P&O Ferries to permanently stop accepting foot passengers on their Dover to Calais route.

[StephenHunter]

With Ashford not exactly getting a huge number of Eurostar services even pre-Covid, could not some Ashford-Calais service be set up?

 

[RT4038]

With Ashford not exactly getting a huge number of Eurostar services even pre-Covid, could not some Ashford-Calais service be set up?

With the right sums of money for subsidies, I am sure it could. It wouldn't be a commercial operation, or anywhere near remotely commercial, so you would be talking mega large right sums of money in comparison to the revenue and numbers of likely passengers. So who would pay for it? In the present climate seems highly unlikely to happen.

 

[paul1609]

The biggest issue for the Newhaven ferry is the 4-hour crossing time, against Dover's 90 minutes.
The crossing times also aren't massively favourable to day trips, even with the 3 sailings a day timetable in summer. The Current winter timetable is 10:30 off Newhaven for 15:30 in Dieppe, but the return departure is 18:00 so basically you've only got time for a late lunch and a quick paddle in the sea before you've got to head back. The 3-departure sailings isn't much better, where the 11:00 off Newhaven gets you 2 hours in Dieppe before the 18:00 return crossing, or you have to hang around for the 23:59 departure).
Newhaven works great for overnight stays in France, but a day trip is not really practical. I do remember we used to do day trips to Dieppe for family Birthdays with the 2-hour crossing time of the SeaCat.

I mostly go over in the summer on the overnight ferry with a cabin which are dirt cheap if you book well in advance, Ive had £30 before. Gets to Dieppe around sunrise in summer so it can be a pleasant walk in to town. Mid week surprisingly for France there's the fast food type cafes in the square open from about 6 am. On the market saturdays there tends to be a lot of people around and the ferry terminal stays open until past 6 anyway although its basically a waiting room with a vending machine. i mostly go over on my motorbike heading to the Baie de la Somme Railway which is about an hour away but I reckon out overnight and back on the 18.00 makes a good day in Dieppe. Have a late lunch in Dieppe and then get a taxi back to the ferry. I find that all the staff are very friendly and accommodating unlike Calais.

 

[zwk500]

I mostly go over in the summer on the overnight ferry with a cabin which are dirt cheap if you book well in advance, Ive had £30 before. Gets to Dieppe around sunrise in summer so it can be a pleasant walk in to town. Mid week surprisingly for France there's the fast food type cafes in the square open from about 6 am. On the market saturdays there tends to be a lot of people around and the ferry terminal stays open until past 6 anyway although its basically a waiting room with a vending machine. i mostly go over on my motorbike heading to the Baie de la Somme Railway which is about an hour away but I reckon out overnight and back on the 18.00 makes a good day in Dieppe. Have a late lunch in Dieppe and then get a taxi back to the ferry. I find that all the staff are very friendly and accommodating unlike Calais.

If you're happy to do that yes, but I've found the 4 hour crossing and trying to sleep on the boat means you feel really drained for the rest of the day if you take the midnight crossing. However, as this thread is really about P&O on the Dover-Calais route I do acknowledge that the Newhaven ferry provides an option for foot, cycle and motor traffic and it's one that's often overlooked.

 

[paul1609]

With Ashford not exactly getting a huge number of Eurostar services even pre-Covid, could not some Ashford-Calais service be set up?

Wouldn't be viable, most people in rural Kent have access to a car through necessity. If you want to go to France its cheaper to get a short period return on Le Shuttle or the ferries. Driving on the wrong side isn't really an issue for most people down here.
Nearly every destination is easily reached in a few hours. From my House 20 miles from the tunnel,Lille is closer than Peterborough Brussels is the same distance as driving to the NEC in Birmingham, Paris is about the same as Stoke on Trent, even Northern Italy Milan etc is only the same distance as Aberdeen.
If you want to go to Paris take the car on Le Shuttle, Park in the free Car Park at Frethun (or calais Ville) and take a domestic TGV to Gare Du Nord for around £40. Once you factor in parking at Ashford, £35 to St Pancras its much cheaper than Eurostar. Even if you don't use club card points!

 

[Trainbike46]

you'd think that the suspension of Kent stops on the eurostar should have led to more foot passengers on the ferry. I guess not though

 

[zwk500]

you'd think that the suspension of Kent stops on the eurostar should have led to more foot passengers on the ferry. I guess not though

The lack of any such uptake kind of proves both the train and ferry's economic points...

