a few times) and as such it is not a "preserved" railway. Although it caters largely for tourists these days, it is still an everyday working railway. The only difference between these coaches and the IOW stock that is getting a lot of attention is that they are narrow gauge and somehow not "mainline". Then again, the OP makes not such distinctions in the question. We're simply being asked what is the oldest passenger stock in regular use in the UK.

Mind you, I got ignored the first time roudnd and am not expecting anything different this time.

O L Leigh

 

[Old Timer]

Slightly off topic but had this been a few years back, one of the Royal Train vehicles (2911) would have been the oldest standard gauge vehicles, as it was built in 1920. 2910 and 2912 which were the next oldest were built in 1941 and 1942 respectively. All have now been withdrawn.

The oldest current Royal Train vehicles in service are 2920 and 2921 which were built in 1969.

 

[Daimler]

Slightly off topic but had this been a few years back, one of the Royal Train vehicles (2911) would have been the oldest standard gauge vehicles, as it was built in 1920. 2910 and 2912 which were the next oldest were built in 1941 and 1942 respectively. All have now been withdrawn.

The oldest current Royal Train vehicles in service are 2920 and 2921 which were built in 1969.

Not quite - the Queen of Scots rake contains older vehicles, and is still in service now:

The oldest car in the Queen of Scots is the dining car, built in 1890 http://www.queenofscots.co.uk/qosdin.html. It is the oldest dining car in the world, and was used as part of Field Marshal Haig's headquarters in France during WW1.

 

[25322]

Agree...



...and disagree.



The Tal-y-Llyn has never been closed (though it has come close a few times) and as such it is not a "preserved" railway. Although it caters largely for tourists these days, it is still an everyday working railway. The only difference between these coaches and the IOW stock that is getting a lot of attention is that they are narrow gauge and somehow not "mainline". Then again, the OP makes not such distinctions in the question. We're simply being asked what is the oldest passenger stock in regular use in the UK.

Mind you, I got ignored the first time roudnd and am not expecting anything different this time.

O L Leigh

We need a definition of regular

Daily, weekly, monthly or yearly use


The Tal-y-lyn doesnt run a train service everyday and only tends to run at weekends. The FR do have stock that dates from 1863 and usually runs at least a part service all year round.

 

[O L Leigh]

Perhaps. Mind you, as you say, what does "regular" mean. There are a number of assumptions here so far, including that stock must be somehow "mainline".

O L Leigh

 

[tbtc]

Perhaps. Mind you, as you say, what does "regular" mean. There are a number of assumptions here so far, including that stock must be somehow "mainline".

O L Leigh

I'd say "mainline" meant "ex British rail stock" or at least "running on ex British rail lines (as at privatisation)", to get round the issue of a preserved railway (like some mentioned) or a working railway (like the Isle of Wight)

 

[O L Leigh]

I know what "mainline" means. What I'm trying to understand is why folk are assuming that the OP is only interested in mainline stock, especially as there is some seriously old stock still in passenger-carrying service on other non-mainline railways.

O L Leigh