Overcrowding on rural/'regional' services

[southern442]

The main headlines about overcrowding on railways are always with regards to commuter services into city centres (or TPE trains to Manchester Airport!). Traditionally a far less important issue is services on more rural lines with not very many commuters that find themselves being overcrowded. The conditions are not crush-loading like we have on commuter services, but it can be nonetheless uncomfortable, as well as sustained throughout the day rather than just concentrated on peak hours, and as these services are predominantly leisure orientated (especially now) it is important for persuading users to stick with the train (let alone being important for a modal shift) that journeys are as pleasant as possible.

I have noticed in several places that this is the case, one such example being the St. Ives line (full and standing with a 4-car service in the summer). More recently I travelled on the Blackpool South line, and despite being a 4-car 156 there were some passengers standing.

Anecdotal evidence I know, but I don't even think these services are even considered when overcrowding data is published. Does anyone else have experiences like this to share? I would particularly like to hear from regular users who have a better idea of what day-to-day service is like on specific lines.

 

[RPI]

The Exmouth to Paignton services can get rammed, particularly in the afternoon/evening peak, often trains that are booked formation can be full and standing.

You mention the St Ives branch which is just ridiculous during the peak summer daytime, but there are very few commuters on that line and I don't think any school traffic at all, St Ives seems to be quite reliably a four car 150 right from Easter to October half term, if I were cynical I would suggest that this is because of all the rich second home owners who live down there, but thankfully I'm not cynical....

 

[railfan99]

The Exmouth to Paignton services can get rammed, particularly in the afternoon/evening peak, often trains that are booked formation can be full and standing.

You mention the St Ives branch which is just ridiculous during the peak summer daytime, but there are very few commuters on that line and I don't think any school traffic at all, St Ives seems to be quite reliably a four car 150 right from Easter to October half term, if I were cynical I would suggest that this is because of all the rich second home owners who live down there, but thankfully I'm not cynical....

St Erth to St Ives is a very short journey, and even if to/from Penzance, it's not much longer.

 

[The exile]

St Erth to St Ives is a very short journey, and even if to/from Penzance, it's not much longer.

And there’s not really very much that can be done about it in the short term

 

[daodao]

I recall a crammed first generation dmu on the Cambrian Coast line in August 1974 when travelling from Minffordd to Tywyn and back. My dad decided that it would be pleasanter in first class (which still existed then); it was, and we were able to enjoy the panoramic views for which this line is well known.

 

[Snow1964]

At certain times of the day, the 158, 165, 166 Diesels at Bath are rammed, and station churn can be upto 5 minutes. (Trains to Portsmouth, Wessex, Cardiff, Worcestershire etc) They vary between 2car and 5car, with 3car units being most common.

 

[Springs Branch]

I recall a crammed first generation dmu on the Cambrian Coast line in August 1974 when travelling from Minffordd to Tywyn and back. My dad decided that it would be pleasanter in first class (which still existed then); it was, and we were able to enjoy the panoramic views for which this line is well known.

I remember a similar thing that same year on the Windermere branch - in the era when branch line trains almost always seemed quiet and you never doubted you'd get a seat.

Arriving at Windermere station, I was very apprehensive seeing the size of the crowd already waiting on the platform, especially considering the number of suitcases, large framed rucksacks and other gear accompanying the punters.

When the 2-car DMU came trundling in from Oxenholme, I was seriously worried we wouldn't even get on board. In fact everyone did - and we even got seats (without upgrading to First) - but it was pretty packed. I recall being impressed by how many people one 'low density' Derby 108 could actually suck up, without ending with a Mumbai "Super Dense Crush Load" situation.

 

[gazzaa2]

Many TFW services.

Problem with the rural/regional services is unless the service starts or ends in London, there's not likely to be many carriages (or frequent trains) so the capacity just isn't there. One train an hour that's two carriages as an example.

 

[dk1]

Just had a week in South Devon & things are much better these days with improved frequencies & most local services 3 & 4 cars in length.

Back home & the overcrowding on the Cromer/Sheringham branch as well as the East Suffolk can be quite bad when a 755/3 is used. Makes me wonder how on earth we coped with 153s back in the day.

 

[yorksrob]

I was recently on a crush loaded coastway west saturday service into Brighton. Yes, not a rural branch, but not a commuter service either.

Middlesborough - Whitby is a regular bugbear of mine - I have often experienced people standing down the aisles by the time you get to Battersby on the 10:20 departure. This is only really an issue on Saturdays when there is a single 2 carriage DMU (the rest of the week it's 4 carriages due to the Grange Hill crowd).

