Overground Old Oak Common Consultation

[Chris125]

A consultation has been launched on a future London Overground interchange at Old Oak Common: click here for information and to reply


Through the Options Assessment Report they've narrowed it down to three possibilities:

- Option A would involve one new station to the west of the HS2 station box, accessed by Clapham services from the south via a viaduct between North Pole Depot and Wormwood Scrubs

- Option B would entail the same station location, but Clapham trains would enter from the north via existing freight lines.

- Option C would involve two new stations west and north east of the HS2 station box, serving the Richmond and Clapham services separately on their existing routes.


Better detailed maps of the proposals can be found in the Forecast Passenger Use document, while a Technical Summary, Comparison Table and Service Patterns of the three options are also available.

Chris

 

[MK Tom]

None of those options seem to allow for WCML-bound West London Line services to interchange at Old Oak Common. Bit of an oversight.

 

[Chris125]

None of those options seem to allow for WCML-bound West London Line services to interchange at Old Oak Common. Bit of an oversight.

I wouldn't say so, after all those on the WCML will be served by the proposed Crossrail service via Old Oak Common and passengers for HS2 can also change at Euston, while the much more frequent Overground service will cater for those from Clapham etc.

Chris

 

[ess]

Is there a regional map showing future interchanges?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Chris125]

Is there a regional map showing future interchanges?

Is this the kind of thing you mean? Note that it doesn't include the proposed Crossrail WCML service.

Chris

 

[Cletus]

London Reconnections have done an article,so extra information to be found there.
http://www.londonreconnections.com/2014/old-oak-common-consultations-galore/

Briantist has also done a map for 2050 http://ukfree.tv/styles/images/2014/Tube2050/London Infrastucture Plan 2050 Transport v6.svg

 

[Class 170101]

None of those options seem to allow for WCML-bound West London Line services to interchange at Old Oak Common. Bit of an oversight.

In the Options assessments report the first two options (2.3.1 and 2.3.2) it would be possible to access the WCML via Down and Up Crickwood lines and Acton Canal Wharf and re-join the Willesden Relief lines at Willesden No.7 Junction subject to Electrification and path availablity.

However these options are not considered according to the report.

 

[Olaf]

The options put forward are pretty poor; some of those in the options document would appear more appropriate for what could become a new major interchange for London. Option 5a for example seems more appropriate for the long-term.

 

[JamesRowden]

I wouldn't say so, after all those on the WCML will be served by the proposed Crossrail service via Old Oak Common and passengers for HS2 can also change at Euston, while the much more frequent Overground service will cater for those from Clapham etc.

Chris

How do you know that potential WCML Crossrail services would call at Old Oak Common?

 

[HowardGWR]

Is this the kind of thing you mean? Note that it doesn't include the proposed Crossrail WCML service.

Chris

Thanks Chris. Yes that is the point; at the moment we only have a suggestion. Seems sensible though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just an additional comment that I have felt uncertain about for some time. If you look at the various options, does not the situation of the Wellshouse Road estate become intolerable from a humanitarian viewpoint?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Another comment -decent travolator access needed with Option C from these overground stations?

 

[Olaf]

T
Just an additional comment that I have felt uncertain about for some time. If you look at the various options, does not the situation of the Wellshouse Road estate become intolerable from a humanitarian viewpoint?

That area is ear-marked for redevelopment.

 

[NotATrainspott]

How do you know that potential WCML Crossrail services would call at Old Oak Common?

The junction would be west of Old Oak Common so the trains would have to pass the platforms if they didn't call there. The Dudding Hill Line link has such a tight curve that they would be crawling past.

 

[33Hz]

See also

http://www.london.gov.uk/priorities/planning/publications/park-royal-planning-framework

http://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/TR138887 Old Oak_doc_web.pdf

 

[Chris125]

How do you know that potential WCML Crossrail services would call at Old Oak Common?

