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Online booking without itinerary

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robbeech

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Are there any retailers that will still let you buy a ticket online without an itinerary.
I’m travelling to London tomorrow and there are no trains on a Sunday from my local station but there are on Tuesday when I return. Normally I just buy the ticket at the station as they can issue it from Whitwell even when there are no trains but I would very much like to be able to buy it online as the ticket office at Worksop (where I will start the outward journey) is closed.
 
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Watershed

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Are there any retailers that will still let you buy a ticket online without an itinerary.
I’m travelling to London tomorrow and there are no trains on a Sunday from my local station but there are on Tuesday when I return. Normally I just buy the ticket at the station as they can issue it from Whitwell even when there are no trains but I would very much like to be able to buy it online as the ticket office at Worksop (where I will start the outward journey) is closed.
Unfortunately not. It would be theoretically possible but there would be a lot of hoops to jump through for the retailer in order to pass accreditation - for what would likely be quite a small, niche market. The retailer could also end up with complaints if they sold tickets on days when there are no trains, as in your example.
 

Haywain

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Would a ticket at the same fare from Worksop give you the routeing you need?
 

APT618S

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Are there any retailers that will still let you buy a ticket online without an itinerary.
I’m travelling to London tomorrow and there are no trains on a Sunday from my local station but there are on Tuesday when I return. Normally I just buy the ticket at the station as they can issue it from Whitwell even when there are no trains but I would very much like to be able to buy it online as the ticket office at Worksop (where I will start the outward journey) is closed.
A work round should be able to done using the Southern Railway website.
Select the journey/ticket you want on a future date when trains are running.
Add this journey to your favourites.
You can then go to your favourites and select the ticket. You are then just asked for the date.*
Just follow the required collection method as per a normal purchase.
*I am assuming there is not a block on the date in question with there being no trains.
 

PeterC

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Unfortunately not. It would be theoretically possible but there would be a lot of hoops to jump through for the retailer in order to pass accreditation - for what would likely be quite a small, niche market. The retailer could also end up with complaints if they sold tickets on days when there are no trains, as in your example.
Just wanting a flexible ticket is a niche market? I suppose that does encourage us weirdos who just want an off peak day return to keep ticket offices in business
 

Watershed

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Just wanting a flexible ticket is a niche market? I suppose that does encourage us weirdos who just want an off peak day return to keep ticket offices in business
I think it's perceived as a niche market for someone to want to buy a ticket without seeing what time the trains are.
 

Haywain

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Just wanting a flexible ticket is a niche market? I suppose that does encourage us weirdos who just want an off peak day return to keep ticket offices in business
But you can simply buy a flexible ticket of the sort that you want from any website now. It's very much a niche market to want to buy a ticket to travel from a station when there are no trains running.
 

robbeech

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But you can simply buy a flexible ticket of the sort that you want from any website now. It's very much a niche market to want to buy a ticket to travel from a station when there are no trains running.
Indeed, which is why I wondered if there were any left that would allow it.

We are all sorted now anyway, I remembered Mansfield ticket office is open today so I managed to call in on my way to work and purchase a ticket from there, without any issues.
 

Birmingham

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Presumably the problem is that the ticket machine at the station at which you wish to begin your journey does not allow you to specify a different starting station. As a matter of interest, in this position, would it be permissible to pass the ticket machine (and the closed ticket office) to board the train and buy your intended ticket at your first opportunity?
 

VC00

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Presumably the problem is that the ticket machine at the station at which you wish to begin your journey does not allow you to specify a different starting station
Tradiitional TVMs on GTR allow you to select your own station, it is possible on other traditional ones but takes a bit longer
 

david1212

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IMO all online ticket purchasing sites and TVM's that have itinerary functionality should start with two options

- itinerary mode targeted at those who do not know peak / off-peak / super-off-peak times then open return / day return so they buy the correct ticket for the journey. TVM's while prioritising an immediate or soon outward journey should allow for a later time or future day.

- ticket selection mode which presumes the purchaser knows the validity of the tickets they are purchasing. Without been cumbersome there should be a screen where the purchaser confirms they understand this. Better still once the ticket(s) have been selected outline the validity e.g. off-peak start times, only valid via xyz etc.
 