Both are instances that could be easily rectified with longer trains (unlike St Ives where 4 carriages is the limit).

 

[Bald Rick]

More recently I travelled on the Blackpool South line, and despite being a 4-car 156 there were some passengers standing.

The Blackpool South line has been overcrowded at certain times of day / year for as long as I can remember. Typically:

towards Blackpool: Friday afternoons and evenings, Saturday mornings (most of the year except winter, but especially so in school hols), plus most mid mornings in school hols from easter to September. Not particularly weather dependent, oddly.

from Blackpool: Monday mornings, especially in summer. The return traffic tends to spread out more, with families coming back earlier than the drinkers.

Only once have I been unable to board (at Kirkham, Preston Bound, Monday morning in August, several years ago) although a quiet word with the guard saw me into the rear cab

 

[1955LR]

B,ham International to Pwllheli last Friday ( 19/08/22) was a 2 car unit, full and standing when it arrived at Newtown . Due at 12:04 and left at 12:52 . I aborted my Journey as it was too full for me to travel.

 

[Dr Day]

AFAIK the 'published' overcrowding data reflects a full year, therefore the seasonal overcrowding being discussed here won't necessarily show up. Also trains primarily designed for leisure traffic are less likely to be able to absorb the some volumes of standees as stock more intended for the commuter market. Must admit I can't recall seeing the usual 'Britain's busiest train is the XXX' type headlines since Covid, so would be interesting to see what recent data does say.

 

[delt1c]

Another result of privatisation, why put on extra carriages which increase the costs. Minimal costs maximum profit

 

[railfan99]

Another result of privatisation, why put on extra carriages which increase the costs. Minimal costs maximum profit

I can assure you, unfortunately, many government-owned railways worldwide these days also run with minimal spare cars available.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can assure you, unfortunately, many government-owned railways worldwide these days also run with minimal spare cars available.

DB seems to have flogged off all the old Bm235 and N-wagen (Silberling) stock they used to hold spare to charter operators, and charters it back with quite some regularity.

 

[Bald Rick]

Another result of privatisation, why put on extra carriages which increase the costs. Minimal costs maximum profit

Or, why put on extra carriages that don’t exist?

 

[duncanp]

Many TFW services.

Problem with the rural/regional services is unless the service starts or ends in London, there's not likely to be many carriages (or frequent trains) so the capacity just isn't there. One train an hour that's two carriages as an example.

Or one carriage, as happened when I travelled from Church Stretton to Shrewsbury a couple of weeks ago.

I can assure you, unfortunately, many government-owned railways worldwide these days also run with minimal spare cars available.

As evidenced by this extract from an article on the France 3 website from December last year, regarding trains in the Hauts De France region.

I don't think the situation has massively improved since then, so at least there should be a certain familiarity with the situation whne I go there on holiday next month.

Lorsque les trains parviennent à arriver en gare, les voyageurs découvrent régulièrement qu'ils manquent des rames. "Lorsque le train est supprimé, on attend le suivant. Alors celui-là roule, certes, mais il est plus petit. Souvent c'est une seule rame au lieu de deux. Les gens doivent donc rester debout ou pire ne peuvent pas monter dans le train"

"...when the trains manage to arrive at the station, travellers frequently discover that they are missing carriages. When the train is cancelled, you wait for the next one. So that one runs, but it is smaller. Often there is one train set instead of two. People therefore have to stand, or worse still cannot board the train..."

 

[Snow1964]

DfT has just revealed that rail crowding statistics will be released at 09:30 on 22nd September

Rail passenger numbers and crowding statistics in several major cities in England and Wales during 2021.

Rail passenger numbers and crowding on weekdays in major cities in England and Wales: 2021 (revised)

Rail passenger numbers and crowding statistics in several major cities in England and Wales during 2021.

www.gov.uk

So whilst it might pick up something like overcrowded Wessex service at somewhere like Bath, isn’t really going to show very busy seasonal branch lines

 

[156421]

Another one which probably won't be captured in the overcrowding stats - Cumbrian Coast line heading towards Carlisle on Saturday late morning/early afternoons (seems to be exclusively the preserve of 2 car 156 units), usually "full and standing" due to day drinkers making their pilgrimage to Carlisle, add in a Carlisle United home game and it very quickly becomes "crush loading", typically no seats available any further north than Whitehaven, passengers at Wigton/Dalston being left behind due to not physically being able to board.

