Elecman
Established Member
I would think the conductor and catenary wires will have to be beefed up to handle the much larger currents at 750v dc. Remember we’re powering heavy mainline trains not trams
If the "your side of the M6" jibe is aimed at me, I am in fact supportive of Merseyrail extensions, despite living in Greater Manchester. Not only Ellesmere Port - Helsby, but also Kirkby - Skelmersdale/Wigan and maybe Bidston - Neston and Ormskirk - Burscough. But third rail extensions are not going to happen, which is why upthread I suggested 750V DC OLE as a lower cost solution than isolated "islands" of 25kV AC.
Politics is the "art of the possible", not of banging your head against a brick wall.
According to Wikipedia, a Metrolink M5000 tram has a power draw of 480kW, i.e. 960kW for a double set, whereas a Merseyrail Class 777 unit will draw 2800kW, nearly three times more. But Metrolink trams run virtually nose to tail through the core of the network, while trains would be widely spaced on a Merseyrail extension, so I doubt that the total current in an OLE section would be greater. The contact wire would need to be a heavier gauge than for 25kV, as @Elecman said. Metrolink uses double contact wires and/or parallel feeders to reduce volts drop.Would it be so massively different to Metrolink that all the infrastructure would need to be massively different?
Or could you just use the same physical infrastructure as for 25kV & power it up at 750vDC?
Other Merseyrail extensions are really OT for this thread and have been discussed previously in other threads. I suggest you start a new thread for these questions.Ellesmere Port - Helsby
8km of electrification
Ormskirk - Burscough Bridge
need to re-instate the curves north & south of the Southport lineAre they small/cheap enough projects that they could be locally funded?
electrify ~5.5km of line into Burscough Bridge station
Northern service from/to Preston can then run to Southport
No rolling stock changes, & potentially an increase in revenue for Merseyrail & Northern.
Bidston-Neston;
wouldn't you just transfer the entire service to Wrexham over to Merseyrail, who then might extend it up to New Brighton. Would still be operated by DMU though.
Kirkby & onto Wigan
would be 20km of electrification, with there being nothing much of anything between Kirkby & Wigan. Without a whole new route, it's very difficult to serve Skelmersdale.
More likely that the existing Northern services get extended down the line to Moorfields, using a battery even for the last little bit in/out of the station.
Or use an existing thread, such as Southport to Wigan Electrification or Future of Wrexham-Bidston line, inc. possible franchise swap etc.Other Merseyrail extensions are really OT for this thread and have been discussed previously in other threads. I suggest you start a new thread for these questions.
Except that it would be prohibitively expensive to provide a dedicated 25kV grid feed just for a short section like Ellesmere Port to Helsby. So you would have to electrify all the way to Halton to pick up a feed from the WCML - roughly double the distance and cost - or run a long "extension lead" from Halton to Helsby - also costly.The new class 777 units are designed to be converted to 25KV operation, with a lowered roof section for a pantograph and space for a transformer rectifier. So you might as well use 25KV.
Except that it would be prohibitively expensive to provide a dedicated 25kV grid feed just for a short section like Ellesmere Port to Helsby. So you would have to electrify all the way to Halton to pick up a feed from the WCML - roughly double the distance and cost - or run a long "extension lead" from Halton to Helsby - also costly.
Short term what is wrong with a Vivarail shuttle between EP and Helsby doing the connecting?
No, this is Britain so the options are set up a consultation, a feasibility study or an inquiry, then spend years pondering before more of the same.So doing b****r all is the better option in the short and middle term then?
If Merseyrail extend to Helsby, would they have any increase in operational costs?
The extra distance could almost be done in the time stock currently sits at ELP, so no need for any extra services or staff.
Track access charges & electric, but aren't EMUs cheaper than DMUs for the access charge (?)
The existing Northern service will be subsidised, though there aren't many services a day.
I wonder if DfT would be willing to part fund the infrastructure so they could then ditch the subsidy?
No, this is Britain so the options are set up a consultation, a feasibility study or an inquiry, then spend years pondering before more of the same.
I think also their new trains, will accelerate faster, so perhaps that might mean a more comfortable turn around time wise at Formby
Except that it would be prohibitively expensive to provide a dedicated 25kV grid feed just for a short section like Ellesmere Port to Helsby. So you would have to electrify all the way to Halton to pick up a feed from the WCML - roughly double the distance and cost - or run a long "extension lead" from Halton to Helsby - also costly.
oops I meant Helsby !!!!What turns around at Formby?
Surely if this line was deemed worthy of more than a twice a day service it would have one already? Is there call for an hourly service at Ince and Elton and Stanlow and Thornton stations?
If the electrification is extended from ELP, then it's really easy to operate. The current trains sit at ELP for 12minutes, you can almost do a return trip to Helsby in that time.
Surely if this line was deemed worthy of more than a twice a day service it would have one already? Is there call for an hourly service at Ince and Elton and Stanlow and Thornton stations?