Open Access to Fares

[robbob700]

In yesterday's Autumn statement there was a section on open access to rail fares data

"4. Rail fares data - The Government will consult in early 2012, through the Fares and Ticketing Review, on providing open access to rail fares data, giving passengers and business better information and enabling them to make the most cost-effective travel choices. DfT will work with the rail industry to ensure that full data on rail fares is made available to passengers and business. DfT will consult as part of its Fares and Ticketing Review on how the rail industry could provide this data in a way that protects passengers against potential misinterpretation of complex data on fares levels and restrictions. In addition, DfT will set out a way forward for Rail Transparency including Open Data in the forthcoming Rail Command Paper.
Releasing this data will boost the market for fare finding and comparison services such as online search engines or mobile apps. This could also include comparisons between different modes of transport. We would
expect this to result in savings for passengers and business."

 

[island]

That's not exactly hard, they just need to make Avantix downloadable.

 

[dzug2]

That's not exactly hard, they just need to make Avantix downloadable.

The hard bit is making it understandable. There's a lot (??) of fares in Avantix that are rarely if ever offered for sale.

 

[SS4]

Agreed, just put Avantix available for download (preferably as a disk image). I'd love to see it become open source or allow derivative works but that is a pipe dream

 

[theblackwatch]

That's not exactly hard, they just need to make Avantix downloadable.

And understandable to the layman - which is going to be tricky!

 

[route:oxford]

Other than for giving the heads up for a special offer...

Availability of this data, with a well written app, would mean you might as well close down this part of the forums.

 

[Intermodal]

I really think that's an exaggeration - just because it's available doesn't mean any ordinary folk are going to want to use it when someone will freely help them do it and teach them tricks

 

[SS4]

Other than for giving the heads up for a special offer...

Availability of this data, with a well written app, would mean you might as well close down this part of the forums.

You seem to be overestimating the willingness of some passengers there

 

[Greenback]

Indeed, as some passengers seem to have difficulty in locating their train, I don;t see that the same people will be able to get much out of the fares data, even with a well written app!

 

[route:oxford]

When I say a well written app...

I'm thinking of an app that would be capable of say accepting a journey of...

Oxford to Stirling going out within a 3 day window, returing in a 3 day window, identifying the cheapest or fastest or both made up of a combination of return and multiple single tickets bought from multiple suppliers as well as recommending the purchase of a railcard where appropriate.

 

[SS4]

I can't see much changing for the average passenger in much the same way not that much changed when the routeing guide was made widely available (ie: online). Normal passengers will put their details into NRES in much the same way they do now.

When I say a well written app...

I'm thinking of an app that would be capable of say accepting a journey of...

Oxford to Stirling going out within a 3 day window, returing in a 3 day window, identifying the cheapest or fastest or both made up of a combination of return and multiple single tickets bought from multiple suppliers as well as recommending the purchase of a railcard where appropriate.

That's going to be one heck of a program let alone an app. I'd love to see such an app or even a program (especially native to Linux is anyone is getting ideas ) though.

 

[embers25]

"potential misinterpretation of complex data on fares levels and restrictions" made me laugh as we have simpler fares and ticketing and so how can anything be complex...are the government acknowledging the complete abject failure of simpler fares? Also when will ATOC be held accountable for their selective ignoring of the routeing guide whenever it suits?

 

[SickyNicky]

When I say a well written app...

I'm thinking of an app that would be capable of say accepting a journey of...

Oxford to Stirling going out within a 3 day window, returing in a 3 day window, identifying the cheapest or fastest or both made up of a combination of return and multiple single tickets bought from multiple suppliers as well as recommending the purchase of a railcard where appropriate.

For this to work, we would also need access to live data on advance ticket availability - can't see that happening anytime soon.

 

[route:oxford]

For this to work, we would also need access to live data on advance ticket availability - can't see that happening anytime soon.

I'm not sure if it could be honesty described as "full data on rail fares...made available to passengers and business" if it didn't include live data.

ATOC may need to plan considerable upgrades to their servers if a search engine were to engage in a intensive search for every potential route made up of single and return fares. The journey I previously suggested between Oxford and Stirling is probably over 10,000 enquiries for potential routes and fares.

 

[SickyNicky]

I'm not sure if it could be honesty described as "full data on rail fares...made available to passengers and business" if it didn't include live data.

