Operations of the Waterloo-Exeter 50s (and loco diagramming in general)

[nw1]

Yes, correct, but a different type of class 171 from the one which came 14 years later. The corresponding Kent Coast electric units would have been class 471.

Might have looked a little like this
https://www.flickr.com/photos/103688802@N02/26090441157

Taken from https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:British_Rail_Class_471

Ah ok, thanks. Yes, I was aware of the 471, it was going to be the NSE replacement for the 42x stock, but not the 171. Would 171s have potentially run other similar routes, such as Marylebone-Birmingham or Paddington-Worcester?

Just think, in the parallel non-privatised universe and its 471s (and perhaps 472s with buffets, high-density 473s, and two-car 474s too), the entire electrified "Southern Region" area of NSE could, to this day, be running with a fleet of compatible EMU stock, just like in the old days. And, if that mockup was accurate, we could still have the good old headcodes!

NSE seemed to be going places, privatisation seemed to be one of those things (and by no means the only one) where the old adage "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" was broken by the UK government.

 

[QJ]

50048 worked the 0704 Salisbury UP, but was terminated Surbiton. Too busy beyond that to note anything else that day!

Thanks Big Jumby. I can understand why you would have been busy that day and for days afterwards. I was on my way to work at Waterloo when the sad events unfolded.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Ah ok, thanks. Yes, I was aware of the 471, it was going to be the NSE replacement for the 42x stock, but not the 171. Would 171s have potentially run other similar routes, such as Marylebone-Birmingham or Paddington-Worcester?

Just think, in the parallel non-privatised universe and its 471s (and perhaps 472s with buffets, high-density 473s, and two-car 474s too), the entire electrified "Southern Region" area of NSE could, to this day, be running with a fleet of compatible EMU stock, just like in the old days. And, if that mockup was accurate, we could still have the good old headcodes!

NSE seemed to be going places, privatisation seemed to be one of those things (and by no means the only one) where the old adage "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" was broken by the UK government.

No, the 171 sets were just for the SW. Marylebone-Birmingham and Paddington-Worcester were not NSE routes in their entirety and so the 165 and 166 sets would suffice for then planned workings out of Marylebone and Paddington. The 165 and 166 fleet was going to larger too.

The 471 fleet was supposed to be 508 vehicles by the end of the 1994/5 year - just 471, no variants. It would have been still in build so the eventual total would have been much more than that.

Privatisation didn’t end these plans - it was the 1990 economic slowdown that put pressure on BR’s finances and everyone had to cut back on future plans. It wasn’t nearly as bad as the 1980 BR financial crisis but it wasn’t great.

 

[nw1]

No, the 171 sets were just for the SW. Marylebone-Birmingham and Paddington-Worcester were not NSE routes in their entirety and so the 165 and 166 sets would suffice for then planned workings out of Marylebone and Paddington. The 165 and 166 fleet was going to larger too.

Ah ok, thanks. And the 6 additional 165 vehicles (presumably 3 2-car 165 units), would these have worked local Southampton-Salisbury shuttles? Or anything else? Presumably a two-hourly Southampton-Salisbury shuttle would have only needed one unit. (In the event, Regional Railways took over the Dunbridge and Dean provision with irregularly-spaced Southampton-Bristol services).

Would 165s and 171s have been compatible, so the 165s could have enhanced some services on the Exeter route at peak times?

 

[Helvellyn]

Ah ok, thanks. And the 6 additional 165 vehicles (presumably 3 2-car 165 units), would these have worked local Southampton-Salisbury shuttles? Or anything else? Presumably a two-hourly Southampton-Salisbury shuttle would have only needed one unit. (In the event, Regional Railways took over the Dunbridge and Dean provision with irregularly-spaced Southampton-Bristol services).

Would 165s and 171s have been compatible, so the 165s could have enhanced some services on the Exeter route at peak times?

I thought they were planned for Basingstoke-Reading, which at the time was a Wessex route operated by Thumpers? In the end the early 1990s cutbacks saw existing Thames units work the route.

 

[Clarence Yard]

At one time, the 165 fleet was destined to operate all remaining NSE DMU operations, even the Sudbury and Bedford-Bletchley but that idea was being cut back before the 1990 Railplan process started.

The original idea was that the NSE 165 fleet would be maintained at both Aylesbury and Reading and the 166 and 171 fleet would be maintained at Old Oak Common, in the HST shed. The carriage lift shop at Old Oak Common would have provided the necessary facilities for Level 5 work.

 

[Taunton]

Given the hourly 33-hauled Portsmouth-Bristol/Cardiff appeared to be 6-car (I never really saw these; I'm going off the 1981 CWN), replacing an hourly 6-car service with an hourly 2-car was a huge drop in capacity, particularly for the passenger boom in the mid-to-late 90s. If they wanted a like-for-like replacement, arguably they should have used 3 two-car 158s coupled together!

