Oxford - Bletchley - Bedford - Cambridge (History and stuff - Not modern Construction)

[70014IronDuke]

Taken out of this thread

East-West Rail (EWR): Oxford-Bletchley construction progress

Indeed there was (post #450). I really must pay closer attention! I think given the large number of other “3 arch overbridges” they will have just removed the north side embankment through it to make room for the third track that you mentioned in post #535. As far as the “before” drawings have...

www.railforums.co.uk

As I only later realised this was for CONSTRUCTION of Oxford - Bletchley, (and a jolly good thread too, if I may say so), and I was helping it go off topic.

Also I have a map from a rail magazine ( and an actual track atlas from years prior to the beeching cuts), both show this line originally was not a mainline , yet seems to be built to allow for To my untrained eye , at least the standard of the East coast mainline ( for example - I'm not too clued up on the real technical side of railways , just learning , in addition to the 00 gauge model rail, my interest is more toward this sort of thing , reversing the beeching cuts and types of trains used ).

The Bletchley-Oxford line was fairly straight, so may look good for high speed running, but it was only a branch. When closed to passengers in 1967, I believe the line speed was probably 70 mph, though I'm not sure many DMUs which worked the line managed to reach that speed very often.

So is this being built as a mainline to run for example at 110-125mph line speeds ? , I ask also because on the atlas from before closeure it appears to link to fairford near Cirencester, and Witney , Oxford is shown ( south of the line ) .

I do not know for 100% certain, but I'd bet it was never directly linked to the Witney branch. Up until the late 1950s or so the line ran into a separate, former LNWR station at Oxford, though this was adjacent to the GWR station.

Does this line have chords where it crosses the Ecml and MML?.

i think the new route from Bedford eastwards is still being worked out. Some in here will be up to date with what's going on, but if you read back in the thread you will find out a lot.

The old route had no direct, simple 'chord' with the Midland - the two routes cross at different heights south of Bedford. There was a connection from the former St Johns station to Midland Rd station through a goods yard. It was freight only.

Where the Bedford - Cambridge line crossed the ECML at Sandy, there was a west to north chord, I think installed during WW2, but it was freight only. I think it was out of use by 1960. I suppose there was some connection with the ECML south of the station at Sandy, but when it was last used is anybody's guess.

The two lines, though adjacent, were effectively run as two totally separate railways. There was next to no interchange of passengers between the branch and the ECML. The branch service was roughly 1TP2H, and the 'main line' service at Sandy was even worse.

BTW, a pedantic point, but the branch did not close because of Beeching: in fact, it was planned to be developed as a freight route avoiding London. But it never happened - except for the flyover at Bletchley.
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D6130​

Established Member​

The Bletchley-Oxford line was fairly straight, so may look good for high speed running, but it was only a branch. When closed to passengers in 1967, I believe the line speed was probably 70 mph, though I'm not sure many DMUs which worked the line managed to reach that speed very often.

In a copy of 'Modern Railways' which I have seen, there is a photo of an Oxford-Cambridge train crossing the ECML at Sandy shortly before closure in 1967 hauled by a class 24 diesel-electric loco.

 

[Falcon1200]

I do not know for 100% certain, but I'd bet it was never directly linked to the Witney branch. Up until the late 1950s or so the line ran into a separate, former LNWR station at Oxford, though this was adjacent to the GWR station.

There was a connection between the Oxford/Bletchley and Oxford/Worcester lines (which crossed over the Oxford/Banbury line on a bridge) running from Oxford Road Jc on the first route to Yarnton Jc on the second; As the Witney & Fairford line diverged from the Worcester line at Yarnton through running between Bletchley and Witney was possible, although I'm very doubtful it ever actually occurred. The link closed in 1965, and I would have to say restoration of it, or indeed the Witney branch, is extremely unlikely.

 

[RT4038]

Taken out of this thread

East-West Rail (EWR): Oxford-Bletchley construction progress

Indeed there was (post #450). I really must pay closer attention! I think given the large number of other “3 arch overbridges” they will have just removed the north side embankment through it to make room for the third track that you mentioned in post #535. As far as the “before” drawings have...

www.railforums.co.uk

As I only later realised this was for CONSTRUCTION of Oxford - Bletchley, (and a jolly good thread too, if I may say so), and I was helping it go off topic.


The Bletchley-Oxford line was fairly straight, so may look good for high speed running, but it was only a branch. When closed to passengers in 1967, I believe the line speed was probably 70 mph, though I'm not sure many DMUs which worked the line managed to reach that speed very often.