 

[Bletchleyite]

you'd think that the suspension of Kent stops on the eurostar should have led to more foot passengers on the ferry. I guess not though

They've probably just switched to flying from Gatwick.

 

[StephenHunter]

They've probably just switched to flying from Gatwick.

Or getting SE High Speed to London.

 

[johncrossley]

With the right sums of money for subsidies, I am sure it could. It wouldn't be a commercial operation, or anywhere near remotely commercial, so you would be talking mega large right sums of money in comparison to the revenue and numbers of likely passengers. So who would pay for it? In the present climate seems highly unlikely to happen.

Isn't it normal for local international (as opposed to express services like Eurostar, Thalys etc.) services to be subsidised? They can even be free, for example Dunkerque to De Panne.

 

[miklcct]

They've probably just switched to flying from Gatwick.

Or getting SE High Speed to London.

How does flying from Gatwick, or taking the high-speed train to London, help a Folkestone resident to go to Calais?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Isn't it normal for local international (as opposed to express services like Eurostar, Thalys etc.) services to be subsidised? They can even be free, for example Dunkerque to De Panne.

Yes, but that isn't going to happen between a non-EU country and an EU country. Were we more enthusiastic for the EU you could imagine something a bit like the "Euregiobahn" around Aachen, a network of subsidised regional expresses across three countries.

 

[RT4038]

Local buses and tra


Isn't it normal for local international (as opposed to express services like Eurostar, Thalys etc.) services to be subsidised? They can even be free, for example Dunkerque to De Panne.

Good luck with making that argument for a service between Ashford and Calais!

Local International service is really only intra-Schengen country services in the world today. It is certainly not normal outside. You will be hard pressed to give an example elsewhere - there are few enough International train services of any sort outside of the Schengen Zone and pretty much all of them longer distance 'express' type services. Any local service that there may be will be incomparable to the Ashford-Calais situation. Dunkerque-De Panne might as well be on the moon in comparison to Ashford-Calais.

 

[StephenHunter]

Yes, but that isn't going to happen between a non-EU country and an EU country. Were we more enthusiastic for the EU you could imagine something a bit like the "Euregiobahn" around Aachen, a network of subsidised regional expresses across three countries.

You can cross into France with the Geneva tram-network, though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You can cross into France with the Geneva tram-network, though.

True. Though Switzerland is an odder hybrid than we ever were. It probably wouldn't be viable were it not for Schengen, and I don't think England* ever will (or ever should) join Schengen.

* Be that with Scotland/Wales/NI attached or not.

 

[miklcct]

Good luck with making that argument for a service between Ashford and Calais!

Local International service is really only intra-Schengen country services in the world today. It is certainly not normal outside. You will be hard pressed to give an example elsewhere - there are few enough International train services of any sort outside of the Schengen Zone and pretty much all of them longer distance 'express' type services. Any local service that there may be will be incomparable to the Ashford-Calais situation. Dunkerque-De Panne might as well be on the moon in comparison to Ashford-Calais.

Local international service, in forms of buses and ferries, is the norm elsewhere in the world.

For example, frequent buses operate between Malaysia and Singapore which carry thousands of cross-border commuters every day.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Yes, but that isn't going to happen between a non-EU country and an EU country. Were we more enthusiastic for the EU you could imagine something a bit like the "Euregiobahn" around Aachen, a network of subsidised regional expresses across three countries.

The one-time large market of school/student/language trips, from France to Kent especially, has evaporated with the "passport only" regulations (local EU ID cards not accepted).
All part of the damage Brexit has done to travel generally.
With EES and Etias to come.

 

[johncrossley]

Yes, but that isn't going to happen between a non-EU country and an EU country. Were we more enthusiastic for the EU you could imagine something a bit like the "Euregiobahn" around Aachen, a network of subsidised regional expresses across three countries.

So you could argue subsidy is more needed than before, to mitigate the negative effects of Brexit!

 

[Bletchleyite]

So you could argue subsidy is more needed than before, to mitigate the negative effects of Brexit!

Or, er, we could....don't say it...

Not accepting EU ID cards for entry is pure ideology and was not a necessary part of Brexit. We could easily have kept that in place.

 

[AdamWW]

Foot passengers can still use Harwich-Hook I think, although the connection in NL is now by tram to Rotterdam.

They certainly can, are properly provided for and not made to feel unwelcome. I've used the ferry a few times this year and even out of the summer holiday season there were still plenty of foot passengers.