ATOC may need to plan considerable upgrades to their servers if a search engine were to engage in a intensive search for every potential route made up of single and return fares. The journey I previously suggested between Oxford and Stirling is probably over 10,000 enquiries for potential routes and fares.

I would expect the data feed to take the form of a fares database download rather than a live query to some server somewhere, for the reasons you suggest. A live system would simply be too slow for the number of queries involved (given average internet latency times).

 

[Mike@Raileasy]

I'm not sure if it could be honesty described as "full data on rail fares...made available to passengers and business" if it didn't include live data.

ATOC may need to plan considerable upgrades to their servers if a search engine were to engage in a intensive search for every potential route made up of single and return fares. The journey I previously suggested between Oxford and Stirling is probably over 10,000 enquiries for potential routes and fares.

Raileasy has an API which it is happy to make available to people who want to create rail apps. It provides access to timetables and fares, the NRS, Lennon and the CTR database. Unfortunately it doesn't have live data which I agree should be in the public domain.

RSP would never allow a search over 3 days like flight search engines, it would be too much load on the NRS. Their official number of searches is 4/5 services each way.

 

[SickyNicky]

Raileasy has an API which it is happy to make available to people who want to create rail apps. It provides access to timetables and fares, the NRS, Lennon and the CTR database. Unfortunately it doesn't have live data which I agree should be in the public domain.

Hi Mike, and welcome to the forums.

I would be very interested in taking a look at your API if I may.

RSP would never allow a search over 3 days like flight search engines, it would be too much load on the NRS. Their official number of searches is 4/5 services each way.

Indeed. And the problem is that to construct a really useful tool, you need to look at many possible journeys (including split journeys) and compare the fares.

 

[Mike@Raileasy]

In yesterday's Autumn statement there was a section on open access to rail fares data

"4. Rail fares data - The Government will consult in early 2012, through the Fares and Ticketing Review, on providing open access to rail fares data, giving passengers and business better information and enabling them to make the most cost-effective travel choices. DfT will work with the rail industry to ensure that full data on rail fares is made available to passengers and business. DfT will consult as part of its Fares and Ticketing Review on how the rail industry could provide this data in a way that protects passengers against potential misinterpretation of complex data on fares levels and restrictions. In addition, DfT will set out a way forward for Rail Transparency including Open Data in the forthcoming Rail Command Paper.
Releasing this data will boost the market for fare finding and comparison services such as online search engines or mobile apps. This could also include comparisons between different modes of transport. We would
expect this to result in savings for passengers and business."

The idea that "releasing this data will boost the market for fare finding and comparison services such as online search engines or mobile apps" is great in theory but people who create these "search engines or mobile apps" presumably will want to get some return from their investment. Or does the Govt expect people to work and create sites/apps for nothing now? The DfT should also be looking at the commercial realities of third parties retailing train tickets. The TOCs only allowing certain discounted fares to be sold on their web sites (as shown in the "special online offers" thread) is just one example of the difficulties faced by anyone retailing train tickets or thinking about it. Raileasy believes consumers should have equal access to these special fares wherever they choose to book.
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Hi Mike, and welcome to the forums.

I would be very interested in taking a look at your API if I may.



Indeed. And the problem is that to construct a really useful tool, you need to look at many possible journeys (including split journeys) and compare the fares.

Hi,

Sure, if you mail me at mikerichardsonATraileasyDOTcoDOTuk I can organise you access. Apologies if posting an email address doesn't work, as you say I'm new to your forum.

On another note, split ticketing really interests me. One of our API users is working on this and we've done something that will find these with walk on fares. As I'm sure you know, it's a bit of a "hot potato" with ATOC. The last thing I heard was that Theresa Villiers is supposed to be coming to a decision whether to change the rules so that it won't be allowed if the train only stops where you are splitting, you'll have to get off.:cry:

 

[SickyNicky]

On another note, split ticketing really interests me. One of our API users is working on this and we've done something that will find these with walk on fares. As I'm sure you know, it's a bit of a "hot potato" with ATOC. The last thing I heard was that Theresa Villiers is supposed to be coming to a decision whether to change the rules so that it won't be allowed if the train only stops where you are splitting, you'll have to get off.:cry:

It rather interests most of us on here, I think!

