And when a passenger produces a large note for a small fare (deliberately) some guards will turn down the fare because it will knacker their float and might mean missing out on a more valuable fare, whereas other guards may make sure that they charge the person even at the expense of all of the other fares they may take, just to stop people thinking that they can travel for free by waving a fifty around.
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On-Train Ticket Checks
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CaptainHaddock
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51) Guard is having a snooze in the back cab.
The role of Guard doesn't necessarily have to involve customer service / ticket checking; some Guards are non-commercial and are not trained to check tickets at all, while others might check tickets but not be able to issue them.
Not all trains have Guards; some are operated by the driver and (depending on the TOC and potentially other factors) may or may not have a second member of staff with a role dedicated to checking/issuing tickets and/or customer service (e.g. Lumo, Southeastern High Speed, many - but not by no means all - Southern-branded GTR services, Scotrail electric trains in the Strathcylde area etc have staff dedicated for this purpose).
If they are a commercial guard then yes, something to do if they have time.
Based on my experiences, I wouldn't expect a ticket check on an XC service if you are travelling later in the afternoon or in the evening, so I am not surprised. A ticket check in the morning is more likely but by no means guaranteed. I have had no check on my most recent XC journeys and this is not uncommon. It very much depends on the route/depot, as well as time of day.
There are many occasions when people may get away with something without paying if they were so inclined but it's best not to go down that rabbit hole!
I think all West Midlands Trains guards are trained to check tickets, but they very rarely do in my experience.
Very occasionally I'll get a check on their LNR branded trains on the West Coast Main Line but it's extremely rare for that to happen; I do not travel on the local WMR branded services much but ticket checks are even rarer on those.
Don't forget their primary role is for operational purposes, not to check tickets; if there are frequent stops I wouldn't expect any ticket checking to occur.
Edsmith
Member
Some guards don't seem keen on taking cash payments at all and just advise people to pay at their destination.
That's been my experience as well at Stevenage and it just irritates people in a hurry who have a valid ticket and railcard.
blueberry11
Member
When I went to Diss from Norwich (the first stop along - 18 min), I got my ticket checked just a few minute in. As Norwich has barriers and Diss does not, I did not think it would happen, but then realised Norwich is an interchange station for Cromer/Sheringham.
No checks on return
No checks on return
Some traction isn't great for checking tickets when you have frequent stops with short intervals between , something like a 156 for example only has door control panels at extreme ends of the unit , coupled with the fact that a lot of tocs dont let guards dispatch from the front you can have difficulty getting all the way down a train and back in time to safely operate doors . Especially if someone wants to actually buy a ticket rather than just show you one . Compare a 156 to a 158 which has door control panels at every set of doors which are at the end of each carriage . Can make a guards job a lot easier .
Different tocs have different policies. But I know at some revenue figures form part of the guards performance criteria , and they are compared against an average accross their depot or company and those that are well below average will be expected to improve . That being said it takes a lot of management time and effort to go from that to disciplinary action .
That wont obviously deal with the sitautions when an otherwise frequent checker of tickets is having an off day or off trip and decided to just take it easy . But that is kind of an accepted practice in that it is something that almost all guards will do at some point for various reasons so it is reflected in every average . And generally guards managers have been guards themselves so know about it .
I know for example in days gone by if I have been feeling a like fatigue is creeping in or I might be coming down with something I would conserve my energy for safety critical duties and take it easy with the tickets walking through every now and then for customer enquiries and to check everyone is behaving . A 4 am book on soon feels like a different day when you are still working a train at 14:00
To be honest I often think of this as senisble anyway because if someone has just been abusive or threatenening to me it is human nature to still be in self preservation mode and jump to being short or make assumptions in a similar situation . Some time away is probably best to avoid another incident as well .
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To answer the question about the Cross City line in Birmingham I believe it to be more or less correct that the guards are only allowed to dispatch from the middle cab on 6 car trains - the trains are quite tight to the platform length and there's a box painted on the platform to aid them in safe door release.