I do not know for 100% certain, but I'd bet it was never directly linked to the Witney branch. Up until the late 1950s or so the line ran into a separate, former LNWR station at Oxford, though this was adjacent to the GWR station.

i think the new route from Bedford eastwards is still being worked out. Some in here will be up to date with what's going on, but if you read back in the thread you will find out a lot.

The old route had no direct, simple 'chord' with the Midland - the two routes cross at different heights south of Bedford. There was a connection from the former St Johns station to Midland Rd station through a goods yard. It was freight only.

Where the Bedford - Cambridge line crossed the ECML at Sandy, there was a west to north chord, I think installed during WW2, but it was freight only. I think it was out of use by 1960. I suppose there was some connection with the ECML south of the station at Sandy, but when it was last used is anybody's guess.

The two lines, though adjacent, were effectively run as two totally separate railways. There was next to no interchange of passengers between the branch and the ECML. The branch service was roughly 1TP2H, and the 'main line' service at Sandy was even worse.

BTW, a pedantic point, but the branch did not close because of Beeching: in fact, it was planned to be developed as a freight route avoiding London. But it never happened - except for the flyover at Bletchley.
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D6130​

Established Member​

In a copy of 'Modern Railways' which I have seen, there is a photo of an Oxford-Cambridge train crossing the ECML at Sandy shortly before closure in 1967 hauled by a class 24 diesel-electric loco.

It is not quite true that Bedford St. Johns to Midland Road was connected by lines through a goods yard - it was a freight only line yes, and I think a east to north movement was only possible with a shunt move through trailing points from the up to the down line There was also a west to north curve , freight only (so Midland Road to Bletchley was also possible, but only in the other direction with a shunting movement from down to up line through a trailing crossover. The curves were sharp and only used in emergency for passenger traffic.

West to South at Sandy was only through the goods yard and was for interchange of small quantities of wagons, not whole trains. East to North could be achieved that way with a lot of faff!

When all the other minor railways were still open in the area it is difficult to see what traffic would use such spurs (apart from a few individual wagons?) so it was never considered worthwhile to upgrade the track and signals to passenger standards.

 

[Magdalia]

There was a connection between the Oxford/Bletchley and Oxford/Worcester lines (which crossed over the Oxford/Banbury line on a bridge) running from Oxford Road Jc on the first route to Yarnton Jc on the second; As the Witney & Fairford line diverged from the Worcester line at Yarnton through running between Bletchley and Witney was possible, although I'm very doubtful it ever actually occurred. The link closed in 1965, and I would have to say restoration of it, or indeed the Witney branch, is extremely unlikely.

This curve was occasionally used by excursion traffic going from East Anglia to Stratford-upon-Avon.

The old route had no direct, simple 'chord' with the Midland - the two routes cross at different heights south of Bedford. There was a connection from the former St Johns station to Midland Rd station through a goods yard. It was freight only.

This route was used by the summer Saturdays Derby-Yarmouth and return for a few weeks in June 1963, after the Black Bridge fire at Peterborough. Locos were changed somewhere indeterminate between Bedford Midland Road and Bedford St Johns, with steam haulage between Derby and Bedford and Brush Type 2s working between Bedford and Yarmouth.

At the same time the Walsall-Yarmouth was diverted via Bletchley, on at least one occasion it was worked by a Black 5 between Bletchley and Cambridge in each direction.

 

[RT4038]

This curve was occasionally used by excursion traffic going from East Anglia to Stratford-upon-Avon.


This route was used by the summer Saturdays Derby-Yarmouth and return for a few weeks in June 1963, after the Black Bridge fire at Peterborough. Locos were changed somewhere indeterminate between Bedford Midland Road and Bedford St Johns, with steam haulage between Derby and Bedford and Brush Type 2s working between Bedford and Yarmouth.

At the same time the Walsall-Yarmouth was diverted via Bletchley, on at least one occasion it was worked by a Black 5 between Bletchley and Cambridge in each direction.

There were never scheduled services via this link - the Derby-Yarmouth example falling within the 'emergency' category!

I don't think Black 5s were particularly unusual on the Bletchley-Cambridge section, although by '63 the normal passenger trains would have been all DMUs.

 

[Magdalia]

BTW, a pedantic point, but the branch did not close because of Beeching: in fact, it was planned to be developed as a freight route avoiding London. But it never happened - except for the flyover at Bletchley.

The freight route avoiding London was part of the Modernisation Plan. It included a marshalling yard at Swanbourne which was never built.

The Beeching Report retained Cambridge-Oxford but proposed closure of Peterborough-Leicester. The LMR were particularly keen on closing Cambridge-Bletchley and keeping Peterborough-Leicester, and the ER were not keen on using the Bletchley route for freight to avoid London.

