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Our Railways Under Nuclear Attack

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trebor79

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To summarise, at stage 8 of the transition, the Channel Tunnel operation taken over by government and normal railway service suspended. Railways will be used for mobilisation of tanks and evacuating civillians before nuclear attack. Apparently, the Railways Act 1976 allows railways to be taken over by the government in wartime-doesn't look like its been repealed although you might find something in the Civil Contingencies Act 2002 about them.
One wonders where these people are going to be "evacuated" to? I mean most places with a large station able to take lots of incoming passengers are going to be cities and large towns which might well be on the target list anyway. Unless the plan is to dump people at Altnabreac or somewhere equally remote. But then how do you shelter, feed and look after lots of people suddenly dumped in a remote place?
For some years I've been of the opinion that the best thing personally and for my family should we end up in such a situation is to head towards a likely ground zero and await vaporisation. I'm not convinced life afterwards would be particularly enjoyable or worth living, and the response to the current comparatively mild crisis has strengthened that feeling.

Israel especially, if Arab nations were on the verge of succesfully taking over Israel entirely, they will rain down destruction on themselves and Arab neighbours resulting in Iranian Nuke counterattacks, I do firmly believe Iran already have Nukes.
Quite possible if they've managed to enrich enough uranium. A uranium bomb is actually very simple to put together once you've managed to enrich the material (which is the relatively difficult part). Plutonium bombs are much more difficult to design and assemble. The Trinity test was a plutonium device, then used successfully at Nagasaki. The Hiroshima bomb was a uranium device, and that attack was the first time it was fired because the physicists and engineers were absolutely certain it would work as intended.
I don't think the Iranian can have any thermonuclear devices - there's some secret sauce required there to make the designs work.
 
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RT4038

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I would expect a relatively small number of cancellations to the service and a thread of comments on railforums about how certain users would deal with it better.

And another thread seeking assurances that their favourite split ticketing deal, and advance fares, would still be available.
 

Sad Sprinter

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One wonders where these people are going to be "evacuated" to? I mean most places with a large station able to take lots of incoming passengers are going to be cities and large towns which might well be on the target list anyway. Unless the plan is to dump people at Altnabreac or somewhere equally remote. But then how do you shelter, feed and look after lots of people suddenly dumped in a remote place?
For some years I've been of the opinion that the best thing personally and for my family should we end up in such a situation is to head towards a likely ground zero and await vaporisation. I'm not convinced life afterwards would be particularly enjoyable or worth living, and the response to the current comparatively mild crisis has strengthened that feeling.


Quite possible if they've managed to enrich enough uranium. A uranium bomb is actually very simple to put together once you've managed to enrich the material (which is the relatively difficult part). Plutonium bombs are much more difficult to design and assemble. The Trinity test was a plutonium device, then used successfully at Nagasaki. The Hiroshima bomb was a uranium device, and that attack was the first time it was fired because the physicists and engineers were absolutely certain it would work as intended.
I don't think the Iranian can have any thermonuclear devices - there's some secret sauce required there to make the designs work.

I think West Wales is one of the "safest" places to be after nuclear war. Scotland maybe, but theres plenty of millitary sites up there to attack, even in the Orkney Islands.

I think there's an instinctive urge to do something to survive, even though survival may not actually be that advantageous.
 

Cowley

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Does anyone follow the Atomic Hobo podcast? Plenty of detail on various nuclear apocalypse scenarios to give you nightmares, including one on what the plans were for the railways over the years...


(And yes, the subject of the S******** R****** does come up)
 
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"I mean, we must be... increasingly on the alert to prevent them from taking over other mineshaft space, in order to breed more prodigiously than we do, thus, knocking us out in superior numbers when we emerge! Mr. President, we must not allow... a mine shaft gap!" - General Buck Turgidson
Nuclear strategy has something to say about this.

The logic of deterrence works upon the basis that if any party is to initiate a nuclear exchange against another nuclear power, that the counter-strike from their target would effectively destroy them too, hence presumably both sides would consider a nuclear war unconscionable. Mutually assured destruction, a wonderfully cynical balance....

If it became known that one side had made preparations to preserve their society in the event of a nuclear war then this balance is changed. If for example a hypothetical Britain had converted enough mineshaft space or built sufficient underground cities that the government convinced itself that society could survive and thrive, then the cost to Britain of a nuclear war would be lower, since Britain's destruction is no longer (as) assured.

Hence, by making preparations to survive a nuclear war you actually increase the risk, since if the balance changes where your side is no longer at risk of (as much) destruction then the other side then the odds are in your favour. The other side will recognise this, and out of fear you will attack will have to either pre-emptively strike, or engage in an arms race of shelter building. This is clearly absurd and just raises the risk further.