That doesn't leave much time to get down the train away from the extreme ends of the route.
Some TOCs (basically Northern) are excessively prescriptive about things like dispatch positions on their trains, banning dispatch from the front etc. It would drive me nuts. I basically work in the saloon on stopping services working backwards and forwards and I am much happier being able to operate the doors from any coach.
That doesn't leave much time to get down the train away from the extreme ends of the route.
Some TOCs (basically Northern) are excessively prescriptive about things like dispatch positions on their trains, banning dispatch from the front etc. It would drive me nuts. I basically work in the saloon on stopping services working backwards and forwards and I am much happier being able to operate the doors from any coach.
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
That explains a bit of why the guard walked all the way to the back of the train instead of opening from the middle at Wallgate (they had to fit past around 20 people who'd already queued for the doors).
Although I don't really get it, wouldn't opening from the middle be better as it'd be easier to see the train is fully platformed (although that's never a problem in Wigan, they stop so far forwards)
Guards on Northern as far as I am aware can open from anywhere as long as they check the PTI before releasing doors , it is just closing and dispatch that has to be carried out between the middle and rear of the train .
Guard might have wanted to get to the back if they were being relieved though I guess .
There have been issues in the past on some routes with stuff being stolen from rear cabs by gangs of youths loitering at stations but cant see it at wigan being gated and staffed
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
Indeed they would be, guards leave the ex-Leeds trains behind in Wigan to go into the siding.
The 150/2s at GWR or TfW that have been modified with intermediate door controls are the best units for revenue. You're never far from a door control. Even with a 158 you could be 10m from one, halfway down the carriage.
I don't think that they've got a restriction on where doors can be released from, just for dispatch. Obviously though you actually need an intermediate panel to work from.
I agree it would drive me nuts too. Generally I'm in the train checking tickets on every service I work regardless of time of day. Obviously certain trains I'll weigh up and decide not to bother and opt to just walk through/dispatch from various saloon doors occasionally and keep an eye on things (generally on very drunk trains).
There are journeys where I've been unable to do retail duties for over an hour because I have been busy dealing with other things. Most recently I had a guy onboard who kept moving seats, sitting on the floor, going into the toilet, had no ticket, claimed he was travelling to X, then when it came to X wouldn't get off and wouldn't tell me where he was actually going, generally acting odd. I spent an hour trying to arrange with BTP to meet the train and remove him, which was easier said than done and then had to figure out a suitable well staffed station to arrange for assistance with the matter. In-between operating doors, battling with poor phone signal, people not answering the phone etc it took my over an hour to get it sorted!
There are plenty of other things which take priority such as unit swops (confirming information with control/platforms over which unit is going where, which unit is going forward, where passengers need to go etc then communicating said information with the punters). If the train is splitting, ensuring passengers are in the right portion and that the gangway doors are all locked up ready to go in time.
If the service is significantly delayed I tend to avoid retail duties (going through when very very late and asking for money is just asking for a smack!) And rather go through advising of delay repay, and printing out journey itinerarys for onward connections before arriving at connecting stations for those who have missed their original connection.
That said I reckon I manage to check around 90% of all passengers tickets on my trains generally.
Some trains which are busy you can end up taking most of the journey to get through half the train and don't see the front half, in that instance those in the back will have seen you constantly whereas those in the front coaches I never got to will be wondering where the lazy guard is!
That said, there are definitely a few "relaxed" guards out there, it is particularly annoying when you're travelling on an "easy" train for a day out somewhere and don't see the guard come through.
There have been times in the past when I've travelled on XC from Leamington Spa or Birmingham New Street back to Manchester and not had a ticket check all the way through the journey and found it odd, obviously the Train Manager/Guard have been busy doing other things.