I suspect that Cambridge University played a part too: they wanted the trackbed at Lords Bridge for the radio observatory.

I don't think Black 5s were particularly unusual on the Bletchley-Cambridge section, although by '63 the normal passenger trains would have been all DMUs.

The first train out of Cambridge in the morning, and the last one in from Bletchley in the evening, were loco hauled until spring 1967. These were the last steam hauled passenger trains at Cambridge, lasting until summer 1964 when the Cambridge turntable was removed. After that diesels were used, usually Brush Type 2s, the loco and crew workings balanced out on parcels trains.

 

[daodao]

This curve was occasionally used by excursion traffic going from East Anglia to Stratford-upon-Avon.

In the early railway era before October 1861, when through passenger trains from Wolverhampton to Paddington via the Oxford, Worcester & Wolverhampton Railway (OWWR) started running, the Yarnton loop was used for regular through services from the OWWR line to Euston.

 

[RT4038]

The freight route avoiding London was part of the Modernisation Plan. It included a marshalling yard at Swanbourne which was never built.

The Beeching Report retained Cambridge-Oxford but proposed closure of Peterborough-Leicester. The LMR were particularly keen on closing Cambridge-Bletchley and keeping Peterborough-Leicester, and the ER were not keen on using the Bletchley route for freight to avoid London.

I suspect that Cambridge University played a part too: they wanted the trackbed at Lords Bridge for the radio observatory.

i would suggest that the LMR were right in this instance. Having already proposal the line for closure before the Beeching era. The Bedford-Cambridge section was very rural, with little passenger traffic (Oxford-Bletchley was not much better, if at all). Birmingham to the Eastern Counties would have been a pretty grim journey either via Nottingham-Grantham or Bletchley!

 

[Taunton]

The line was wholly LNWR. Its principal function was to give LNWR freight access, via Bletchley, to Oxford, and to Cambridge (and Bedford). Passenger traffic, such as there was, tended to be very local. There is actually not a lot of connection, or demand, to travel between Oxford and Cambridge, and what there is often seems to prefer to route via London anyway.

The motive power on trains in BR days was notably mixed, it was one of those lines where every train seemed to have different power. I don't think the WR shed at Oxford played any part, but Bletchley, Bedford and Cambridge were all involved, for steam and diesel locos, and their area dmus, so you might find once a day Willesden Class 24s in Cambridge, or East Anglia Cravens dmus in Oxford. I think the last Great Eastern E4 2-4-0 had a turn on the line from Cambridge shed.

I believe the principal driver behind the London Midland wanting to descope/close the line was the flat crossing at Bletchley, right across the WCML there. Sure, funds were eventually found for the white-elephant flyover there, but given the traffic, such as it was, on the line, very little, passenger or freight, actually went straight across without serving or connecting at Bletchley anyway.

I have always felt it unfortunate that in early days the Northampton to Bedford line fell into the Midland Railway. Sure, it gave the Midland freight access to Northampton, but if it had gone into the LNWR instead it would have formed a useful through route Birmingham-Rugby-Northampton-Bedford-Cambridge. And it was never developed as such after 1923.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

I have always felt it unfortunate that in early days the Northampton to Bedford line fell into the Midland Railway. Sure, it gave the Midland freight access to Northampton, but if it had gone into the LNWR instead it would have formed a useful through route Birmingham-Rugby-Northampton-Bedford-Cambridge. And it was never developed as such after 1923.

That thought has often occurred to me too.

 

[ashkeba]

I have always felt it unfortunate that in early days the Northampton to Bedford line fell into the Midland Railway. Sure, it gave the Midland freight access to Northampton, but if it had gone into the LNWR instead it would have formed a useful through route Birmingham-Rugby-Northampton-Bedford-Cambridge. And it was never developed as such after 1923.

Why would they? LNWR had Northampton to Peterborough so could have developed Birmingham Rugby Northampton Peterborough and worked with GER to connect to March, Ely and Cambridge which would have had more connections, or the GNR into Lincolnshire or the M&GN network, but they nerve did. The northern parts of East Anglia rarely seems to interest London companies.

 

[daodao]

Why would they? LNWR had Northampton to Peterborough so could have developed Birmingham Rugby Northampton Peterborough and worked with GER to connect to March, Ely and Cambridge which would have had more connections, or the GNR into Lincolnshire or the M&GN network, but they nerve did. The northern parts of East Anglia rarely seems to interest London companies.

The main LNWR through route to East Anglia was (Birmingham New St -) Rugby - Market Harborough - Peterborough East (- East Anglia via GER).