 

[saxsux]

Just had a week in South Devon & things are much better these days with improved frequencies & most local services 3 & 4 cars in length.

Back home & the overcrowding on the Cromer/Sheringham branch as well as the East Suffolk can be quite bad when a 755/3 is used. Makes me wonder how on earth we coped with 153s back in the day.

Mmmm! I've travelled the Cromer/Sheringham branch to visit family a fair bit recently and been surprised at the level of crowding. Sometimes full with people standing, even on a 755/4.

I imagine there's a bit of induced demand, the 755s being so much better than the old stock, it's attracted a lot more people to travel. Frankly, I still prefer a crowded 755 over a South Devon 150 any day!

Platforms 5/6 at Norwich can feel very crowded now with Lowestoft, Yarmouth and Sheringham trains arriving and departing quite close to each other.

 

[delt1c]

I can assure you, unfortunately, many government-owned railways worldwide these days also run with minimal spare cars available.

Because they are no longer operated for the public , but either for profit of private companies or to reduce goverment costs. what seems to be forgotten is that increased use of public transport reduces omissions and helps growth of the economy long term

 

[Ash Bridge]

Because they are no longer operated for the public , but either for profit of private companies or to reduce goverment costs. what seems to be forgotten is that increased use of public transport reduces omissions and helps growth of the economy long term

Like Button needed here!

 

[delt1c]

Like Button needed here!

agree

 

[Western Lord]

Obviously more people should be encouraged to use their cars, leaving more room on the trains for Rail UK forum posters.
People on here are often very keen to "get people out of their cars" but increased use of trains, funnily enough, leads to them becoming more crowded, and you cannot magic up some extra carriages. If even a small percentage of car travel transferred to rail, well, as the man said "you ain't seen nothing yet".

 

[ItsGrimUpNorth]

Another one which probably won't be captured in the overcrowding stats - Cumbrian Coast line heading towards Carlisle on Saturday late morning/early afternoons (seems to be exclusively the preserve of 2 car 156 units), usually "full and standing" due to day drinkers making their pilgrimage to Carlisle, add in a Carlisle United home game and it very quickly becomes "crush loading", typically no seats available any further north than Whitehaven, passengers at Wigton/Dalston being left behind due to not physically being able to board.

You could add the trains on the Tyne Valley in both directions at a similar time (Newcastle bound often full and standing on departure between 0900 and 1200), and the inbounds from the S&C and Dumfries.

Busy old place is Carlisle Station on a Saturday morning into early afternoon!

 

[Alfie1014]

Another result of privatisation, why put on extra carriages which increase the costs. Minimal costs maximum profit

No different in BR days when the Treasury required 2 new next gen DMU cars replaced 3 first gen DMUs.

 

[dk1]

Mmmm! I've travelled the Cromer/Sheringham branch to visit family a fair bit recently and been surprised at the level of crowding. Sometimes full with people standing, even on a 755/4.

I imagine there's a bit of induced demand, the 755s being so much better than the old stock, it's attracted a lot more people to travel. Frankly, I still prefer a crowded 755 over a South Devon 150 any day!

Platforms 5/6 at Norwich can feel very crowded now with Lowestoft, Yarmouth and Sheringham trains arriving and departing quite close to each other.

Yes it's like the pandemic never happened on the East Anglian branch lines. Odd to think the Stadlers have been operating over 3 years now on these routes. Such a game changer.

 

[Andrew*Debbie]

Does anyone else have experiences like this to share?

TfW along the North Wales coast is often very full, especially in the summer. Our last trip there was no standing room from Abergele to Chester. Passengers were left on the platforms.

I'm hoping the 197s will be a real improvment. Perhaps someone someday somehow will fix the AWC disaster.

We took the car to Chester a few days ago, even thought it wasn't a strike day.

 

[Clarence Yard]

No different in BR days when the Treasury required 2 new next gen DMU cars replaced 3 first gen DMUs.

Exactly, the spare coaches/units on BR were almost all eliminated in the period before Privatisation. It was a process that had been steadily going on since the 1960’s and by 1994 there was hardly anything left.

It had nothing to do with privatisation or private operators. The Treasury view has always been that this extra traffic should be priced off, so as to reduce the need for extra stock. Every time you renewed a fleet in BR days they were looking for savings in fleet numbers.

When I was involved in a recent GWR direct award, we had real problems with the DfT over the St Ives - initially they didn’t see the need for a second unit in summer and wanted to rip another 150 unit off GWR!

When I was on Anglia and putting extra local services in, we were accused by the SRA of being “too close to the customer”!