I can't see how they could reasonably stop split tickets from being used on services that stop there. Do they really expect people to get off the train then get back on again?

 

[MikeWh]

It rather interests most of us on here, I think!

I can't see how they could reasonably stop split tickets from being used on services that stop there. Do they really expect people to get off the train then get back on again?

Indeed. They could see their punctuality figures fall through the floor if more and more people filed off and on trains at intermediate stops. To say nothing of the attention that this would draw to the process from other passengers who might then decide to join in.

 

[Greenback]

It is a ridiculous idea that would be completely unworkable. Interestingly, there has been quite a few rumours flying about over the last few months that this might happen. I suspect that these whispers are emanating from within the industry, maybe in an attempt to pave the way for some other change in the T&C's?

 

[sheff1]

If it were to happen, then I would love to see a flash mob style event at a key station. 100s of people, complete with luggage, buggies etc getting out of one door and walking down the platform to reboard at the next. Ideal for the TV cameras !

 

[SickyNicky]

I have a friend who's a wheelchair user and is itching to give it a go

 

[Mike@Raileasy]

Sorry to put a damper on your creative ideas but unfortunately it's not just getting off the train, the proposal in front of Theresa Villiers is that you'll have to change trains. http://www.railforums.co.uk/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif

 

[MikeWh]

Sorry to put a damper on your creative ideas but unfortunately it's not just getting off the train, the proposal in front of Theresa Villiers is that you'll have to change trains.

Then I think this calls for a concerted effort from a large group to choose a station where there is an exit directly from the platform. One by one each person goes to the gate, deposits their old ticket in full view of the cameras, takes one step outside the station then re-enters clutching the next ticket. As long as the first one gets back to the train before the last one finishes getting off it should delay things nicely. I can see the headlines now ... passenger changes mind about break of journey and is issued penalty fare when in posession of valid train ticket.

 

[Mike@Raileasy]

It is a ridiculous idea that would be completely unworkable. Interestingly, there has been quite a few rumours flying about over the last few months that this might happen. I suspect that these whispers are emanating from within the industry, maybe in an attempt to pave the way for some other change in the T&C's?

As part of the Govt's "cutting red tape" initiative they are looking at the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. The Which web site is canvassing for views on this so it's worth a visit and commenting. They do have a bit of clout. I like them because they like split ticketing and they have a good consumer tool about claiming refunds.

The Govt is supposed to be making the industry conduct another "fare review", I hope as part of this the Govt says this is your chance to remove the "anomalies" that lead to split ticketing savings and don't just outlaw it except if you change trains.

If it's not outlawed we're definitely going to offer it on our web site or in an app.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

[Re Split Tickets]

. . . it's a bit of a "hot potato" with ATOC. The last thing I heard was that Theresa Villiers is supposed to be coming to a decision whether to change the rules so that it won't be allowed if the train only stops where you are splitting, you'll have to get off.

I can imagine that the industry does have concerns about 'split ticketing', but I'm not remotely persuaded that the response would be to change the Conditions (or even less likely that such a passenger 'will be required' to step off a train where tickets connect.

Surely its much more likely that a radical fares review which removed many of the price differentials that currently make 'splitting' into a 'saving' would be effective?
Not any easy review to implement where paths are shared by different Operators, but not an innappropriate aspiration either.

 

[bb21]

I am struggling to think how split-ticketing can be effectively banned. Is the government saying that if I step off the train and finish my journey, and then reboards the same train again with another valid ticket, I will risk prosecution? Unplausible at the least I have to say.

 

[RJ]

As I'm sure you know, it's a bit of a "hot potato" with ATOC. The last thing I heard was that Theresa Villiers is supposed to be coming to a decision whether to change the rules so that it won't be allowed if the train only stops where you are splitting, you'll have to get off.:cry:

Sorry to put a damper on your creative ideas but unfortunately it's not just getting off the train, the proposal in front of Theresa Villiers is that you'll have to change trains.

Can you provide a veritable source for this?

 

[Mike@Raileasy]

I went to a meeting with the ORR about it and was told that there. If you look on the ORR web site, they say something about doing a review of split ticketing. I asked to see that and was asked to go in and see them and they gave me the status including that it was now with TV.
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Sorry to be a techno dummy but I got a private message about going to one of your meals and I can't for the life of me work out how to respond. We're based in London so Dec 19 would be good for me.