That route really has gone up and down with formations. What were once Hymek-hauled full size trains became (late 1970s?) just Southern 3-car local service Thumper DEMUs, 5-across seating and all, which always looked (and sounded) bizarre at Bristol TM etc. Then they reverted to the full size Class 33 trains described, then back to minimalist new dmus.

 

[Dai Corner]

That route really has gone up and down with formations. What were once Hymek-hauled full size trains became (late 1970s?) just Southern 3-car local service Thumper DEMUs, 5-across seating and all, which always looked (and sounded) bizarre at Bristol TM etc. Then they reverted to the full size Class 33 trains described, then back to minimalist new dmus.

The Cl 33 era saw Southern locos far from home in places like Crewe and Carmarthen IIRC.

 

[nw1]

The Cl 33 era saw Southern locos far from home in places like Crewe and Carmarthen IIRC.

I've always wondered about the 33-hauled Crewe-Cardiff services. Presumably they interworked with Cardiff-Portsmouth.

I take it Crewe-Cardiff didn't have a headcode, though.

I do remember from the timetable that occasional services on the Portsmouth-Bristol/Cardiff axis extended beyond the normal termination points to places such as Weston-super-Mare and Swansea. ISTR the 1510 ex-Portsmouth was a Weston service, presumably because it would arrive at Bristol during the peak.

 

[jfollows]

I take it Crewe-Cardiff didn't have a headcode, though.

https://derbysulzers.com/crewecardiff.html shows two blanks (page down to get to the 33s which it says started in 1981 and were replaced by 37s in 1986).

 

[Dai Corner]

I've always wondered about the 33-hauled Crewe-Cardiff services. Presumably they interworked with Cardiff-Portsmouth.

I take it Crewe-Cardiff didn't have a headcode, though.

I do remember from the timetable that occasional services on the Portsmouth-Bristol/Cardiff axis extended beyond the normal termination points to places such as Weston-super-Mare and Swansea. ISTR the 1510 ex-Portsmouth was a Weston service, presumably because it would arrive at Bristol during the peak.

I should have remembered the Weston-super-Mare/Taunton locals as I commuted on them in the 1980s. We could have anything from a DMU, through 31s, 33s, 45s, 47s and 50s to HSTs. I wish I'd kept records.

 

[Gloster]

That route really has gone up and down with formations. What were once Hymek-hauled full size trains became (late 1970s?) just Southern 3-car local service Thumper DEMUs, 5-across seating and all, which always looked (and sounded) bizarre at Bristol TM etc. Then they reverted to the full size Class 33 trains described, then back to minimalist new dmus.

I think that the Southern DEMUs took over in 1973, although they may have been interworking with Western DMUs from the following year. They handed over to Class 31 in 1977 (I think), but in 1980 these were replaced by Class 33 cascaded from the Exeters.

 

[randyrippley]

I've always wondered about the 33-hauled Crewe-Cardiff services. Presumably they interworked with Cardiff-Portsmouth.

The locos did, not normally the coaches

 

[nw1]

I should have remembered the Weston-super-Mare/Taunton locals as I commuted on them in the 1980s. We could have anything from a DMU, through 31s, 33s, 45s, 47s and 50s to HSTs. I wish I'd kept records.

Indeed, to give examples from 1982, the peak consisted, amongst other services, of departures from Bristol at 1644 (from Paddington, to Plymouth, thus presumably HST) and at 1712 (from Manchester Piccadilly, thus presumably hauled stock; this one called at all stations, including Bedminster and Parson Street, despite being an IC service from some considerable distance away!)

There was no through service from Portsmouth that year so that must have come subsequently (but still in the 33 era).

 

[Magdalia]

I've always wondered about the 33-hauled Crewe-Cardiff services. Presumably they interworked with Cardiff-Portsmouth.

Yes, usually on 3 day cycles to get the locos back to Eastleigh for maintenance.

I think that the Southern DEMUs took over in 1973, although they may have been interworking with Western DMUs from the following year. They handed over to Class 31 in 1977 (I think), but in 1980 these were replaced by Class 33 cascaded from the Exeters.

That's correct.

I take it Crewe-Cardiff didn't have a headcode, though.

They did have headcodes. In the 1970s the trains were class 2 with route headcodes 2M67 for Cardiff-Crewe and 2V67 for Crewe-Cardiff.

By the time the 1Hxx books start with 1H80, the trains are class 1 with individual headcodes.

Getting back to Waterloo-Exeter, these all had headcodes even though the class 33s only displayed 62 when operating on them.