It's an assumption based on TfL's proposals and the DfT's recent announcement which stated "passengers from key commuter towns... could save up to 15 minutes on their journey times via a new rail link between Old Oak Common and the West Coast Main Line"

Chris

 

[JamesRowden]

It's an assumption based on TfL's proposals and the DfT's recent announcement which stated "passengers from key commuter towns... could save up to 15 minutes on their journey times via a new rail link between Old Oak Common and the West Coast Main Line"

Chris

I wonder if there needs to be more joined up thinking between the WCML Crossrail proposal and this London Overground proposal.

I'm just wondering if the WCML Crossrail and the WCML Southern services could have their own Old Oak Common station on the West London Line to the east of Option C's West London Line Overground station with a bridge/tunnel linking the South of this station to the GWML relief tracks. If the chord that I'm suggesting was built but no station: the WCML Crossrail services would qualify the statement:
"passengers from key commuter towns... could save up to 15 minutes on their journey times via a new rail link between Old Oak Common and the West Coast Main Line" without stopping at Old Oak Common.

 

[edwin_m]

It would be very unfortunate if the WCML Crossrail services didn't stop at OOC, because these trains increase the Crossrail frequency there and also provide useful connections like Watford-Heathrow without having to backtrack at Paddington.

 

[Altnabreac]

How do you know that potential WCML Crossrail services would call at Old Oak Common?

HS2 Limited held a Community Consultation meeting in the OOC area on 14 September 2014:

Map
http://assets.hs2.org.uk/sites/default/files/event_speakers/LWM-HS2-EN-MAP-010-000002-P06.pdf

Information leaflet:
http://assets.hs2.org.uk/sites/defa.../CS201_OOC event factsheet with images V5.pdf

This shows that the route is definitely intended to diverge to the west of the OOC station area.

It also provides confirmation that the planned route for the Crossrail 1 extension to WCML / Tring route is to cut through Victoria Road Industrial Estate, run parallel to the Dudding Hill line and then access the WCML via a new chord at Acton Lane.

It also appears to imply permanently severing the connection between the New North Main Line and the Great Western Main Line.

It does not share any tracks with the Dudding Hill Line so there is no capacity loss there although it may make fitting an OOC station on any Dudding Hill Line passenger service more difficult.

Also worth noting it includes a central turnback siding in the Dudding Hill Area to allow additional Crossrail trains not bound for the WCML to be turned back after having called at OOC rather than turning back after Paddington.

 

[cle]

Everything will stop at OOC which passes through. All GWML, all HS2, all Crossrail.

 

[swt_passenger]

This shows that the route is definitely intended to diverge to the west of the OOC station area.

It also provides confirmation that the planned route for the Crossrail 1 extension to WCML / Tring route is to cut through Victoria Road Industrial Estate, run parallel to the Dudding Hill line and then access the WCML via a new chord at Acton Lane.
[...]

Last but not least it shows there is no practical way to connect it to the DC lines, which seems to be a regular proposal in various forums...

 

[bangor-toad]

Last but not least it shows there is no practical way to connect it to the DC lines, which seems to be a regular proposal in various forums...

Hi there,
The Crossrail to WCML proposals show the link dropping down alongside the WCML just after the Dudding Hill line. Shortly further along the WCML (about 1/2 mile I think) there's a diveunder that lets you access the DC lines.

This is the crossover currently used by the various SN services between Milton Keynes and Croydon. Apart from being dreadfully slow at the moment it seems to all work well. I'd expect any work here would improve the track and speeds so it'd all work quite nicely.

What I don't see provision for, and I can also see no need for such a provision, is a Paddington - GWML - Old Oak - ???? - DC lines - Euston routing.

Cheers,
Mr Toad

 

[swt_passenger]

Hi there,
... Shortly further along the WCML (about 1/2 mile I think) there's a diveunder that lets you access the DC lines.

No it doesn't, not at all. The dive under comes up nowhere near the DC lines, which have no running connections on their down side, but in any case the DC lines are running on the other side of the PRDC (Post Office depot) and the rest of the various yards and sidings. By the time the SN services reach Wembley Central the DC lines are on the other side of the fast lines, having used their own underpass to get there.

