Other lines that could be "Overground-ised"

[HSTEd]

Well, although it was expensive, I'm not sure we can dispute that the London Overground project has suceeded in dramatically increasing patronage on the railways in London that were previously somewhat backwaters.

Are there any other lines that could heavily benefit from such investment?

(I could make the argument that more of the trains on the West Coastway that terminate at places like West Worthing should be extended to Littlehampton, so that it becomes a defacto overground line for that conurbation)

EDIT:

Oops, wrong forum!

 

[JonathanH]

(I could make the argument that more of the trains on the West Coastway that terminate at places like West Worthing should be extended to Littlehampton, so that it becomes a defacto overground line for that conurbation)

Not really, there is a faster train immediately behind - West Worthing is the limit of the need to provide a stopper. There is a limit to the distance an all stations stopper should run once it is caught up by a train behind that has left ten minutes later.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I did some work on it for my Masters. Basically, I doubt any other line would become a part of the Overground because the Tories don't want a Labour Mayor having control over London's rail services.

Politics aside, I think South London Line services could make a great Overground route.

 

[A0wen]

I did some work on it for my Masters. Basically, I doubt any other line would become a part of the Overground because the Tories don't want a Labour Mayor having control over London's rail services.

Politics aside, I think South London Line services could make a great Overground route.

You can also add that TFL is a complete financial basket case - and that's not entirely due to Covid.

 

[Whistler40145]

How about Watford Junction to St Albans Abbey moving to London Overground?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How about Watford Junction to St Albans Abbey moving to London Overground?

Given that it is entirely outside of London, I don't see that that would ever happen.

 

[Whistler40145]

Given that it is entirely outside of London, I don't see that that would ever happen.

Well Watford Junction isn't in London and is served by London Overground

 

[LLivery]

I did some work on it for my Masters. Basically, I doubt any other line would become a part of the Overground because the Tories don't want a Labour Mayor having control over London's rail services.

Politics aside, I think South London Line services could make a great Overground route.

Aren't the Great Northern Moorgate services joining the Overground network?

As for TfL's finances, I'm guessing here but, wouldn't South London's suburban network be a financial gift, once barriers are widely installed?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well Watford Junction isn't in London and is served by London Overground

The other end of that line (and most of its length) is in London. No part of the Abbey Line is.

 

[Whistler40145]

How about upgrading the Canonbury Curve to passenger standards to enable services off the southern part of the ECML to easily access the North London and East London lines?

 

[JonathanH]

As for TfL's finances, I'm guessing here but, wouldn't South London's suburban network be a financial gift, once barriers are widely installed?

Barriers are already widely installed at Southern's stations.

How about upgrading the Canonbury Curve to passenger standards to enable services off the southern part of the ECML to easily access the North London and East London lines?

No. The principle of the Overground network is people changing trains at key interchanges - eg any journey which the Canonbury Curve could facilitate is already possible with a change at Highbury & Islington between frequent services on the two routes.

The Overground ideas for South London that were once mooted actually reduced the use of 'curves' with half-hourly services to introduce more interchanges like that at Hackney Central / Hackney Downs enabling more frequent and simpler service patterns. The big problem with South London's network is the 'everywhere to everywhere' nature of the network that keeps service frequency comparatively low on some connections.

 

[swt_passenger]

How about upgrading the Canonbury Curve to passenger standards to enable services off the southern part of the ECML to easily access the North London and East London lines?

Well, theres no spare capacity on the NLL, and crossing over on the flat to the ELL would wreck the capacity there is.
Another regularly proposed idea that is pretty much impossible to fit in...

 

[Whistler40145]

Well, theres no spare capacity on the NLL, and crossing over on the flat to the ELL would wreck the capacity there is.
Another regularly proposed idea that is pretty much impossible to fit in...

My apologies

 

[swt_passenger]

My apologies

No need. On the face of it another north south link is quite logical. But to work it would need grade separation, and there’s no space to do it.

 

[D365]

How about upgrading the Canonbury Curve to passenger standards to enable services off the southern part of the ECML to easily access the North London and East London lines?

Even if there was NLL/ELL capacity, Moorgate is easily capable of turning 16-18tph. For those wishing to travel round the side of London, changing trains at H&I is pleasant enough.

 

[Aictos]

Aren't the Great Northern Moorgate services joining the Overground network?

As for TfL's finances, I'm guessing here but, wouldn't South London's suburban network be a financial gift, once barriers are widely installed?

As to the Great Northern services joining the London Overground network, it's been discussed I believe but it has gone no further then that.

