Operator specific tickets - how long will they remain available?

[Kite159]

Set Atherstone as the via station

mods note - split from this thread

The problem with that is at the Crewe end, heading towards Manchester there is normally an Avanti which runs between the LNR train arriving and TfW departing so some sites based on speed will use that Avanti.

Shame it's jumped up by nearly £4, but still £39 is a decent price for a moderately flexible ticket. It could be worse, the DfT could have axed it

 

[Krokodil]

It could be worse, the DfT could have axed it

They are certainly thinking about simplification but it'll take years.

 

[JonathanH]

They are certainly thinking about simplification but it'll take years.

or 'a flick of a switch'. How much consultation is needed to remove good value fares?

 

[Krokodil]

The sheer scale and complexity of the ticketing system will mean that it'll take years to go through and sort out the ORCATS-raiders from the fares which actually are worth keeping as a separate option from the Any Permitted. I've certainly got my own pet list of TOC-specific fares I'd love to abolish (including a few tickets that passengers buy from TVMs when there's not actually a valid connection you can use it on).

 

[plugwash]

After you eliminate the fares that are priced within say 5% of the any permitted fare, which I imagine could be just deleted with little fuss how many TOC-specific non-advance fares are left?

 

[JonathanH]

After you eliminate the fares that are priced within say 5% of the any permitted fare, which I imagine could be just deleted with little fuss how many TOC-specific non-advance fares are left?

Mainly stuff on the Brighton line and the LNR fares that are the topic of this thread.

 

[Krokodil]

After you eliminate the fares that are priced within say 5% of the any permitted fare, which I imagine could be just deleted with little fuss how many TOC-specific non-advance fares are left?

The ones I want rid of are those where the service frequency offered by said operator is so infrequent (or unreliable) that passengers often end up boarding another operator's service and getting stung.

Avanti, I'm looking at you on certain routes.

 

[plugwash]

Sure, my question was after eliminating the most obvious raids how many TOC-specific flexible fares are left which would need a strategic descision on whether it was appropriate to retain them? are we talking tens? hundreds? thousands? more?

There are around 6 million origin/destination pairs on the railway, but afaict the vast majority of them do not offer TOC specific fares.

 

[Kite159]

The ones I want rid of are those where the service frequency offered by said operator is so infrequent (or unreliable) that passengers often end up boarding another operator's service and getting stung.

Avanti, I'm looking at you on certain routes.

Agreed, especially the "Avanti only" tickets, which are sometimes 10p less than the "any permitted" fares. I.e. Crewe - Stafford & Crewe - Liverpool.

Or even the multiple "TOC only" tickets between Stockport & Manchester Piccadilly, how many passengers simply buy the "TfW only" fare [or TPE only, depending which is cheaper] and jump on whatever first train pops up, is there still a "TfW only" fare between Manchester Piccadilly & Oxford Road?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it's likely it'll disappear for local journeys (to enable contactless) but that it'll become the only option for long distance journeys (which in time will probably move to Advance only, e-ticket only).

(Note: journeys, not TOCs, before this heads down the "but we can't segregate in the UK" line)

 

[Krokodil]

Or even the multiple "TOC only" tickets between Stockport & Manchester Piccadilly, how many passengers simply buy the "TfW only" fare [or TPE only, depending which is cheaper] and jump on whatever first train pops up, is there still a "TfW only" fare between Manchester Piccadilly & Oxford Road?

Manchester Stns - Manchester Airport has got to be the worst route for that. Three operators, frequent services ("No, this isn't the 10:00, this is the 09:55 which is running two minutes late") and a large proportion of the passengers are either infrequent travellers or in many cases have little English. A ticket to MIA should be a ticket to MIA. They need to abolish all TOC-specific tickets on the route and Northern need to stop selling Advances for such short journeys.

 

[Kite159]

I think it's likely it'll disappear for local journeys (to enable contactless) but that it'll become the only option for long distance journeys (which in time will probably move to Advance only, e-ticket only).

