Orbital Links That Are Missing Or Too Infrequent

[tbtc]

Many places have seen their "outer circles" trimmed back/ cut into multiple services, so that more and more journeys would mean having to go into the city centre and back out again

The "Strathclyde" thread started a discussion about the (apparent) need for orbital links, providing a grid-like combination of services rather than only having radial routes

I can see why it's an attractive argument - especially if you enjoy abstract concepts - who wouldn't want a wholesome network providing huge numbers of journey opportunities rather than just routes down the main road into the town/city centre, and everyone having to change there

But, rather than abstract discussions about how things work in theory, what "orbital" routes are lacking from UK cities (or large towns)? Or, examples of links that may have an hourly tendered service but not the kind of high frequency link that you might need to encourage people to change twice in the suburbs rather than making one change between frequent services in the city centre?

"orbital" can be subjective, e.g. you could argue that Bolton/ Bury/ Rochdale/ Oldham are all reasonably large towns and that any service between two or more of them is simply linking these towns rather than a "Manchester orbital" service - the same could be said of First's 201 from East Kilbride - Hamilton - Motherwell - Coatbridge - Airdrie being a link between towns of Lanarkshire rather than a "Glasgow orbital" service - I'm certainly not talking about circular routes - only about services that link different parts of a town/city without going into the centre

Here in Sheffield we've lost a lot of orbital services, or seen them significantly reduced. For example, Manor Top was a busy interchange (a major junction in the south east of the city, on the tram network) with up to twenty buses per hour round the ring road to Darnall (2/10/11/20/59/70/71/711), of which up to six continued to Meadowhall. Now, there's only one bus per hour (18). I could see the argument that a better frequency from Manor Top to Meadowhall would make a number of journeys more attractive by public transport. However, we are in a period of retrenchment where most busy radial routes have been reduced in frequency with no scope to introduce non-core services as things stand

Where else though? What about your city (or large town)? What are the biggest links that we'd need to turn a simple route map into a proper network that allows several options to get around without having to go into/through the centre?

 

[philjo]

In Cambridge there is a missing link from Cherry Hinton to the Newmarket road area. You can get a through bus, as the buses serve both areas but they all go via the city centre (and the 1 also goes via Addenbrookes hospital) so it may be quicker to walk! A circular bus would help even if it was just hourly.

 

[lachlan]

Aberdeen does not have any orbital service (apart from the 8A which runs only a couple of times each day, and the students exclusive 9U between Hillhead and ARI). I believe every other bus route goes via Union Street.

An orbital bus would connect a lot of people to RGU and the shopping at Bridge of Dee, ARI, and the industrial estates at Bridge of Don. It's not something I would use personally as I live more centrally (and can use the 9U)

 

[Stephen1001]

Southampton has no orbital services, and connectivity between its districts without travelling into the city centre is pretty poor - the section of U6 between Swaythling and Aldermoor is about as good as it gets. Until about ten years ago, links between suburbs were provided by roundabout routes that still began/ended in the centre (see for instance routes 7A, 11A/11C and 14 on the first map on this page: https://sotonbus.blogspot.com/2015/08/timetables-out-map-nostalgia.html), but the last decade has not been kind to the network.

 

[CBlue]

In Cambridge there is a missing link from Cherry Hinton to the Newmarket road area. You can get a through bus, as the buses serve both areas but they all go via the city centre (and the 1 also goes via Addenbrookes hospital) so it may be quicker to walk! A circular bus would help even if it was just hourly.

Whippet gave it a go in the tower transit days with service 117, it lasted a matter of months before being withdrawn as unprofitable.

 

[lachlan]

Looking at a bus map from 2011, and the same map in 2016, there are two orbital routes: the 14 (lime green) and the 26 (purple). The 26 still runs today but renumbered 9 and 10, whereas the 14 appears to have been cut since 2016.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Aberdeen does not have any orbital service (apart from the 8A which runs only a couple of times each day, and the students exclusive 9U between Hillhead and ARI). I believe every other bus route goes via Union Street.

An orbital bus would connect a lot of people to RGU and the shopping at Bridge of Dee, ARI, and the industrial estates at Bridge of Don. It's not something I would use personally as I live more centrally (and can use the 9U)

I wouldn't really say the 8A counts, the 13 could be classed as an orbital to some extent.

Aberdeen has only really had two orbital services, the most well known being the 6 which operated from Bridge Street to Seaton via Wellington Road, Kincorth, Ferryhill, Rosemount, ARI (Foresterhill Road) and St Machar Drive, however the service failed to really connect key areas of the city and only really served as a link to ARI from Seaton and Kincorth. It was withdrawn in 2008 with the Seaton to ARI section being replaced by the 14 (Kingswells - Woodend - Seaton - ARI).

