Overnight Break of Journey SVR

[MichaelAMW]

Hello All,

I have lost track of the details of this issue so would be grateful for advice... As far as I can tell:

-- If I look on BRFares.com, which I presume is the Avantix fares database, it appears that for an Off-Peak Return I may break my journey overnight **If I wish** and I must resume the next day by 1200.
-- If I look on the NRE web site it seems I may only break my journey overnight if I *can't* complete my journey on the same day. This is based on looking at:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/offpeak_conditions.html

Which is it? The specific journey, as part of a semi-grand tour of the south east, is an Off-Peak return from Guildford to Bexhill, route Not Clapham Junction, and I would like to break my journey overnight at Tonbridge.

Thanks.

 

[Brucey]

That only applies on the final day of validity.

E.g. if you have a ticket valid until 9th September and you cannot complete the journey by 0430 on the 10th September, then you may continue to travel.

During the period of the ticket's validity, you are free to break/resume as you please, provided the ticket remains within it's validity.

 

[MichaelAMW]

That only applies on the final day of validity.

E.g. if you have a ticket valid until 9th September and you cannot complete the journey by 0430 on the 10th September, then you may continue to travel.

During the period of the ticket's validity, you are free to break/resume as you please, provided the ticket remains within it's validity.

Sorry, failed to mention that I'm looking at the Outward half...

 

[barrykas]

It should be noted that BR Fares is using an old version of the restriction text when it comes to the Break of Journey details.

The latest revision is as follows:

Off-Peak Singles and the outward portion of Off-Peak Returns are valid for travel on the date shown on the ticket and until 04:29 the following morning. If the journey cannot be completed in this time, the ticket may be used to continue the journey on the following day. Unless otherwise indicated in the relevant restriction code, time restrictions apply as from the initial origin station on both days. The appropriate restrictions for the actual day on which travel is being undertaken apply (for example, it may be that if day 1 is on Sunday, no restrictions apply, but on day 2, the Monday-Friday restrictions apply). All travel must be completed by 04:29 in the morning after this second day. Please note that break of journey is not permitted on some journeys, as detailed in the ticket restrictions.

Return portions of Off-Peak Return tickets are valid for travel until 04:29 on the day following the last day of validity (i.e. one calendar month from outward journey). All travel must be completed by this time.

 

[Paul Kelly]

That text is a real improvement. If that has been put into relevant systems by ATOC, I guess it will filter through to Avantix Traveller, BR Fares etc. eventually. Although disappointing to note that there has been no movement on the phrasing "if the journey cannot be completed". It really strikes me as being a restriction designed by committee, since it is open to all sorts of different interpretations as and when required!

 

[MichaelAMW]

That text is a real improvement. If that has been put into relevant systems by ATOC, I guess it will filter through to Avantix Traveller, BR Fares etc. eventually. Although disappointing to note that there has been no movement on the phrasing "if the journey cannot be completed". It really strikes me as being a restriction designed by committee, since it is open to all sorts of different interpretations as and when required!

To what extent do you think it's an improvement. Not saying I diagree with you, but the thing that appears to have been removed is the option to break overnight if you wish to, not only if you have to. So, you used to be able to go London to Penzance, on a morning train one day to Exeter, for an overnight stay, and then continue the following day, i.e. not only when it's not possible to get there on the same day.

That said, at least most "Savers" now allow break of journey on the ooutward half, which was one benefit of simplification.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Oh no sorry I didn't mean to imply it was an improvement on the old text, from before last October, which still lurks in some places (e.g. the dark corners of BRfares.com) and was very clear about overnight break of journey being allowed in all circumstances. (And incidentally, I firmly believe the new restrictions still allow that - a passenger may simply be unable to complete their journey in one day because they wish to break overnight; there is nothing in the rules to preclude that possibility.)

I was commenting that it was an improvement in clarity on the initial versions of the new text describing the restrictions, some early versions of which (taken from staff briefings) were posted here last year. The early versions were IMHO not totally clear about the removal of the "resume before 12:00" restriction, and the new effective two-day validity of the outward portions was not really emphasised. The new text that barrykas has posted is clearer from that point of view.

 

[MichaelAMW]

Oh no sorry I didn't mean to imply it was an improvement on the old text, from before last October, which still lurks in some places (e.g. the dark corners of BRfares.com) and was very clear about overnight break of journey being allowed in all circumstances. (And incidentally, I firmly believe the new restrictions still allow that - a passenger may simply be unable to complete their journey in one day because they wish to break overnight; there is nothing in the rules to preclude that possibility.)

I was commenting that it was an improvement in clarity on the initial versions of the new text describing the restrictions, some early versions of which (taken from staff briefings) were posted here last year. The early versions were IMHO not totally clear about the removal of the "resume before 12:00" restriction, and the new effective two-day validity of the outward portions was not really emphasised. The new text that barrykas has posted is clearer from that point of view.

Ah..., I see. You're talking about that ambiguity over whether the "04.29 the following morning" was intended to be the small hours of day 2 or day 3 - I seem to remember we picked over that one in the usual detail a while back.

 

[Paul Kelly]

I should probably also mention that the new text is still silent on what happens if the journey can't be completed in one day but the outward portion prohibits break of journey. Traditionally you could resume on the first train of the morning in these circumstances, and a lot of staff still seem to enforce that rule (unfortunately even for off-peak returns where the outward portion doesn't have a break of journey restriction!).

 

[John @ home]

I should probably also mention that the new text is still silent on what happens if the journey can't be completed in one day but the outward portion prohibits break of journey.

If a journey can't be completed in one day, then it is likely that at some point the passenger must leave a station to stay in overnight accommodation. Condition 16(ii) of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage tells us that this is not a break of journey. Therefore the same rules apply whether or not a break of journey is allowed.

When resuming travel on the second day, the passenger will need to observe any time restrictions in the ticket conditions. If there are none, my view is that the passenger may continue their journey by any train that day.

Useful clarification of the rules where a journey can't be completed in one day has been provided by thedbdiboy in this post and this post from the September 2011 discussion Revised NRCoC.