(Note: journeys, not TOCs, before this heads down the "but we can't segregate in the UK" line)

Which will simply kill off long distance journeys.
Using LNR for example with their cheaper tickets for Birmingham/Crewe which offer a big discount over the any permitted fares for Avanti due to being slower.
Get rid of the LNR only fares and push people towards booked train only will make the rail system even more expensive, especially on days where events are on (Christmas markets, sports etc where advances will be expensive)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which will simply kill off long distance journeys.

No, it won't.

As a user of walk-up tickets I don't like it, but most long distance fares sold are Advances by a very significant margin, at least according to our resident (ex-)LNER people.

Using LNR for example with their cheaper tickets for Birmingham/Crewe which offer a big discount over the any permitted fares for Avanti due to being slower.
Get rid of the LNR only fares and push people towards booked train only will make the rail system even more expensive, especially on days where events are on (Christmas markets, sports etc where advances will be expensive)

Those are long distance journeys. Local journey contactless schemes are likely to be smaller, i.e. PTE areas and hinterland.

 

[miklcct]

The Thameslink / Great Northern only London - Peterborough Super Off-Peak Day Return gives such a large discount compared to the any permitted ticket that I don't want to see it disappears.

 

[yorkie]

In my area, York to Leeds "Northern Only" fares are set at a rate that is about what one might reasonably expect the inter available fare to be:

OFF-PEAK R SVR​	Route NORTHERN ONLY​	Validity AS ADVERTISED Restrictions B3 OFF-PEAK​	Adult £17.30​	Child £8.65​	◊​
​ ​ Outward:​ VALID AFTER 0859 MON-FRI​ Return:​ BY ANY TRAIN​ Fare Setter: NORTHERN​
ANYTIME DAY R SDR​	Route NORTHERN ONLY​	Validity ON DATE SHOWN​	Adult £16.50​	Child £8.25​	◊​
​ ​ Fare Setter: NORTHERN​
OFF-PEAK DAY R CDR​	Route NORTHERN ONLY​	Validity SEE RESTRICTNS Restrictions B1 OFF-PEAK​	Adult £13.00​	Child £6.50​	◊​
​ ​ Outward & Return:​ VALID AFTER 0929 MON-FRI​ Fare Setter: NORTHERN​

Unbelievably the inter-available fares are even higher than this and are at levels which are completely ludicrous.

Therefore, I would only endorse the removal of the Northern only fares if the inter-available fares were reduced to those levels.

The same principle applies with York to Newcastle (TPE Only):

ANYTIME SHORT R SHR​	Route TPE ONLY​	Validity 1DYOUT 1MTHRTN​	Adult £61.80​	Child £30.90​	◊​
​ ​ Fare Setter: TRANSPENNINE EXPRESS​
​
ANYTIME DAY R SDR​	Route TPE ONLY​	Validity ON DATE SHOWN​	Adult £48.70​	Child £24.35​	◊​
​ ​ Fare Setter: TRANSPENNINE EXPRESS​
OFF-PEAK R SVR​	Route TPE ONLY​	Validity AS ADVERTISED Restrictions TB NOT VALID BEFORE 0900 MON-FRI​	Adult £36.80​	Child £18.40​	◊​
​ ​ Outward & Return:​ NOT VALID BEFORE 0900 MONDAY-FRIDAY.​ Fare Setter: TRANSPENNINE EXPRESS​
OFF-PEAK DAY R CDR​	Route TPE ONLY​	Validity SEE RESTRICTNS Restrictions I1 NOT VALID BEFORE 0930​	Adult £33.40​	Child £16.70​	◊​
​ ​ Outward & Return:​ VALID AFTER 0929 MON-FRI​ Fare Setter: TRANSPENNINE EXPRESS​

Again, these TPE Only fares are quite pricey and are around the maximum value that the inter-available fare should be.

And yet the inter-available fares are at absolutely insanely high levels; again I would only support the abolishment of the TPE only fares if the 'Any Permitted' fares set by LNER were reduced to these levels.

Of course, the 'powers that be' would far rather passengers did not purchase flexible fares; they want us all to buy Advance fares instead. The idea that passengers have good value fares which are not restricted to one specific itinerary is not an idea that the DfT/RDG/TOCs are keen on.