I've even heard that it can be the same on Avanti and before that Virgin West Coast that people have managed to get to London Euston say from Manchester without a ticket check on board although considering how long Pendalinos are its understandable.
I've even heard that it can be the same on Avanti and before that Virgin West Coast that people have managed to get to London Euston say from Manchester without a ticket check on board although considering how long Pendalinos are its understandable.
Scotrail314209
Established Member
I have noticed on evening Avanti services heading northbound from Preston towards Glasgow and Edinburgh very rarely have a ticket check, with the Train Manager normally found in Coach C.
Yet during the day ticket checks are more common, presumably because the evening services are relatively light-loaded north of Preston.
Yet during the day ticket checks are more common, presumably because the evening services are relatively light-loaded north of Preston.
I think its also worth bearing in mind on the long distance TOC's the train managers have additionally responsibilities in relation to the catering/customer hosts it could also be that they are trying to resolve a problem in those areas as well .
Trainfan2019
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Good question. I've often wondered about ticket checking policies.
I have a smart card season ticket with separate photocard, traveling 5 days a week. 4 carriage train, not even half full. Varied range of experiences as below, photocard always shown with smartcard:
1. No sight or sound (no manual announcements) of guard.
2. Guard looks at smartcard (doesn't scan it).
3. Guard scans smartcard
4. Guard scans smartcard but the device is never able to read it (says no valid ticket) so I have to show email proof of season ticket purchase. One certain guard only.
5. Guard walks through train but doesn't ask for tickets.
6. Guard scans smartcard, looks at photocard and confirms journey start and finish points.
7. Guard looks at smartcard, says it's fine as they know me (doesn't scan it).
Out of the above, I would say point 2 is the most common experience.
I have a smart card season ticket with separate photocard, traveling 5 days a week. 4 carriage train, not even half full. Varied range of experiences as below, photocard always shown with smartcard:
1. No sight or sound (no manual announcements) of guard.
2. Guard looks at smartcard (doesn't scan it).
3. Guard scans smartcard
4. Guard scans smartcard but the device is never able to read it (says no valid ticket) so I have to show email proof of season ticket purchase. One certain guard only.
5. Guard walks through train but doesn't ask for tickets.
6. Guard scans smartcard, looks at photocard and confirms journey start and finish points.
7. Guard looks at smartcard, says it's fine as they know me (doesn't scan it).
Out of the above, I would say point 2 is the most common experience.
LickeyIncliner
Member
My recollection is that a few years ago, LNER staff were very efficient at checking tickets as soon as anyone sat down in first. In some cases I think it was catering staff making sure that no-one with a standard ticket would get even a sniff of the free coffee - which seemed fair enough. Both ticket checks and coffee now seem less reliable...
LNER caterers don't generally check tickets, train managers and revenue protection inspectors do that now. I think that came in when the Train Guard became the Train Manager under Virgin EC with the catering staff reorganisation.
EMR on the other hand is the opposite, the catering staff generally do check tickets in first and bring any issues to the attention of the train manager, which works fairly well.
Indeed so, but as there'd be a requirement to key out and move to a different panel it's very rare for a Northern Conductor to work from the front even if there's an opportunity to do so. Not that it's their fault the policy is so silly.
Whenever these threads come up, there is always seems to be a never ending list of reasons trying to justify why guards aren't checking tickets, yet they are mostly just excuses.
Whenever I've used TFW or ScotRail, ticket checks have constantly been performed after almost every station stop, do the excuses for guards not leaving the back cab not effect Wales or Scotland?
Given how eager the govt are to get rid or downgrade the guard role, surly it is in there interest to actually provide customer service and undertake revenue protection duties?
Whenever I've used TFW or ScotRail, ticket checks have constantly been performed after almost every station stop, do the excuses for guards not leaving the back cab not effect Wales or Scotland?
Given how eager the govt are to get rid or downgrade the guard role, surly it is in there interest to actually provide customer service and undertake revenue protection duties?