Starmill

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There's a sign on Northern ticket machines, such as the ones at Worksop, that says tickets should be bought on the train at the first opportunity if the ticket machine cannot be used, as in this case, and the ticket office is closed (or there's no ticket office).

However, boarding the train without a ticket and asking to buy a ticket onboard is still likely to result in an allegation of an offence by Northern, or a demand to pay a Penalty Fare.

As such, I think that a reasonable person would, knowing the above to be true, find another means of transport rather than using the train.

Of course, the OP has the option of going to the station anyway, taking a picture of the sign precisely as it appears at the time they're travelling, and arguing their case if they're accused of trying to avoid paying.

For reference, the most recent time I used a Northern ticket machine, the wording in place was: "Everyone must have a valid ticket before boarding a train. If this ticket machine is not working, or you are having problems in obtaining your ticket, please visit the ticket office. If the ticket office is closed, or if this is a station without a ticket office, please board the train and pay at your earliest opportunity." To me this read as unclear because the first and last sentences actually contradict one another. In my view, it's likely that the customer is entitled to rely on the last sentence without the first one contradicting its meaning, though, because otherwise the notice is rendered nugatory.
But you can simply buy a flexible ticket of the sort that you want from any website now. It's very much a niche market to want to buy a ticket to travel from a station when there are no trains running.
It's certainly something which will arise infrequently. However, it will continue to arise regularly for as long as there are stations with a frequent service Monday - Saturday, and no service at all on Sundays. At the moment there are many such stations across the country, and they're likely to stay that way for the foreseeable future.

IMO all online ticket purchasing sites and TVM's that have itinerary functionality should start with two options

- itinerary mode targeted at those who do not know peak / off-peak / super-off-peak times then open return / day return so they buy the correct ticket for the journey. TVM's while prioritising an immediate or soon outward journey should allow for a later time or future day.

- ticket selection mode which presumes the purchaser knows the validity of the tickets they are purchasing. Without been cumbersome there should be a screen where the purchaser confirms they understand this. Better still once the ticket(s) have been selected outline the validity e.g. off-peak start times, only valid via xyz etc.
This would certainly be a good start. The first button could be labelled "I would like to see the available train times and prices" and the second one labelled "I already know which ticket I want". There would also need to be something making clear that Advance tickets are only available for sale through the former button though.
 
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lyndhurst25

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A work round should be able to done using the Southern Railway website.
Select the journey/ticket you want on a future date when trains are running.
Add this journey to your favourites.
You can then go to your favourites and select the ticket. You are then just asked for the date.*
Just follow the required collection method as per a normal purchase.
*I am assuming there is not a block on the date in question with there being no trains.
That is an excellent workaround. Although I have not gone all the way through with the purchases, I have had no problems getting it to add day return tickets to my cart which have destinations with no trains calling on the day in question.
 

Class800

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There's a sign on Northern ticket machines, such as the ones at Worksop, that says tickets should be bought on the train at the first opportunity if the ticket machine cannot be used, as in this case, and the ticket office is closed (or there's no ticket office).

However, boarding the train without a ticket and asking to buy a ticket onboard is still likely to result in an allegation of an offence by Northern, or a demand to pay a Penalty Fare.
Are Northern particularly bad then? If we consider a similar situation in SWR territory, I'd be 99% confident at least the Guard would be very understanding and sell whatever is needed - based on experience
 

Starmill

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Are Northern particularly bad then? If we consider a similar situation in SWR territory, I'd be 99% confident at least the Guard would be very understanding and sell whatever is needed - based on experience
If you are able to speak to a conductor, or the booking office at your destination or interchange, they are overwhelmingly likely to simply issue the ticket. For now, conductors aren't authorised collectors for the purposes of charging a Penalty Fare. However, if you meet any revenue protection staff, their approach is realistically going to be to issue a Penalty Fare in these circumstances, and say that any issues will be dealt with by the appeal panel. Obviously, the customer would have a persuasive case in the appeal, but wouldn't receive any compensation for their time if that happened (unless they were to litigate for damages, perhaps).
 