This problem became clear in the late 50s and early 60s when the increasing nuclear arsenals basically rendered the prospect of "winning" a nuclear war impossible. So the majority of the efforts of the British Government stopped short of actual serious planning to survive a full scale nuclear war. The plans that were made were mostly for the continuity of government for a short period of time, or to withstand a far smaller nuclear exchange. Hence:
The bulk of the material is from the 1950s. There is significantly less from the early 1960s and only a couple of drawings from after 1964. It is interesting to speculate about why the files stop at this time – they don’t in themselves give any answer. Perhaps it was thought that as nuclear weapons got ever more powerful, planning how to keep the railway network functioning after an attack was pointless – everything would be destroyed beyond repair in the first few minutes.

I imagine that today there probably aren't any plans for keeping the railway operational if there were to be an attack. At most perhaps a paragraph or a footnote in documents about other more likely contingencies.
 

Vespa

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I don't think the Iranian can have any thermonuclear devices - there's some secret sauce required there to make the designs work.

The Iranians embrace death as a gateway to their 72 virgins, which is actually a mistranslation, correct translation is "companions"
Anyway we digress, there is nothing to stop suicide bombers to walking into any location and unleash a dirty bomb leaving radioactive materials with a half life of 10,000 years plus, a very accurate human missile, personally I think they have advanced a long way in nuclear technology and in a secret facility.
When a Shia government is surrounded by Israel and Sunni enemies, the incentive is there.

Imagine any of them going into Kings Cross or Euston and detonating a dirty bomb, the disruption to the railways will be massive.
 

Scotrail314209

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I can imagine the very little parts of the network left would most likely be used to move goods around to remote areas. By very little I mean the far Highlands of Scotland and maybe the Cambrian Line in Wales would survive. Everywhere else I think would be a goner except for extremely tiny stretches of mainline.
 

Bletchleyite

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Imagine any of them going into Kings Cross or Euston and detonating a dirty bomb, the disruption to the railways will be massive.

The Government has imagined this, which is why it would be incredibly difficult to get one into the country for anyone who did have nefarious intentions. For example everyone entering through an airport walks through a radiation detector, they are those things that are like giant X-ray machines you go through in arrivals.
 

RT4038

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To be also considered is the effect on the Iranian Railways, of the counter strike.... I wonder if they have a set of emergency schedules for every eventuality?
 

Trackman

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The Government has imagined this, which is why it would be incredibly difficult to get one into the country for anyone who did have nefarious intentions. For example everyone entering through an airport walks through a radiation detector, they are those things that are like giant X-ray machines you go through in arrivals.
Yes, they have them at entry points (Airports, ports and it mentioned railway stations (Eurostar?).
I watched a programme about it once.
They have detectors on some roads and there are now 'mobile units' that drive about.
On the programme the alarm went off, but they were able to track the bandit vehicle using a secondary detector, it turned out to be something naturally occurring in the metal but was high enough to set the alarm off.

To be also considered is the effect on the Iranian Railways, of the counter strike.... I wonder if they have a set of emergency schedules for every eventuality?
They had one of our pacers once didn't they?
Maybe we could flog our old ones to them ;)
 

RT4038

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They had one of our pacers once didn't they?
Maybe we could flog our old ones to them ;)
Being virtually indestructible, they should be kept in Strategic Reserve in a safe point (Box Tunnel?) , so we can quickly press into service on any undamaged sections. I think Iran bought several, so maybe the country to recover quickest could be either.
 

Logan Carroll

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Does anyone follow the Atomic Hobo podcast? Plenty of detail on various nuclear apocalypse scenarios to give you nightmares, including one on what the plans were for the railways over the years...


(And yes, the subject of the S******** R****** does come up)
I absolutely despise this podcast.

The host is painfully unfunny and treats nuclear war planning as a “quirky” weird interest rather than a genuinely important part of human history.

I love that she’s attracting attention to a subject which i care greatly about but reading War Plan UK will give you much more information without inflated ego and inane personal stories
 
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Pacers as the new strategic asset? I've heard of worse ideas. Presumably Russia has Pacerskis hidden somewhere in the Urals...


I absolutely despise this podcast.

The host is painfully unfunny and treats nuclear war planning as a “quirky” weird interest rather than a genuinely important part of human history.

I love that she’s attracting attention to a subject which i care greatly about but reading War Plan UK will give you much more information without inflated ego and inane personal stories
I agree. She seems to be one of a subset of people interested in this stuff who kinda take an "oh-so-cool" perspective and roll out with anecdotes, but don't engage with it any deeper than that. It feels like a series of "did you know?" facts.
 

Vespa

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The Government has imagined this, which is why it would be incredibly difficult to get one into the country for anyone who did have nefarious intentions. For example everyone entering through an airport walks through a radiation detector, they are those things that are like giant X-ray machines you go through in arrivals.
Of course the MI sections have gamed this scenario and is within the scope of this thread.