 

[Krokodil]

The sooner we set a mileage-based cap the better

 

[supervc-10]

I could see a 'stopping services only' ticket being a good idea. A London-Manchester ticket that's valid on LNR, TfW, and Northern services for example, or @miklcct 's Peterborough to London on Great Northern/ThamesLink. Plenty of people will chose the slow route to save some cash, I certainly have done and will do again.

I don't think 'advances only' could ever work well on long distance trains. Too many people don't quite know which train they will end up needing, which is why they buy an open ticket.

 

[WAB]

I could see a 'stopping services only' ticket being a good idea. A London-Manchester ticket that's valid on LNR, TfW, and Northern services for example, or @miklcct 's Peterborough to London on Great Northern/ThamesLink. Plenty of people will chose the slow route to save some cash, I certainly have done and will do again.

I don't think 'advances only' could ever work well on long distance trains. Too many people don't quite know which train they will end up needing, which is why they buy an open ticket.

Yes, the logical distinction between intercity and regional services dates from BR days and I doubt that they’ll disappear any time soon. Competition such as TPE vs LNER vs XC is unnecessary, and better advance pricing should be used to spread the load if needed.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Just to throw the cat amongst the pigeons, let's say we abolish operator-specific walk up tickets for London to Birmingham, where you currently have a choice of three operators.

How do you stop Avanti services from being wedged whilst Chiltern and London Northwestern are carting around fresh air if there's no financial incentive to use a slower route?

The obvious answer is to revert to geographic routeings. Already in place for Chiltern, of course, with "via High Wycombe." Presumably you'd go with something like "via Rugby" for Avanti and resurrect "via Northampton" for LNR.

 

[WAB]

Just to throw the cat amongst the pigeons, let's say we abolish operator-specific walk up tickets for London to Birmingham, where you currently have a choice of three operators.

How do you stop Avanti services from being wedged whilst Chiltern and London Northwestern are carting around fresh air if there's no financial incentive to use a slower route?

The obvious answer is to revert to geographic routeings. Already in place for Chiltern, of course, with "via High Wycombe." Presumably you'd go with something like "via Rugby" for Avanti and resurrect "via Northampton" for LNR.

That's certainly one way of doing it, although I don't see any point in an Avanti only ticket - it is the premium product after all, and I don't think the regional service would suffer unduly through the odd passenger forgoing the InterCity service for the long way round on a 350...

 

[Krokodil]

Just to throw the cat amongst the pigeons, let's say we abolish operator-specific walk up tickets for London to Birmingham, where you currently have a choice of three operators.

How do you stop Avanti services from being wedged whilst Chiltern and London Northwestern are carting around fresh air if there's no financial incentive to use a slower route?

The obvious answer is to revert to geographic routeings. Already in place for Chiltern, of course, with "via High Wycombe." Presumably you'd go with something like "via Rugby" for Avanti and resurrect "via Northampton" for LNR.

Shouldn't the Avanti service be the default for anyone who doesn't want the intermediate stops? Surely the decision on whether to use a stopping service or a fast service should hinge solely upon "which one will get me to my destination quickest?", the answer will depend upon a combination of speed and calling patterns. The only reason that you are even contemplating this is that there is no spare capacity, that's why we're reduced to pricing people away from popular trains. Currently there are 1178 seats per hour (in most hours) on AWC services between Birmingham and London. If/when they restore the full 3tph service that becomes 1767. Once HS2 is opened, it could in theory shift 3048 passengers per hour on this route alone. No need then for capacity worries.

 

[PG]

The idea that passengers have good value fares which are not restricted to one specific itinerary is not an idea that the DfT/RDG/TOCs are keen on.

Why do you, or anyone, think this is? Genuine question.

 

[Krokodil]

Why do you, or anyone, think this is? Genuine question.

Because (and this isn't supposition, it came from the horse's mouth at one TOC) advances allow TOCs to match demand to capacity. Obviously it would be better for the passenger if they could have full flexibility and there was adequate capacity anyway, but the bean counters at the Treasury are too tight-fisted to provide spare capacity.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just to throw the cat amongst the pigeons, let's say we abolish operator-specific walk up tickets for London to Birmingham, where you currently have a choice of three operators.

How do you stop Avanti services from being wedged whilst Chiltern and London Northwestern are carting around fresh air if there's no financial incentive to use a slower route?