Sadly the through tickets from any Greater Anglia station to any NS station now only get you as far as the Hook of Holland, and you then have to get a (quite expensive) Metro train to join the rail network abd then buy another ticket, but it's still a convenient journey with no bus transfers, taxi rides or long walks (though it will be nice when the new Hook of Holland metro station opens - the temporary one isn't quite so convenient).

I appreciate all the reasons that things are the way they are now, but it does seem a shame not to be able to cross the channel affordably at short notice any more.

 

[johncrossley]

Not accepting EU ID cards for entry is pure ideology and was not a necessary part of Brexit. We could easily have kept that in place.

Especially given that other non-EU/Schengen countries accept EU ID cards.

 

[AdamWW]

Not accepting EU ID cards for entry is pure ideology and was not a necessary part of Brexit. We could easily have kept that in place.

Do you think that the suggestion that ID cards were considered too easy to forge is a made up reason to try to justify an ideological decision?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do you think that the suggestion that ID cards were considered too easy to forge is a made up reason to try to justify an ideological decision?

Yes. EU ID cards are biometric and just as secure as a UK passport. (If any country's ones aren't biometric, those could have been excepted, just as the USA forced an international change to passports by stating they required biometrics from a certain date).

You can easily print, using a card printer, something that looks like one, but when you scan it you'd see straight through it, as it were.

 

[AdamWW]

Yes. EU ID cards are biometric and just as secure as a UK passport. (If any country's ones aren't biometric, those could have been excepted, just as the USA forced an international change to passports by stating they required biometrics from a certain date).

You can easily print, using a card printer, something that looks like one, but when you scan it you'd see straight through it, as it were.

OK I thought some EU countries still had valid non biometric ones.

I may have been the victim of misinformation.

A fair point though that they could have agreed to accept biometric ones only, though I can't see the UK forcing any internatoinal change in policy in the way that the US can.

 

[johncrossley]

OK I thought some EU countries still had valid non biometric ones.

I may have been the victim of misinformation.

A fair point though that they could have agreed to accept biometric ones only, though I can't see the UK forcing any internatoinal change in policy in the way that the US can.

All new ones are biometric, but there might be some people using old ones that are not biometric.

The fact that people with Settled Status can still use ID cards makes it even more daft. Irish people can use their Passport Card (which is an ID card in all but name).

 

[RT4038]

The one-time large market of school/student/language trips, from France to Kent especially, has evaporated with the "passport only" regulations (local EU ID cards not accepted).
All part of the damage Brexit has done to travel generally.
With EES and Etias to come.

I don't think they came as foot passengers on Ferries though.

Yes. EU ID cards are biometric and just as secure as a UK passport. (If any country's ones aren't biometric, those could have been excepted, just as the USA forced an international change to passports by stating they required biometrics from a certain date).

You can easily print, using a card printer, something that looks like one, but when you scan it you'd see straight through it, as it were.

Not sure what any of this has got to do with foot passengers on Dover-Calais ferries? There were very small numbers of passengers using it prior to Covid/Brexit, so ID card acceptance or otherwise has nothing to do with this.

I appreciate all the reasons that things are the way they are now, but it does seem a shame not to be able to cross the channel affordably at short notice any more.

Why is this a shame, when seemingly almost no-one wants to do it anyway? Misty eyed memories of 141Rs on the quayside at Calais?

So you could argue subsidy is more needed than before, to mitigate the negative effects of Brexit!

As this negative effect is on a vanishingly small proportion of the UK population, there is no argument at all.

 

[AdamWW]

Why is this a shame, when seemingly almost no-one wants to do it anyway? Misty eyed memories of 141Rs on the quayside at Calais?

Well, for example being able to go Interrailing and not having to fix the return date and time well in advance and facing huge costs if you then fail to be in Paris on time.

Is it something that affects most people? No.

Is it a shame for those who would like that flexibility? Yes, in my view.

It's also rather hard to judge how many people would use a convenient rail-ferry-rail connection across the channel when we don't have one.

As I said above, the Hook of Holland to Harwich route seems to be fairly well used by foot passengers. It has a good rail-ferry-(metro)-rail connection and is promoted as such.

(By the way I have absolutely no idea what a 141R is).

 

[StephenHunter]

141Rs were SNCF steam locomotives.

 

[The exile]

Eurostar is no longer useful for those living in Kent unless there is a stop at Ashford International.

Just as useful as for those living an equal distance away in the other directions - just more frustrating!

 

[AdamWW]

141Rs were SNCF steam locomotives.

Well that's not why I would quite like to still be able to travel across the channel at a reasonable price (and without the hassle and environmental impact of air travel) without having to plan weeks or months in advance.