 

[Gloster]

I take it Crewe-Cardiff didn't have a headcode, though.

All trains had and have a headcode. Throughout the system the four character system (1B34) was used, including on the Southern Region within the railway’s operating department, which identified the specific train (*). For public and some staff use on the SR you had the two character display on the front of the train that indicated the route and stopping pattern (62: Waterloo, Woking or Basingstoke-Salisbury, Yeovil Junction or Exeter St David’s semi-fast via Andover). These latter were only used by the SR for trains within, to and from the SR: any train wholly within another region didn’t get issued with one, even if it had a 33 or 73 on the front.

* A few lines which were ’shut in‘ used a single headcode for the shuttle: 2B57 for all Liskeard-Looe and v.v. workings.

 

[Cowley]

Wasn’t the Portsmouth - Cardiff route code 89 where it came to two character displays on 33s?

In later years they were usually just displaying the two white dashes though from what I remember.

 

[75A]

All trains had and have a headcode. Throughout the system the four character system (1B34) was used, including on the Southern Region within the railway’s operating department, which identified the specific train (*). For public and some staff use on the SR you had the two character display on the front of the train that indicated the route and stopping pattern (62: Waterloo, Woking or Basingstoke-Salisbury, Yeovil Junction or Exeter St David’s semi-fast via Andover). These latter were only used by the SR for trains within, to and from the SR: any train wholly within another region didn’t get issued with one, even if it had a 33 or 73 on the front.

* A few lines which were ’shut in‘ used a single headcode for the shuttle: 2B57 for all Liskeard-Looe and v.v. workings.

Each division on the Southern had it's own head codes, so for example 62 on the Central was a Brighton / Portsmouth Harbour 'stopper' or a Victoria / Newhaven Harbour or Seaford via Redhill.
On the South Eastern 62 was a Charing Cross / Gillingham or Ramsgate via Lewisham & Erith or Victoria / St Mary Cray or Swanley via Catford.
These we in use in 1981, but in previous years they would have been different

For more info, try the Southern Railway email group:

"Southern" EMU and DEMU Headcodes

.

Wasn’t the Portsmouth - Cardiff route code 89 where it came to two character displays on 33s?

In later years they were usually just displaying the two white dashes though from what I remember.

89 was also used on Waterloo - Waterloo (via Brentford and Richmond

 

[Cowley]

89 was also used on Waterloo - Waterloo (via Brentford and Richmond

Ah of course. I think I remember seeing it on EMUs now that you say it @75A.

 

[paul1609]

Actually the original plan was to have the cl.171 units all in service by May 1992. 60 vehicles were supposed to be delivered by March 1992 and all 78 should have been delivered by May 1992. When the 1990 Railplan process started, that was still the plan. Wessex were also going to have 6 additional cl.165/1 vehicles for local services.

Indeed but by 1989/90 the trains hadn't even been fully specified let alone ordered. There is absolutely no way they'd have been in passenger service by 1992.
Replacement of the class 207/9 were also supposed to be on the NSE agenda at the same time but they didn't get replaced till the early 2000s despite the same chronic reliability problems.

 

[JonathanH]

Replacement of the class 207/9 were also supposed to be on the NSE agenda at the same time but they didn't get replaced till the early 2000s despite the same chronic reliability problems.

That is more to do with inertia on electrification than limitations on acquisition of diesel units. NSE would have electrified the remaining diesel routes in the South East part of the Southern Region with stock displaced when the 471s were introduced.

 

[nw1]

That is more to do with inertia on electrification than limitations on acquisition of diesel units. NSE would have electrified the remaining diesel routes in the South East part of the Southern Region with stock displaced when the 471s were introduced.

Going way OT I do wonder why Uckfield for example wasn't electrified at the same time as East Grinstead. It would have avoided an awkward-to-operate "diesel island" and could have been relatively efficiently operated by detaching an Uckfield portion off one of the East Grinstead services (as happened pre-electrification). Presumably there were insufficient EMUs available in 1987 to operate Uckfield, though with the introduction of 319s in May 1988 I can see it might have been easier. The 319s released a number of CIGs from a former hourly London Bridge-Brighton service, for example, probably enough to provide for Uckfield.

 

[30907]

Going way OT I do wonder why Uckfield for example wasn't electrified at the same time as East Grinstead. It would have avoided an awkward-to-operate "diesel island" and could have been relatively efficiently operated by detaching an Uckfield portion off one of the East Grinstead services (as happened pre-electrification). Presumably there were insufficient EMUs available in 1987 to operate Uckfield, though with the introduction of 319s in May 1988 I can see it might have been easier. The 319s released a number of CIGs from a former hourly London Bridge-Brighton service, for example, probably enough to provide for Uckfield.