 

[Taunton]

None of those options serve Bedford or Cambridge, which this way are usefully in a direct line. Far more expresses served Rugby than Bletchley, the latter forming a thinly served but apparently useful connection from Cambridge to the North-West, etc. Apparently the one significant train from Cambridge was an evening one, which connected at Bletchley with the single Scottish overnight service which stopped there, particularly for the mails but also for long distance passengers.

 

[Magdalia]

The line was wholly LNWR. Its principal function was to give LNWR freight access, via Bletchley, to Oxford, and to Cambridge (and Bedford). Passenger traffic, such as there was, tended to be very local. There is actually not a lot of connection, or demand, to travel between Oxford and Cambridge, and what there is often seems to prefer to route via London anyway.

The motive power on trains in BR days was notably mixed, it was one of those lines where every train seemed to have different power. I don't think the WR shed at Oxford played any part, but Bletchley, Bedford and Cambridge were all involved, for steam and diesel locos, and their area dmus, so you might find once a day Willesden Class 24s in Cambridge, or East Anglia Cravens dmus in Oxford. I think the last Great Eastern E4 2-4-0 had a turn on the line from Cambridge shed.

I believe the principal driver behind the London Midland wanting to descope/close the line was the flat crossing at Bletchley, right across the WCML there. Sure, funds were eventually found for the white-elephant flyover there, but given the traffic, such as it was, on the line, very little, passenger or freight, actually went straight across without serving or connecting at Bletchley anyway.

I think it was much more common to get B1s at Oxford than Halls at Cambridge, but LM locos dominated.

The DMUs used were mostly Bletchley based.

I doubt that the E4 ever went that way. Cambridge steam drivers reckoned that the Bedford line was the hardest climb out of Cambridge, tougher than either of the London main lines. The E4 was mainly used on the Mildenhall and Colchester routes, the sort of work that was taken over by the German railbuses.

It is definitely the case that trains crossing on the level at Bletchley was a negative factor for the LMR, especially after electrification, which is why so few passenger trains worked through between Cambridge and Oxford.

The main LNWR through route to East Anglia was (Birmingham New St -) Rugby - Market Harborough - Peterborough East (- East Anglia via GER).

Indeed, though it was more of a GER route to the West Midlands than the other way round, and about 10 miles shorter than the current route via Leicester. Before 1959 there was the M&GN too!

 

[daodao]

Before 1959 there was the M&GN too!

As the company name implies, that was a link via the Midland Railway, routed via Bourne and Leicester London Road to Birmingham New Street, and somewhat off topic for this thread!

 

[70014IronDuke]

D6130​

Established Member​

In a copy of 'Modern Railways' which I have seen, there is a photo of an Oxford-Cambridge train crossing the ECML at Sandy shortly before closure in 1967 hauled by a class 24 diesel-electric loco.

Was it an Oxford - Cambridge, or, as I suspect, a Cambridge - Oxford train? If the latter, it was probably the 07.30 ish to Bletchley, not Oxford. Left Sandy around 08.20.

 

[RT4038]

Why would they? LNWR had Northampton to Peterborough so could have developed Birmingham Rugby Northampton Peterborough and worked with GER to connect to March, Ely and Cambridge which would have had more connections, or the GNR into Lincolnshire or the M&GN network, but they nerve did. The northern parts of East Anglia rarely seems to interest London companies.

There was only a couple of through trains per day Birmingham-Rugby-Market Harborough-Peterborough, one going to Ely and one to Lowestoft up to closure, so the flow can't have been seen as very important.

 

[70014IronDuke]

There was a connection between the Oxford/Bletchley and Oxford/Worcester lines (which crossed over the Oxford/Banbury line on a bridge) running from Oxford Road Jc on the first route to Yarnton Jc on the second; As the Witney & Fairford line diverged from the Worcester line at Yarnton through running between Bletchley and Witney was possible, although I'm very doubtful it ever actually occurred. The link closed in 1965, and I would have to say restoration of it, or indeed the Witney branch, is extremely unlikely.

Of course, the Worcester company had planned to run into Euston via Bletchley! I'd forgotten that. (Did they ever run that way, or did they sort it out with the GWR before doing so and run directly into Oxford and onwards?) I must have seen that line, but I'd forgotten about it.

It is not quite true that Bedford St. Johns to Midland Road was connected by lines through a goods yard -

Well, if it looks like a goods yard, and Jinties shunt trucks about like they think they are in a goods yard, what else do you call it?