The other service was the "Park Lynx 8" which operated during the Summer period only from 2005 to 2007, this service operated from Tillydrone to Balnagask via Hilton, Middlefield, Northfield, Mastrick, Hazlehead, Mannofield, Garthdee, Duthie Park & Kincorth. While it offered far better links than the 6 the 90 minute frequency put people off and it wasn't very well advertised. I recall using the service a few times from Hilton to Hazlehead and it always being empty.

There is demand for orbital routes in Aberdeen, I think two separate routes would work best these could be as follows:

Holburn Junction - Bridge Street - Balnagask - Wellington Circle Retail Park - Kincorth - ASDA Bridge Of Dee - RGU - Auchinyell - Mannofield - Airyhall - Woodend - Summerhill - ARI - Hilton - Danestone - Scotstown Shops - Dubford - Bridge Of Don Retail Park.

This service would replace the Balnagask leg on the 20 while also providing Torry with a direct link to the west end of Union Street. It would also create much needed links for various areas to ASDA Bridge Of Dee and ARI.

The second service could be: City Centre - Seaton - Sir Duncan Rice Library - Berryden - Cornhill Road - ARI - Provost Fraser Drive - Mastrick Shops - Lang Stracht (Tesco) - Kingswells P&R - Countesswells - Cults - Culter.

On a side note since it somewhat relates the eastern terminals of the 13 and 15 should be swapped with the 13 going to the Beach and the 15 to Seaton. This would provide a useful direct link from Northfield and Mastrick to the Beach. In addition the 15 should also be increased to a 20 minute frequency.

 

[asb]

Whippet gave it a go in the tower transit days with service 117, it lasted a matter of months before being withdrawn as unprofitable.

Before that in the late 90s Cambus ran the 5A from Addenbrookes to Newmarket Road P&R every 30 minutes which was totally dead.

 

[route101]

Southampton has no orbital services, and connectivity between its districts without travelling into the city centre is pretty poor - the section of U6 between Swaythling and Aldermoor is about as good as it gets. Until about ten years ago, links between suburbs were provided by roundabout routes that still began/ended in the centre (see for instance routes 7A, 11A/11C and 14 on the first map on this page: https://sotonbus.blogspot.com/2015/08/timetables-out-map-nostalgia.html), but the last decade has not been kind to the network.

Yes, some areas don't have a good service in Southampton. The area to the west of the common and north of central station has few services.

 

[overthewater]

The No14 was a Bus route devolvepment grant route which was paired up with No13. I dont think either worked out well.

Looking at a bus map from 2011, and the same map in 2016, there are two orbital routes: the 14 (lime green) and the 26 (purple). The 26 still runs today but renumbered 9 and 10, whereas the 14 appears to have been cut since 2016.

Orbital buses need to have a purpose, and the trouble is they can be useful but you need to tick a lot of boxes: like schools, Hospitals, employment location, supermarkets, If you look at First Glasgow 90, Lothian 2, 21, 400, Dundee 10.

 

[SSmith2009]

Leicester has the 40 "CircleLine" service around the outer area of the city - currently an hourly mon-sat daytimes service run by Centrebus utilising four branded solo SR's

Leicester City Council are seeking funding to eventually increase it to every 15 minutes as part of their ambitious LeicesterBuses plans: https://www.leicesterbuses.co.uk/better-buses

The Leicester outer circular route in various forms/operators has been around for well over 30 years but until 2007/2008 it was 40 for clockwise and 41 for anti-clockwise then it was given an overhaul with brandrd east lancs esteem buses and became 40 in both directions.

 

[lachlan]

Birmingham has both an inner circle route (number 8) and an outer circle (route 11) which according to Wikipedia takes three hours (!!) to complete.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Birmingham has both an inner circle route (number 8) and an outer circle (route 11) which according to Wikipedia takes three hours (!!) to complete.

The 11 has now been split into two overlapping routes.

 

[lachlan]

The 11 has now been split into two overlapping routes.

Ah I did see that. According to the Birmingham Mail (https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/legendary-number-11-bus-route-20946551) it is only tempoary and was supposed to go back to normal in autumn 2021, do you know if there is still a plan to re-combine the route?

The legendary number 11 bus route will be split in two from July 4 - partly due to delays in Perry Barr caused by ongoing works.

The step is intended to improve the service for 96 per cent of customers – but some customers will have to get off and get on a different bus in order to complete their journeys.