Money. Plus the 3-Ds/207s weren't life-expired.

 

[nw1]

Money. Plus the 3-Ds/207s weren't life-expired.

Just seems odd to me to leave a "diesel island", which is operationally difficult.

To me the natural thing would have been, if you're going to electrify part of that small sub-network, you may as well electrify the lot. Brings in operational efficiency, for one thing - you can use the same pool of EMUs for Uckfield as you can for all the other mainline services out of Victoria and London Bridge.

 

[Taunton]

Going way OT I do wonder why Uckfield for example wasn't electrified at the same time as East Grinstead. It would have avoided an awkward-to-operate "diesel island" and could have been relatively efficiently operated by detaching an Uckfield portion off one of the East Grinstead services (as happened pre-electrification).

It does seem odd, but I seem to recall an article at the time that the East Grinstead project was able to be done with the minimum of substations and high-voltage feeders, whereas going on to Uckfield needed a much larger project. East Grinstead, and the intermediate points up to Croydon, also had more traffic than the Uckfield line.

 

[nw1]

It does seem odd, but I seem to recall an article at the time that the East Grinstead project was able to be done with the minimum of substations and high-voltage feeders, whereas going on to Uckfield needed a much larger project.

Ah ok, that makes sense.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Going way OT I do wonder why Uckfield for example wasn't electrified at the same time as East Grinstead. It would have avoided an awkward-to-operate "diesel island" and could have been relatively efficiently operated by detaching an Uckfield portion off one of the East Grinstead services (as happened pre-electrification). Presumably there were insufficient EMUs available in 1987 to operate Uckfield, though with the introduction of 319s in May 1988 I can see it might have been easier. The 319s released a number of CIGs from a former hourly London Bridge-Brighton service, for example, probably enough to provide for Uckfield.

Around the time BR had completed the asbestos stripping of some 3D/3H units and not wanting to waste this expenditure only East Grinstead was completed and this allowed withdrawal of the remaining asbestos contaminated units.

The schemes around this time such as Weymouth electrification was very much to do with removing asbestos fitted rolling stock on the network rather than being life expired (remember some of the REPs were very late build and far from life expired).

 

[AY1975]

That view of the NSE liveried 50 departing light engine is from the 'new' platform 12 (ie part of the old cab road, note the bollards on the left), these were new and mark the line of the side of the 'Boots' store that is accessible directly to the right when exiting todays platform 12 barrier gate line.
As a planner based at Waterloo during the 80/90's I have a comprehensive, albeit amateur collection of images I took throughout that period that I have now donated to a certain group who have both Waterloo and the L&SWR in general at the heart of their interests, and in return a number of their published works they have produced about Waterloo have given me many hours of interest and learning about (in a times past sense) a station which in my time, I had a small, but perhaps pivotal part to play - as in platforming/stock diagramming - and I will add, I was just one of a number of planners so involved, many of whom I still know, and others, sadly, are no longer with us.

I would guess that this means that for a short period in the early 1990s, between the completion of the "new" Platforms 12 and 13 on the site of the old cab road and the start of work on the Eurostar terminal, Waterloo had 23 platforms. As I recall the platforms in the Windsor Lines part of the station, where the Eurostar terminal was built, were numbered 16-21, in which case they presumably became 18-23 once the "new" Platforms 12 and 13 were opened.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

319s won’t fit through Oxted tunnel (which I believe to be the limiting factor for the third rail lines south of London).

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I would guess that this means that for a short period in the early 1990s, between the completion of the "new" Platforms 12 and 13 on the site of the old cab road and the start of work on the Eurostar terminal, Waterloo had 23 platforms

Not so. That scenario would have been a planners dream (capacity wise!). The station from the old cab road upwards (platform number wise) was in continual flux throughout from sometime in 1989 onwards, as there was much below track level rebuilding work to do, to support the new International platforms. That photo of the 50 in the 'new' platform 13 was taken in July 1990, and others I took the same day on the Windsor side show platforms 16-18 all long since out of use, the first two of these already having huge holes dug down to the arches below, and JCB diggers busy. Part of the old 1885 North station roof had already been demolished by that time as well to allow said work to take place.
Regrettably I no longer have any of the amended workings that we issued during those times, so can not quote exact time lines as to when each platform was taken out of use in relation to others, but as soon as the 'new' p12 & p13 were commissioned the original plats 12-15 could be renumbered to 14-17. At that time the old Windsor side only had three platforms left for trains at that point, numbers 19-21. Should be added that there were also track and platform-end re alignment works taking place at the same time, most notably the country end of the old p15 (new p17). Overall, the useable station capacity was I believe reduced throughout the works to some degree.