In fact, I think were officially two yards/transfer sidings - the one closest to St Johns being originally LNW, and the one closer to Midland Rd being Midland.

it was a freight only line yes, and I think a east to north movement was only possible with a shunt move through trailing points from the up to the down line

In steam years, there were usually three unfitted mineral trains a day - 40 or 50 wagons - from Wellingboro to Goldington Power station, and back with empties. Usually with 8Fs, but occasionally with 9Fs when at Wellingboro, and towards the end once in a blue moon with 5MTs. I'm pretty sure they did not have to faff about reversing over trailing points to gain access to/from the LNW line. These were later Cl 45 hauled, of course, the route being kept to the power station until the early 80s? (82, perhaps?)

There was also a west to north curve , freight only (so Midland Road to Bletchley was also possible, but only in the other direction with a shunting movement from down to up line through a trailing crossover. The curves were sharp and only used in emergency for passenger traffic.

My feeling is the north to east curve was the sharper. I did see the odd 9F over that, but I suspect they may have banned their use at some point, or simply not diagrammed 9Fs over the route.

West to South at Sandy was only through the goods yard and was for interchange of small quantities of wagons, not whole trains. East to North could be achieved that way with a lot of faff!

When all the other minor railways were still open in the area it is difficult to see what traffic would use such spurs (apart from a few individual wagons?) so it was never considered worthwhile to upgrade the track and signals to passenger standards.

I'm sure that is correct. This was partly the problem, so many routes crossing the country going north from London, but none really ideal, connecting really sizeable places, or reasonably fast, until you got to the Birmingham - Nuneaton - Leicester - Stamford - Peterboro line.

The first train out of Cambridge in the morning, and the last one in from Bletchley in the evening, were loco hauled until spring 1967. These were the last steam hauled passenger trains at Cambridge, lasting until summer 1964 when the Cambridge turntable was removed. After that diesels were used, usually Brush Type 2s, the loco and crew workings balanced out on parcels trains.

I think you have mixed up the histories here a bit. The first bit is correct - until closure. BUT, originally this was a Cambridge diagram. When I first came along, in 1960, it was usually a B1, and then increasingly, a Brush2. It was sometimes the 'glamorous' coloured ones - the blue or orange locos D5578/9.

Up to about 1963 (but may have been 64), the loco returned on an afternoon parcels train, leaving Bletchley at about 14.30.

But then, somebody in ER control presumably decided that this was poor utilisation of a shiny new Brush 2, and it became a Bletchley loco diagram, usually a Black 5 or Standard 4. The loco stabled overnight at Cambridge. Sometimes it was a Class 24 of course, and when Cambridge shed closed to steam (late 65?) it was always a Cl 24, I'm pretty sure right to the end.

 

[Magdalia]

There was only a couple of through trains per day Birmingham-Rugby-Market Harborough-Peterborough, one going to Ely and one to Lowestoft up to closure, so the flow can't have been seen as very important.

In that era very few long distance cross country through services ran more than once a day.

And a lot of them took most of the day to complete the journey.

The daily Yarmouth-Birmingham and return train was considered important, sufficiently so to have a buffet car. In East Anglia the only more important cross country train was the North Country Continental.

There was also a Harwich to Rugby that did not have a balancing working going the other way.

And just before the introduction of the Ely DMU, there was a Birmingham to Cambridge and return.

Getting back to Cambridge-Oxford, the two relatively fast through trains in each direction were introduced in 1962. Before that there was no real attempt to provide for long distance journeys.

 

[RT4038]

In steam years, there were usually three unfitted mineral trains a day - 40 or 50 wagons - from Wellingboro to Goldington Power station, and back with empties. Usually with 8Fs, but occasionally with 9Fs when at Wellingboro, and towards the end once in a blue moon with 5MTs. I'm pretty sure they did not have to faff about reversing over trailing points to gain access to/from the LNW line. These were later Cl 45 hauled, of course, the route being kept to the power station until the early 80s? (82, perhaps?)

Quite possibly a 'wrong line' move was permitted from Bedford no.2 signalbox (by the Ouse Bridge) through the Down platform and onto the connecting spur? There was certainly no facing connection in the vicinity of St. John's Station or from the Up platform onto the Midland Road spur. The train service on the Cambridge line was sparse enough to have allowed for this.

When the Cambridge line was closed no.2 signalbox was abolished and the Up line removed from there to St. John's Station. Goldington power station empties, as you say then hauled by Peaks, used the remaining Down line and accessed the spur directly.

 

[Falcon1200]

Of course, the Worcester company had planned to run into Euston via Bletchley! I'd forgotten that. (Did they ever run that way, or did they sort it out with the GWR before doing so and run directly into Oxford and onwards?)

The link between the Worcester and Bletchley lines was completed in 1854, and from this time Worcester trains, 4 per day, had portions both for Oxford GWR and Euston, the latter detached at Handborough. There was also a west to south curve from the Yarnton/Oxford Road link to the LNWR, allowing Worcester line trains to run into Oxford Rewley Road, however this rarely occurred. The West Midland Railway, which by now included the Worcester line, became part of the GWR in 1863 and the Euston trains then ceased.