There's plenty of reasons, whether they're good ones depends on the circumstances I suppose. I'm pretty unflappable and remember an unfortunate occasion where my train struck someone on the line, I was half way through doing an excess and finished that off once I'd done the necessary. Other people would justifiably be in no fit state (though to avoid sounding like a jobsworth I was doing someone a favour, theyd accidentally bought a single rather than a return and I was changing it for them for a quid to save them over 20!).
Everyone is different.
It is very rare for me not to do tickets, but I'm not going to be too judgemental of others because the consequences for dropping a clanger if you do get the work priority wrong can be severe.
I do at times wish people would not act like the world is against them at the mere suggestion that sometimes the guard is being lazy - because anyone who is a guard knows very well that that is on occasion very much the case.
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I agree largely that it is silly and should be down to the individuals judgement unless there is a compelling reason why the conductor should be at a certain location to close/dispatch like platform curvature .
Again this will probably be dismissed as an excuse , but seeing a secure future for the grade and the employer valuing the grade you are in probably plays some part in motivation of those in that grade to do a good job .
Perhaps logically if the grade is at threat you should go the extra mile , but only if you reasonably thought that would make any difference .
Of course the other side of it is the management of staff in this regard can have an impact on performance as well . Different management will take different approaches towards making sure staff are doing a good job / carrying out duties . Sometimes because of well motivated management (even related to the above), sometimes because different things are agreed through different companies collective bargaining structures for management of these matters .
Having been there id largely agree that we all have those days or parts of days , some have them far more frequently than others ofc . Most guards managers having been there themselves understand this hence why the odd train not checked or day of low revenue performance is generally tolerated as long as its the exception not the norm .
I've had at least one occasion where I have made it from the street outside my local station near manchester, to the street outside Euston without encoutering a single ticket check.
If you're travelling in Standard it's relatively uncommon for the train manager to actually be able to check everyone given they have so many other duties and a Standard ticket check usually comes last. Where you do get a ticket check in Standard it's usually either revenue or the assisting train manager. Of course for those boarding at London Euston a manual ticket check usually takes place. On less busy trains where they have 30-45 minutes between stops some may get through Standard.
It would be incredibly antisocial of them to force people to stand in an enormous queue to exit the station.
They may check tickets using the ticket gates on platforms 1-3 but generally these are left open for arrivals.
This makes Virgin's policy of not installing barriers at most stations absolutely daft. The amount of fare evasion that occurs on Avanti trains (Runcorn to Liverpool and Warrington to Wigan being two examples) would more than pay for the cost of barriers, and that's before you factor in the revenue lost by other companies serving the same stations.
For short non-London journeys yes it's an inevitability. The old Virgin Trains approach was centered around onboard checks southbound by revenue and pre-boarding checks at London Euston, plus sometimes pre-boarding at Liverpool Lime Street and Glasgow Central. This has changed a little bit but as you say must be an awful lot of people getting away without paying given there's rarely any checking at all at Sandwell & Dudley, Stafford, Macclesfield, Runcorn, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western or Lancaster. Wolverhampton is gated now but hours are so poor it's making little difference. Preston and Carlisle have manual checks like Liverpool Lime Street but only occasionally.
When the Avanti franchise started RPIs were at Lime Street more often than not. I can't remember the last time I saw them now. Used to get them at Warrington too (the booking office would make a killing) but they seem to have lost interest. Northern however have started sending RPIs to Warrington BQ on a frequent basis.
In Scotland not all trains have Guards; some have ticket examiners instead; but you are quite right that the Guards up there are a lot more proactive than certain other operators.
I travelled from Stafford to Baillieston in 2019; back then I had to change twice on Avanti to reach Glasgow, and on all three trains (in first class) I was offered a first class service yet had no ticket check whatsoever. In stark contrast, a ticket inspection occured before the train doors had closed on the Scotrail train to Baillieston. Was I surprised? Not at all.
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