I would think that the Southern Metro services might be a good fit for the London Overground with services such as:

London Victoria to Epsom via Carshalton

London Victoria to Sutton/Epsom Downs via Norbury

London Victoria to West Croydon via Gipsy Hill

London Victoria to London Bridge via Sydenham

London Bridge to Coulson Town via Sydenham

London Bridge to Epsom

London Bridge to Caterham/Tattenham Corner

London Bridge to Caterham via Norbury

London Bridge to Caterham via Peckham Rye

But we will see what the future sees

 

[tbtc]

The big problem with South London's network is the 'everywhere to everywhere' nature of the network that keeps service frequency comparatively low on some connections

Agreed - there are certain sections that I could suggest we simplify from a collection of half hourly services into a smaller number of (e.g.) fifteen minute services but there'd be uproar from people who "lost" their service to the City or their service to the West End - it looks easy on paper to give places like Hayes/ Oxted/ Coulsdon etc to one London terminus, I think there'd be too many objections to that kind of thing

Personally, I'd rather have a simple network of frequent services but the Thameslink "expansion" has cemented the messy combination of half hourly services south of the Thames - however much I'd like to tidy up the combination of services around Slade Green/ Dartford!

 

[paul1609]

Well, although it was expensive, I'm not sure we can dispute that the London Overground project has suceeded in dramatically increasing patronage on the railways in London that were previously somewhat backwaters.

Are there any other lines that could heavily benefit from such investment?

(I could make the argument that more of the trains on the West Coastway that terminate at places like West Worthing should be extended to Littlehampton, so that it becomes a defacto overground line for that conurbation)

EDIT:

Oops, wrong forum!

There used to be a Brighton to Littlehampton stopping service but the path was taken by the second Littlehampton to Victoria service. It made sense really as Littlehampton has a bigger flow to Chichester (the West Sussex county town) than it does to Brighton.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

My apologies

That was actually the original plan for the East London Line extension-it was going to terminate at Finsbury Park. I personally think the idea has merit.

 

[willgreen]

Extension of the District beyond Wimbledon using the Sutton Loop Line wouldn't be the worst idea in the world (needs significant remodelling of Wimbledon station though, and I'm not sure what the capacity is like on the branch).

 

[D365]

That was actually the original plan for the East London Line extension-it was going to terminate at Finsbury Park. I personally think the idea has merit.

I can imagine that, since the original plans, a flyover between Dalston and H&I would have increased the cost significantly. No real benefit especially as the Victoria Line upgrade would have been in planning around the same time.

 

[swt_passenger]

Extension of the District beyond Wimbledon using the Sutton Loop Line wouldn't be the worst idea in the world (needs significant remodelling of Wimbledon station though, and I'm not sure what the capacity is like on the branch).

That wouldn’t be Overground though...

That was actually the original plan for the East London Line extension-it was going to terminate at Finsbury Park. I personally think the idea has merit.

Whose plan? Presumably lasted until it was found to be unbuildable...

 

[HST43257]

Moorgate to Welwyn and Hertford Loop
Cannon Street circulars (Abbey Wood/Bexleyheath/Sidcup)
SWR inter suburban (Hounslow/Surbiton/Richmond)

 

[willgreen]

That wouldn’t be Overground though...

I'd argue it still fits the thread - the Sutton Loop would make far more sense as part of the Tube than the Overground, yet is still a relative backwater with a poor service by London standards. The way to improve that is through metroisation, just slightly differently to what was suggested by the OP.

 

[A0wen]

I can imagine that, since the original plans, a flyover between Dalston and H&I would have increased the cost significantly. No real benefit especially as the Victoria Line upgrade would have been in planning around the same time.

There's another problem with trying to put a flyover there - and its a physical obstruction more than a cost issue.....

 

[swt_passenger]

I'd argue it still fits the thread - the Sutton Loop would make far more sense as part of the Tube than the Overground, yet is still a relative backwater with a poor service by London standards. The way to improve that is through metroisation, just slightly differently to what was suggested by the OP.

There were already plans in place for 4 tph round the loop, which I suspect is the maximum possible, but didn’t it fall to local politicians objections?

 

[A0wen]

That was actually the original plan for the East London Line extension-it was going to terminate at Finsbury Park. I personally think the idea has merit.

Not sure it does. H & I gives access to National Rail and the Victoria Line. FP would only have added the Piccadilly to that. Might have been a different case if the LNER 'Northern Heights' plan hadn't been scuppered by WW2.....

 

[swt_passenger]

There's another problem with trying to put a flyover there - and its a physical obstruction more than a cost issue.....

HS1 and it’s escape shaft below, and numerous road bridges above...

 

[Sad Sprinter]

That wouldn’t be Overground though...


Whose plan? Presumably lasted until it was found to be unbuildable...

Circa 2003 at least. There's a map of it in an old copy of Railways Illustrated at the time

 

[willgreen]

There were already plans in place for 4 tph round the loop, which I suspect is the maximum possible, but didn’t it fall to local politicians objections?

Yep, there were protests about losing through trains instead of terminating at Blackfriars; the District would give access to Zone 1 and a frequency increase, though of course this would depend on the number of passengers this would add.