 

[Magdalia]

I think you have mixed up the histories here a bit. The first bit is correct - until closure. BUT, originally this was a Cambridge diagram. When I first came along, in 1960, it was usually a B1, and then increasingly, a Brush2. It was sometimes the 'glamorous' coloured ones - the blue or orange locos D5578/9.

Up to about 1963 (but may have been 64), the loco returned on an afternoon parcels train, leaving Bletchley at about 14.30.

But then, somebody in ER control presumably decided that this was poor utilisation of a shiny new Brush 2, and it became a Bletchley loco diagram, usually a Black 5 or Standard 4. The loco stabled overnight at Cambridge. Sometimes it was a Class 24 of course, and when Cambridge shed closed to steam (late 65?) it was always a Cl 24, I'm pretty sure right to the end.

I think it is not so much being mixed up as there being some intermediate steps that I wasn't aware of!

Cambridge shed closed to steam in 1962, but the turntable was kept until July 1964. After 1962 there was very little steam at Cambridge, and most of it on the Bletchley line. I suggest that the Bletchley locos worked from the closure of Cambridge steam shed through to the removal of the turntable.

I was researching 1964 only last week. 73014 working 0728 Cambridge-Bletchley on 4 July 1964 is thought to be the last steam hauled passenger train at Cambridge. The last Bletchley-Cambridge was a DMU on Saturdays and I've never worked out how that balanced out.

The first three days of the following week the 2049 from Bletchley was Brush Type 2. The parcels trains went over to Brush Type 2s too. When 73014 put in a later appearance on a parcels train in November 1964 it had to return tender first.

That all comes from the British Locomotive Society journal, they had a prolific Cambridge correspondent at the time.

I also have the 1965 WTT. The parcels trains were 3M01 1133 Cambridge to Bletchley arrive 1346 and 3E09 1500 Bletchley to Cambridge. So, if the loco off the 0728 Cambridge to Bletchley returned on 3E09, presumably the loco off 3M01 worked the 2049 Bletchley to Cambridge?

I'm not sure when the parcels trains finished, but, when they did, the loco off the 0728 Cambridge to Bletchley returned to Cambridge light engine. Another light engine went out in the evening to work 2049 Bletchley to Cambridge. There was a period when this was a Finsbury Park loco off an early evening train from Kings Cross, but I've not been able to date that yet.

The loco hauled trains did not last to the end. I think they ceased at the March 1967 timetable change but have been unable to confirm that.

Another source I have suggests that, in the later years, the most common BR Type 2s on the route were the Ipswich based locos D5036-49, not the LMR locos.

 

[4COR]

The link closed in 1965, and I would have to say restoration of it, or indeed the Witney branch, is extremely unlikely.

Part of the link is now covered by the A4260 and its roundabout with the A44 near Pear Tree Interchange as well as being underneath the A34 just to the east, so yes!

The Witney branch has maybe more chance, but a bit of diversion would be needed around Eynsham (where a road takes part of the route) and Witney itself which has developed enormously around Station Lane with no real route around...

 

[daodao]

There was only a couple of through trains per day Birmingham-Rugby-Market Harborough-Peterborough, one going to Ely and one to Lowestoft up to closure, so the flow can't have been seen as very important.

While not especially important, it was the most direct and principal route from the West Midlands to East Anglia up to its closure, when the Leicester-Peterborough line took over that role, and also the role of the M&GN line, which had closed a few years earlier and was the main link from the East Midlands to Norfolk.

Of course, the Worcester company had planned to run into Euston via Bletchley! I'd forgotten that. (Did they ever run that way, or did they sort it out with the GWR before doing so and run directly into Oxford and onwards?) I must have seen that line, but I'd forgotten about it.

They did until October 1861 - please see my post #7 on this thread.

 

[RT4038]

While not especially important, it was the most direct and principal route from the West Midlands to East Anglia up to its closure, when the Leicester-Peterborough line took over that role, and also the role of the M&GN line, which had closed a few years earlier and was the main link from the East Midlands to Norfolk.

The consolidation of lines down to one route (Birmingham-Leicester-Peterborough) did enable a regular service to be operated, rather than the motley collection of local services with the odd through train that had been provided hitherto.

 

[daodao]

The consolidation of lines down to one route (Birmingham-Leicester-Peterborough) did enable a regular service to be operated, rather than the motley collection of local services with the odd through train that had been provided hitherto.