A temporary measure has been introduced where the route will be split into two overlapping routes until the work is completed – expected to be in the autumn.

 

[tbtc]

Looking at a bus map from 2011, and the same map in 2016, there are two orbital routes: the 14 (lime green) and the 26 (purple). The 26 still runs today but renumbered 9 and 10, whereas the 14 appears to have been cut since 2016.


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Interesting that you mention Dundee, since it has lost a few circular routes over the years (the "old" 13/14 were a bit different to the ones introduced in the Blair era - but also the 7/8, the 36/37 and possibly others that I've forgotten about over the years) - the current network is fairly "radial"

 

[DunsBus]

Edinburgh had a number of orbital routes, most notably the 32/52 which ran around the outer edge of the city. All were split into linear routes between 2000 and 2003.

 

[johncrossley]

Orbital buses need to have a purpose, and the trouble is they can be useful but you need to tick a lot of boxes: like schools, Hospitals, employment location, supermarkets, If you look at First Glasgow 90, Lothian 2, 21, 400, Dundee 10.

That is the prevailing view in the UK, even in Scotland, but in other countries they often use non-radial routes (which may or may not be orbital) to connect into other routes to enable journeys to be made without going through the city centre. The non-radial route may not have an obvious use on its own.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That is the prevailing view in the UK, even in Scotland, but in other countries they often use non-radial routes (which may or may not be orbital) to connect into other routes to enable journeys to be made without going through the city centre. The non-radial route may not have an obvious use on its own.

"Connections" of course are not a thing in the culture of UK bus operations outside London (other than in falsely declaring them in order to save money by working round tachograph rules). The culture is one more like Ryanair - the service is a collection of routes intended for use individually.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

in other countries they often use non-radial routes (which may or may not be orbital) to connect into other routes to enable journeys to be made without going through the city centre. The non-radial route may not have an obvious use on its own.

"Connections" of course are not a thing in the culture of UK bus operations outside London (other than in falsely declaring them in order to save money by working round tachograph rules). The culture is one more like Ryanair - the service is a collection of routes intended for use individually.

I think we all "get" the concept. However, it is those types of non orbital routes that are simply less popular and especially if they don't serve defined traffic objectives. Therefore, in the UK, whilst there are commercial examples like the 8 and 11 in Birmingham, or the 53 in Manchester, so many are simply never going to be commercially viable - too low a frequency to get the patronage, or a higher frequency and the additional resources/costs will be not be recouped.

TBH, the challenges on retaining what we have in the post-Covid world will be difficult enough but there you go. I'm sure messrs Burnham and Rotherham will continue undaunted to deliver a London style network with London style fares.

 

[lachlan]

"Connections" of course are not a thing in the culture of UK bus operations outside London (other than in falsely declaring them in order to save money by working round tachograph rules). The culture is one more like Ryanair - the service is a collection of routes intended for use individually.

Most of our routes are too infrequent to make multi-leg journeys practical.

Talking about orbital journeys there were two services introduced with the new A90. The 747 operated from Montrose to the airport via Stonehaven and stopped at the park and rides. The 757 also went to the airport but started at Newtonhill and went via Portlethen. The 747 was pulled within a year and the 757 even quicker leaving us with zero public transport on the new bypass.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Most of our routes are too infrequent to make multi-leg journeys practical.

Infrequent routes can work with connections if the connections are planned and properly maintained. This is not UK operating culture.

 

[carlberry]

"Connections" of course are not a thing in the culture of UK bus operations outside London (other than in falsely declaring them in order to save money by working round tachograph rules). The culture is one more like Ryanair - the service is a collection of routes intended for use individually.

What examples are there in London (i.e. specific connections, not frequent routes coming together at a central point or bus station which happens all over the UK)? As an example the Traws Cymru network consists of lots of routes with timed connections.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What examples are there in London (i.e. specific connections, not frequent routes coming together at a central point or bus station which happens all over the UK)? As an example the Traws Cymru network consists of lots of routes with timed connections.

Timed connections aren't a thing in London as most routes are high-frequency. However, the other part of quality connections (infrastructure, such as bus stations directly outside Tube stations) is present. You really need both for a quality, attractive approach to connections. It also affects your route design, as for it to work in multiple places running times are important.

 

[InOban]

Edinburgh had a number of orbital routes, most notably the 32/52 which ran around the outer edge of the city. All were split into linear routes between 2000 and 2003.

And it now has the 21 and 38. Which link the two hospitals. The 21 goes round the city on the east side, the 38 on the west. Judging by the frequency, both seem to be successful.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And it now has the 21 and 38. Which link the two hospitals. The 21 goes round the city on the east side, the 38 on the west. Judging by the frequency, both seem to be successful.