fandroid

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If you are able to speak to a conductor, or the booking office at your destination or interchange, they are overwhelmingly likely to simply issue the ticket. For now, conductors aren't authorised collectors for the purposes of charging a Penalty Fare. However, if you meet any revenue protection staff, their approach is realistically going to be to issue a Penalty Fare in these circumstances, and say that any issues will be dealt with by the appeal panel. Obviously, the customer would have a persuasive case in the appeal, but wouldn't receive any compensation for their time if that happened (unless they were to litigate for damages, perhaps).
In the example that started the thread, I doubt that the appeal case would necessarily be regarded as persuasive, as the passenger would have probably passed a functioning ticket machine at Worksop where he wanted to start the journey.
,
 

Starmill

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In the example that started the thread, I doubt that the appeal case would necessarily be regarded as persuasive, as the passenger would have probably passed a functioning ticket machine at Worksop where he wanted to start the journey.
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It certainly would be regarded as persuasive if there were a notice on the machine which used the wording in post #15. The OP would need to confirm what the notice said before deciding what to do. If no notice of what to do at all were in place, my advice would be to use the help point.

Of course the first two appeal panels cannot necessarily be relied upon to take such notices into account, and there are no guarantees with the third, but I would still describe it as very persuasive.
 

TUC

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But you can simply buy a flexible ticket of the sort that you want from any website now. It's very much a niche market to want to buy a ticket to travel from a station when there are no trains running.
But I take the OP's point. There are many examples of where:
a) you want to travel on return journey to/from A-B-C
b) there are no trains from A-B on the day you want to travel outward
c) However there are trains from B-A on your return date and:
d) It is cheaper to buy a return from A-C than it is to buy a return from B-C plus a single from B-A.

An A-C ticket in those circumstances would seem entirely reasonable.
 

andythebrave

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Roughly 50% of all my family's rail travel involves travelling either from or to a station on the Marston Vale line to or from London out on Saturday back on Sunday with a car or taxi to or from Flitwick or Leighton Buzzard on the Sunday.

Being able to specify the Vale station as an origin or destination on the Sunday would be very useful.

I understand that a prominent warning about no Sunday service would be required.
 

sot

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A work round should be able to done using the Southern Railway website.
Select the journey/ticket you want on a future date when trains are running.
Add this journey to your favourites.
You can then go to your favourites and select the ticket. You are then just asked for the date.*
Just follow the required collection method as per a normal purchase.
*I am assuming there is not a block on the date in question with there being no trains.
Admirable workaround, worked perfectly. I just hope it doesn't get 'fixed'. As other posters say there should be a very prominent "I know what I'm doing, let me buy this ticket and shut up trying to warn me otherwise" mode.

I suppose that would get around the worst part in the main, the issue of buying impossible to complete journies.

Other issues such as arguing validity for peaks surely aren't a problem as there is no itinerary to fall back on.

Claims for delay etc surely could be checked with the sale date and the journey date to ensure they are legit and the 10pm day before will surely be able to kosh down any prospective false claims.

Is there any other reasons people can think of why other TOCs or retailers will not allow an 'advanced mode'?
 

realemil

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Is there any other reasons people can think of why other TOCs or retailers will not allow an 'advanced mode'?
Too expensive to introduce with a little number of people who’d benefit from it, without there being numerous bugs / exploits / etc
 

robbeech

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Too expensive to introduce with a little number of people who’d benefit from it, without there being numerous bugs / exploits / etc
You mean too much opportunity to reduce revenue generated surely?

Yes there would be a cost involved with designing and rolling out a software update, but there could be a reduction in revenue.
In my example which started this thread :
the ticket price between Whitwell and London is the same as between Worksop and London.
Therefore buying a ticket from Worksop to London and a single from Worksop to Whitwell is an unnecessary additional cost. Lots of people might do this though (unlikely on this exact itinerary of course but there are countless others)
If i bought the combination there is absolutely no way i would get a refund on the additional cost from a retailer. It's a £3.** problem at the end of the day, but the railway don't deserve increased revenue (in this case i'd consider this almost 100% profit) as a result of their inability to provide retailing solutions.
 
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