For many years (throughout the 1970s and later) after the Beeching (and pre-Beeching) closures of alternative routes, the services on the Peterborough-Leicester line were slow, infrequent and irregular, with inadequate capacity at times.

 

[Magdalia]

The consolidation of lines down to one route (Birmingham-Leicester-Peterborough) did enable a regular service to be operated, rather than the motley collection of local services with the odd through train that had been provided hitherto.

For many years (throughout the 1970s and later) after the Beeching (and pre-Beeching) closures of alternative routes, the services on the Peterborough-Leicester line were slow, infrequent and irregular, with inadequate capacity at times.

After the closure of the Peterborough East to Rugby route, the main constraint, restricting through running between East Anglia and the Midlands, was the lack of through platform capacity at Peterborough North. Two of the three through platforms were the up and down ECML and the third could only be used in the westbound direction. This was resolved with the construction of the platform 4/5 island completed in 1973. By May 1975 the service had a close resemblance to what became the loco hauled service in May 1977, but operated with DMUs.

A different version of the problem faced by the Cambridge-Oxford service crossing the WCML at Bletchley.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I think it is not so much being mixed up as there being some intermediate steps that I wasn't aware of!

Cambridge shed closed to steam in 1962, but the turntable was kept until July 1964. After 1962 there was very little steam at Cambridge, and most of it on the Bletchley line. I suggest that the Bletchley locos worked from the closure of Cambridge steam shed through to the removal of the turntable.

Well, I first did Cambridge shed in early 1961, and ER steam was virtually dead even then. Maybe 12 - 16 locos on shed, mostly GER 0-6-0s and a handful of L1s, all stored/dumped, and only one or two in steam.
I can't find any records, but from memory, I'd have said steam still worked into Cambridge after 1964 on the Bletchley line (not that I was normally at the Cambridge end). You say the turntable was removed in 64 - but what about the B1 train heat departmental loco? Did it never need turning? That must have lasted into 65 if not 66 at Cambridge?

I was researching 1964 only last week. 73014 working 0728 Cambridge-Bletchley on 4 July 1964 is thought to be the last steam hauled passenger train at Cambridge. The last Bletchley-Cambridge was a DMU on Saturdays and I've never worked out how that balanced out.

The first three days of the following week the 2049 from Bletchley was Brush Type 2. The parcels trains went over to Brush Type 2s too. When 73014 put in a later appearance on a parcels train in November 1964 it had to return tender first.

That all comes from the British Locomotive Society journal, they had a prolific Cambridge correspondent at the time.

I also have the 1965 WTT. The parcels trains were 3M01 1133 Cambridge to Bletchley arrive 1346 and 3E09 1500 Bletchley to Cambridge. So, if the loco off the 0728 Cambridge to Bletchley returned on 3E09, presumably the loco off 3M01 worked the 2049 Bletchley to Cambridge?

I'm not sure when the parcels trains finished, but, when they did, the loco off the 0728 Cambridge to Bletchley returned to Cambridge light engine. Another light engine went out in the evening to work 2049 Bletchley to Cambridge. There was a period when this was a Finsbury Park loco off an early evening train from Kings Cross, but I've not been able to date that yet.

So you are saying the working became an ER loco again? That doesn't fit my memory at all. I would have taken an interest if they were ER locos, but whatever I saw it was an LMR Cl 24.

The loco hauled trains did not last to the end. I think they ceased at the March 1967 timetable change but have been unable to confirm that.

I am 99% certain that the 07.30-ish ex Cambridge was running in July, 1967. With LMR Cl 24s.

Another source I have suggests that, in the later years, the most common BR Type 2s on the route were the Ipswich based locos D5036-49, not the LMR locos.

Well, I can't say they never worked the branch, but they were absolutely not common, and I never saw them. The only ER locos from c 1964 onwards which worked with any regularity that I saw were Brush 2s used to drag ER electric sets to/from Wolverton Works for overhaul. IIRC, these were usually weekly, I think on Tuesdays or Thursday, leaving Bletchley approx 10.30 or so. I thnk these were diverted away from the WCML from late 64 or early 65 to help electrification work.

I think it was much more common to get B1s at Oxford than Halls at Cambridge, but LM locos dominated.

Did Oxford or ex-GWR locos ever come onto the branch? I never heard of a Hall or any ex-GWR loco at Cambridge, or even Bletchley. I doubt they were cleared for the line.

The DMUs used were mostly Bletchley based.

They all were. IMX ER DMUs never worked the line, except for one Sunday turn from Cambridge departing about 09.00 I think. But the branch closed on Sundays from about 1963, and that was the end of ER DMUs.