The problem with single orbital services is that they bring poor punctuality because they get tangled up in every bit of disruption and they don't have obvious layovers. Even the Circle Line couldn't avoid that.

But you can, as Edinburgh shows, have a set split up into separate bits joining key nodes.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Infrequent routes can work with connections if the connections are planned and properly maintained. This is not UK operating culture.

I'd question quite how good it is in other countries. When traveling in other countries, there's usually either an issue of a frequent service meeting an infrequent one or vice versa. Fine from infrequent to frequent (as you usually have only a few mins to wait) but going the other way means you might be lucky or you might just miss and spend 25 mins stood in a bus shelter. In Portugal, I'd have that on the Cais de Sodre to Cascais line and it was usually quicker to walk the 30 mins than wait 25 and a 10 min ride.

There's also the issue that you have a lot of different routes to try to align and that isn't necessarily straightforward.

The problem with single orbital services is that they bring poor punctuality because they get tangled up in every bit of disruption and they don't have obvious layovers. Even the Circle Line couldn't avoid that.

But you can, as Edinburgh shows, have a set split up into separate bits joining key nodes.

And that is how it works in other UK cities. Southmead Hospital and Bristol Parkway maintain the same function in Bristol

 

[johncrossley]

Most of our routes are too infrequent to make multi-leg journeys practical.

If you restrict your destinations to places you can only go direct from your local bus stop, you can't get to many places in a big city. Do you assume that if a trip cannot be made by direct bus, then it can only be made by car?

 

[lachlan]

If you restrict your destinations to places you can only go direct from your local bus stop, you can't get to many places in a big city. Do you assume that if a trip cannot be made by direct bus, then it can only be made by car?

I'm thinking more from the perspective of the general public than myself here as I don't drive so of course yes I would make multi-leg bus journeys if I needed to. In Aberdeen, a city full of oil workers and car lovers, I don't think many people would even consider a multi-leg journey when most buses run at 15 minute frequencies or less (I think only the 12 and 23 run more frequently, of course routes combine the city for higher frequencies, but that's not where you would be changing for an orbital service).

I do however think the routes Jordan mentioned above have merit though more as direct routes from housing to ARI, employment oppurtunities, and the universities.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you restrict your destinations to places you can only go direct from your local bus stop, you can't get to many places in a big city. Do you assume that if a trip cannot be made by direct bus, then it can only be made by car?

In essence, if one owns a car, a multi-bus journey in the UK will be unattractive and is indeed not worthy of consideration. It is likely that making such a journey by bicycle will be quicker, and sometimes even foot.

 

[tbtc]

I think we all "get" the concept. However, it is those types of non orbital routes that are simply less popular and especially if they don't serve defined traffic objectives. Therefore, in the UK, whilst there are commercial examples like the 8 and 11 in Birmingham, or the 53 in Manchester, so many are simply never going to be commercially viable - too low a frequency to get the patronage, or a higher frequency and the additional resources/costs will be not be recouped

Agreed

I think that some people are focussing on talking a good game about just how comprehensive our networks could be if only we were as enlightened as they are, but seem very bad at suggesting significant orbital links that should be prioritised in UK cities

If we are going to use some resources to run orbital services then where? Which links are ones you'd prioritise? Or is it just some waffle about "nodes" and no practical suggestions?

And it now has the 21 and 38. Which link the two hospitals. The 21 goes round the city on the east side, the 38 on the west. Judging by the frequency, both seem to be successful.

They were both circulars, once upon a time

Broomhouse - Ferry Road - Leith was part of the 1/6

Leith - Portobello - Cameron Toll was part of the 32/52

But, for a period (late 1980s?), Easter Scottish won the tender for the 38 (Crewe Toll - Morningside - Cameron Toll) and turned it into a 38/58 circular that competed with the north/eastern side of the LRT 32/52

The 38 has become a commercial service, helped by the new Infirmary at the southern end and the new developments at Granton that give people a reason to travel to both ends

The 21 has similarly seen the Gyle become a major destination at one end and the aforementioned Infirmary at the other end

But Edinburgh is quite different to other major cities, more like somewhere like York (that has a "tourist" centre but also some large destinations for "locals" around the ring road - shopping centres etc) - there's also the issue that Edinburgh is a bit more like a "continental" city (with a lot of expensive housing where the "inner cities" would be in other places, and housing scheme around the edge where other cities would have "leafy suburbs") - so things that work well in Edinburgh won't necessarily work in every city