 

[bangor-toad]

Fair enough... I see that the connection onto the WCML slows is easy but to access the DC lines is rather challenging...

Cheers,
Mr Toad

 

[Altnabreac]

No it doesn't, not at all. The dive under comes up nowhere near the DC lines, which have no running connections on their down side, but in any case the DC lines are running on the other side of the PRDC (Post Office depot) and the rest of the various yards and sidings. By the time the SN services reach Wembley Central the DC lines are on the other side of the fast lines, having used their own underpass to get there.

The only really practical ways to access the DC lines without tunneling involve either demolishing the PRDC depot, demolishing Wembley Train Care depot or demolishing 50 odd houses on the south side of the WCML in the Haether Park Drive area.

Given none of these are ever going to happen there isn't much point in debating whether Crossrail is better serving the WCML slows or the DC lines but I'm sure plenty of people will continue to do so...

 

[mr_jrt]

The only really practical ways to access the DC lines without tunneling involve either demolishing the PRDC depot, demolishing Wembley Train Care depot or demolishing 50 odd houses on the south side of the WCML in the Haether Park Drive area.

Given none of these are ever going to happen there isn't much point in debating whether Crossrail is better serving the WCML slows or the DC lines but I'm sure plenty of people will continue to do so...

To be fair, it's only some gardens that would be required, and certainly not 50 houses.

 

[The Planner]

Crossrail is WCML slow lines, nothing to do with the DC's.

 

[edwin_m]

You'd also need to lengthen all the DC line stations northwards to 200m for Crossrail sets, something that could be particularly challenging at Watford High Street for example. And totally unjustified by the number of people using the DC lines.

The power supply would probably need to be upgraded as well, which would probably trigger a conversion to AC.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It does not share any tracks with the Dudding Hill Line so there is no capacity loss there although it may make fitting an OOC station on any Dudding Hill Line passenger service more difficult.

Looking at the map, it looks like a sensible place for a (theoretical) new station on the Dudding Hill line would be just south of Victoria Road - minimizing the distance to the main OOC station. That's just South of the point where the proposed new lines start to run alongside the existing Dudding Hill line, so I doubt the new lines would prevent a station being built there.

 

[Altnabreac]

Looking at the map, it looks like a sensible place for a (theoretical) new station on the Dudding Hill line would be just south of Victoria Road - minimizing the distance to the main OOC station. That's just South of the point where the proposed new lines start to run alongside the existing Dudding Hill line, so I doubt the new lines would prevent a station being built there.

I would think by the time you take into account signal sighting etc, plus the need for straight platforms on a new station, you'd more likely be looking at just north of Victoria Road.

As the lines are being slewed anyway it's just a case of allowing a bit of extra space. However it does require preplanning at the current design stage to allow it to happen.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

A consultation has been launched on a future London Overground interchange at Old Oak Common: click here for information and to reply


Through the Options Assessment Report they've narrowed it down to three possibilities:

- Option A would involve one new station to the west of the HS2 station box, accessed by Clapham services from the south via a viaduct between North Pole Depot and Wormwood Scrubs

- Option B would entail the same station location, but Clapham trains would enter from the north via existing freight lines.

- Option C would involve two new stations west and north east of the HS2 station box, serving the Richmond and Clapham services separately on their existing routes.


Better detailed maps of the proposals can be found in the Forecast Passenger Use document, while a Technical Summary, Comparison Table and Service Patterns of the three options are also available.

Chris

Option A in the proposals involves quite a big diversion of the West London line, including what looks like a very tight 180-degree bend just before where it would join the North London Line. Measuring against Google maps suggests to me that the radius of this proposed bend is somewhere between 150 and 200 m (Though it was a fairly rough measurement with a ruler so could be worth someone double checking).

Can anyone with more knowledge of rail engineering comment on what kind of speed limits you can expect for that kind of bend, and how much the diversion is likely to add to WLL journey times?

 

[The Planner]

Doubt you are going to get more than 20 or 25 out of that. It also appears to curve round where the Crossrail WCML link is planned to.