As we all know, they dropped the ball on London 7/7 tube bombing, as the IRA said about the Brighton bombing "Yes we were unlucky, but we only have to be lucky once, you have to be lucky all the time"
 

Scotrail314209

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What is damn scary at the minute is that things seem peaceful right now, but nuclear war is a very real risk.

I think a lot of people would be in denial should it happen as the shock would just be too many to comprehend. Depending on the strength of the attack, you might be able to rebuild, but in that scenario the railways would be the last thing on the government's mind.

What I can see happening, is after they get a sense of casualty and the scope of the damage and once there are habitable bubbles for people to live in, I can see very basic single track railways purely for the method of transporting essential goods. We wouldn't see passenger services return for quite some time, if ever.
 

Vespa

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And no marshal plan this time as America will be dealing with their problems to be bothered about the rest of the world.
 

6Gman

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How would today’s railway’s cope with the impeding threat of a nuclear attack from a major superpower and what if any service would resume afterwards?
A Rail Replacement Bus service will be provided.
 

21C101

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How would today’s railway’s cope with the impeding threat of a nuclear attack from a major superpower and what if any service would resume afterwards?
They would wheel out the strategic reserve from the depot in Box Tunnel. Being steam it wouldn't be destroyed in its bunker by the EMP.

More seriously, Hiroshima got the trams running again within a week or so.

If we have a major exchange of nuclear weapons down here on the planet then I don't think the functioning of the railways would be at forefront of anyone's concerns - the survivors would have very different priorities.



If you are worried about the effect of a putative nuclear HEMP weapon then this might be worth a listen: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000pm0h

To summarize: most people actually responsible for protecting critical power and communications networks don't rate HEMP as a serious threat but a large body of fiction has evolved around it and it is a very popular idea with right-wing Preppers and gun enthusiasts.
The USSRs continued use of thermionic valves decades after the west stopped using them wasn't because they didn't have the capability to switch.
 
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Tio Terry

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I would have thought that any serious nuclear attack on the UK would result in the Military banning all civilian movement anyway.
 

rf_ioliver

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Was there any mention of the S******** R****** in that archive material?
You beat me to it....

An interesting fact about Finnish railways is that they were built quite far in land to prevent an attack (invariably from the sea) reaching the railways. Of course the invention of aviation introduced other issues later but still interesting to think how that the idea of preserving infrastructure after an attack resulted in the development of the current railway network here.

t.

Ian
 

Scotrail314209

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I've got a feeling, in a nuclear attack railways might actually be a target. When you think about it, it can help with badly crippling infrastructure as they won't be able to send goods around or transport personnel as well as evacuating citizens.

I'd imagine the WCML and several points on the WCML would be a target as it runs through some substantial places.
 

Sad Sprinter

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I've got a feeling, in a nuclear attack railways might actually be a target. When you think about it, it can help with badly crippling infrastructure as they won't be able to send goods around or transport personnel as well as evacuating citizens.

I'd imagine the WCML and several points on the WCML would be a target as it runs through some substantial places.

In the film Threads I recall Crewe was attacked by a groundburst-presumably to destroy the railway junction.
 

21C101

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In the film Threads I recall Crewe was attacked by a groundburst-presumably to destroy the railway junction.
A friend of mine watched that in a cinema in Sheffield. A huge roaring cheer erupted when Sheffields Woolworths got nuked.
 

Trackman

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In the film Threads I recall Crewe was attacked by a groundburst-presumably to destroy the railway junction.
I thought it was Sheffield in 'Threads'.
Talking about 'Threads', it all kicked off in Iran that started WW3!
 

Vespa

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War is won by logistics, destroy the enemies ability to move troops and equipment, destroy munition factories and food supplies, far more effective than attacking motivated troops directly for the effort expended.

I thought it was Sheffield in 'Threads'.
Talking about 'Threads', it all kicked off in Iran that started WW3!
I watched that film and it clearly demonstrated the futility of a nuclear war in the most realistic way possible, it actually influenced politicians in Russia and America to start talking about descalating nuclear tensions.

A rare example of a film making a strong impact in society.

"Cathy come home" was another such film that changed thinking about homelessness, Shelter charity was set up because of it.
 
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Scotrail314209

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I've never seen anything so terrifying and relentlessly grim! It's a superb work, though, the sort of thing the BBC was really good at making.

Having never seen the film, but seen the iconic bombing scene... it just invokes terror. I don't actually want to see the full thing as that bombing scene is enough to demonstrate the destruction.
 

Gloster

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You beat me to it....

An interesting fact about Finnish railways is that they were built quite far in land to prevent an attack (invariably from the sea) reaching the railways. Of course the invention of aviation introduced other issues later but still interesting to think how that the idea of preserving infrastructure after an attack resulted in the development of the current railway network here.

t.

Ian

The main railway up through Sweden to the far north was also built far inland so as to be out of the reach of the guns of the Russian Navy.
 
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