There's no reason to encourage people onto slower services, as providing capacity on slower services is more expensive because there are more diagrams to maintain frequency. Ideally, everyone travelling from London to Birmingham would use Avanti. Were that the case, LNR could run 4-car north of Northampton, which would free up 350s to provide more capacity by running more 12-cars south of Northampton where the service is busier. Or with the coming of the 730s, it'd be 10 car south of Northampton and 5 north of it.

The only reason to have a cheaper option is to widen the market (i.e. for people who need flexibility and can't afford Avanti fares). But you don't need both Chiltern AND LNR for that, and you can do route High Wycombe for Chiltern. (Though equally it shouldn't be competing with Avanti, it should concentrate on its own markets and incidentally offer cheap fares, which means making the Birmingham services slower).

 

[PG]

Because (and this isn't supposition, it came from the horse's mouth at one TOC) advances allow TOCs to match demand to capacity.

And yet here we are in 2023, however many years after advances were introduced, with longer distance passengers cramming onto the first post evening peak departures while the preceding trains have spare capacity. The reality doesn't quite match up the demand with the capacity.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And yet here we are in 2023, however many years after advances were introduced, with longer distance passengers cramming onto the first post evening peak departures while the preceding trains have spare capacity. The reality doesn't quite match up the demand with the capacity.

If (and I'm not advocating this) you abolished Off Peak walk up tickets this problem would disappear.

 

[jagardner1984]

If (and I'm not advocating this) you abolished Off Peak walk up tickets this problem would disappear.

Which is precisely what Scotland are trialling.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63998198

(Well the other way around, scrapping the peak premium).

Perhaps another topic, but seeing the loadings I would really challenge whether in timetabling and fares, there has been enough adaptation to what "peak" now is or isn't.

There is an odd mix of demand suppression, timing incentives, historical anomalies and administrative intransigence which has built the UK fares system.

I always think we should look at these not through the lens of the person who can understand the deepest depths of BR Fares, but someone who has landed here from a country with an efficient, integrated public transport system. They have sincerely gone to a vending machine and bought a ticket to a destination. Beyond choosing between one full rate ticket and one half rate ticket (and possibly 1st Class), it is unfathomable to most people in that person's shoes that they would be sitting on a train, to that destination, with a ticket with that destination printed on it, and for that ticket not to be valid.

Incentivisation and discounting should be done through advance ticketing "this train only" (and I think my idea for "Rail Miles" loyalty scheme wasn't an entirely stupid one). The price you pay on the train or walk up in the station should be a basic fare, and should not be punitively expensive, either.

Massive simplification is desperately needed.

 

[Krokodil]

And yet here we are in 2023, however many years after advances were introduced, with longer distance passengers cramming onto the first post evening peak departures while the preceding trains have spare capacity. The reality doesn't quite match up the demand with the capacity.

You can blame the government for that one. Too stubborn to recognise that a fare cut can increase revenue so the Treasury refuses to even take the risk. In the new world, Anytime tickets are far too overpriced and need to come down to reflect new patterns of travel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which is precisely what Scotland are trialling.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63998198

(Well the other way around, scrapping the peak premium).

Which, notably, Avanti have already done on the day which was a massive problem - Fridays - even in the morning peak (LNER have done it too but evening only). Thus it isn't an issue on Fridays any more. This notably is permanent, not experimental.

 

[A0wen]

The Thameslink / Great Northern only London - Peterborough Super Off-Peak Day Return gives such a large discount compared to the any permitted ticket that I don't want to see it disappears.

I'm pretty sure there's long been a difference at Peterborough between 'Inter City' and non 'Inter City' services, possibly dating back to the time of electrification.

I would expect some form of differentiation to remain, because otherwise you'll end up crowding out what are currently the LNER services.

The Super Off Peak element I could see disappearing in favour of a streamlined peak / off peak offering, particularly as 'Super Off Peak' times aren't consistent across the network e.g. Thameslink have them as weekend only whereas LNWR has Super Off peak validity on Mon - Sat of arriving into London after 13.00 or leaving London after 10.30 am (but not between 16.00 and 19.00), and all day Sunday.