 

[Magdalia]

Well, I first did Cambridge shed in early 1961, and ER steam was virtually dead even then. Maybe 12 - 16 locos on shed, mostly GER 0-6-0s and a handful of L1s, all stored/dumped, and only one or two in steam.
I can't find any records, but from memory, I'd have said steam still worked into Cambridge after 1964 on the Bletchley line (not that I was normally at the Cambridge end). You say the turntable was removed in 64 - but what about the B1 train heat departmental loco? Did it never need turning? That must have lasted into 65 if not 66 at Cambridge?

Yes, a few steam workings from Bletchley to Cambridge later in 1964, but mostly freight, and its not clear how the locos were turned.

The departmental B1s were stationary so did not need to be turned. They were only at Cambridge during the steam heat season and were removed to March in the summer. They were only used for 2 and a bit winters, 1963/64, 1964/65 and part of 1965/66.

So you are saying the working became an ER loco again? That doesn't fit my memory at all. I would have taken an interest if they were ER locos, but whatever I saw it was an LMR Cl 24.

Yes. The 2 passenger trains were rarely photographed so the British Locomotive Society journal is the best source. But there's a few pictures of Brush type 2s on the parcels trains. And Brush Type 2s were recorded on Bletchley shed at weekends for example see Shedbash for 12 July 1964.

The only ER locos from c 1964 onwards which worked with any regularity that I saw were Brush 2s used to drag ER electric sets to/from Wolverton Works for overhaul. IIRC, these were usually weekly, I think on Tuesdays or Thursday, leaving Bletchley approx 10.30 or so. I thnk these were diverted away from the WCML from late 64 or early 65 to help electrification work.

I'm aware of these workings but I've not been able to find any photographs.

Did Oxford or ex-GWR locos ever come onto the branch? I never heard of a Hall or any ex-GWR loco at Cambridge, or even Bletchley. I doubt they were cleared for the line.

Good point about WR steam locos and clearance. I think a few got to Bletchley but no further. A few WR diesels did work across the line including D7060 on a Weymouth-Cambridge footex.

I am 99% certain that the 07.30-ish ex Cambridge was running in July, 1967. With LMR Cl 24s.


They all were. IMX ER DMUs never worked the line, except for one Sunday turn from Cambridge departing about 09.00 I think. But the branch closed on Sundays from about 1963, and that was the end of ER DMUs.

The Sunday service ended in June 1964 and in the final years was two round trips to Bletchley from the Cambridge end. It was occasionally loco hauled particularly around Christmas and start/end of the University terms.

On the last day 0728 Cambridge-Bletchley and 2049 Bletchley-Cambridge were worked by E51296+E56454, and 2 of the Wickham sets are known to have worked the line.

Perhaps the 0728 Cambridge-Bletchley and 2049 Bletchley-Cambridge only went DMU from the end of the summer 1967 timetable. But March 1967 would be more logical, as the ER would have had more DMUs available as a result of other line closures such as Cambridge-Colchester and St Ives-March.

 

[Bevan Price]

Well, I first did Cambridge shed in early 1961, and ER steam was virtually dead even then. Maybe 12 - 16 locos on shed, mostly GER 0-6-0s and a handful of L1s, all stored/dumped, and only one or two in steam.
I can't find any records, but from memory, I'd have said steam still worked into Cambridge after 1964 on the Bletchley line (not that I was normally at the Cambridge end). You say the turntable was removed in 64 - but what about the B1 train heat departmental loco? Did it never need turning? That must have lasted into 65 if not 66 at Cambridge?

So you are saying the working became an ER loco again? That doesn't fit my memory at all. I would have taken an interest if they were ER locos, but whatever I saw it was an LMR Cl 24.


I am 99% certain that the 07.30-ish ex Cambridge was running in July, 1967. With LMR Cl 24s.


Well, I can't say they never worked the branch, but they were absolutely not common, and I never saw them. The only ER locos from c 1964 onwards which worked with any regularity that I saw were Brush 2s used to drag ER electric sets to/from Wolverton Works for overhaul. IIRC, these were usually weekly, I think on Tuesdays or Thursday, leaving Bletchley approx 10.30 or so. I thnk these were diverted away from the WCML from late 64 or early 65 to help electrification work.


Did Oxford or ex-GWR locos ever come onto the branch? I never heard of a Hall or any ex-GWR loco at Cambridge, or even Bletchley. I doubt they were cleared for the line.


They all were. IMX ER DMUs never worked the line, except for one Sunday turn from Cambridge departing about 09.00 I think. But the branch closed on Sundays from about 1963, and that was the end of ER DMUs.

I once saw a Warship (Class 42) at Bletchley whilst passing on a WCML service, circa 1965.