Paper tickets

[Bletchleyite]

While face recognition can be used with CCTV, there is still a disconnect between the event of being videoed and an investigation.

For example, I put a paper ticket through a barrier as a test and got a '125' error code last weekend. I suspect no one will follow it up and they would have to go through a whole load of CCTV to identify me which probably wouldn't be worth it. I didn't actually leave the station.

If that had been an e-ticket, it would be possible to link that '125' error back to me and automatically prosecute if the authorities were doing a cracking down on people presenting invalid tickets at ticket gates.

125 = TOC ticket destination is not valid for exit here

(My view was that the ticket was valid but others could take a different view.)

I am genuinely concerned about this sort of possibility. Staff let you through then 2 weeks later a letter shows up.

 

[Ken H]

I am genuinely concerned about this sort of possibility. Staff let you through then 2 weeks later a letter shows up.

paper ticket, pay cash at the booking office. Job done

 

[Hadders]

Although paper tickets purchased at a ticket office are increasingly e-tickets (the ones issued on paper till roll are as they have the Aztec barcode which you scan to operate the barriers)

 

[Ken H]

Although paper tickets purchased at a ticket office are increasingly e-tickets (the ones issued on paper till roll are as they have the Aztec barcode which you scan to operate the barriers)

do tickets still have a code on for the payment method?

 

[Grumpy Git]

...... they have the Aztec barcode which you scan to operate the barriers)

Which could very easily be linked to an automatic still/screenshot off the CCTV at the point of purchase.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Although paper tickets purchased at a ticket office are increasingly e-tickets (the ones issued on paper till roll are as they have the Aztec barcode which you scan to operate the barriers)

PRT not eTickets

 

[Haywain]

While face recognition can be used with CCTV, there is still a disconnect between the event of being videoed and an investigation.

For example, I put a paper ticket through a barrier as a test and got a '125' error code last weekend. I suspect no one will follow it up and they would have to go through a whole load of CCTV to identify me which probably wouldn't be worth it. I didn't actually leave the station.

If that had been an e-ticket, it would be possible to link that '125' error back to me and automatically prosecute if the authorities were doing a cracking down on people presenting invalid tickets at ticket gates.

125 = TOC ticket destination is not valid for exit here

(My view was that the ticket was valid but others could take a different view.)

Utterly ridiculous.

 

[py_megapixel]

Is it actually illegal to present an invalid ticket at a barrier, assuming you subsequently present a valid one when asked to by staff? If so, then anyone who has ever accidentally put the wrong-direction portion of their return through a ticket gate has committed an offence!

 

[91103eastcoast]

I’m all for e-tickets sine I’ve had several time consuming TVM issues, in one case causing an hour’s delay.
The only worry I have with an e-ticket is the loss of through tickets cross-London, particularly with advances. I made a Leeds-Ashford journey last week and the LNER train was 25 minutes late into Kings Cross which meant I missed my connection. Because I had a through ticket I was fine, but both GWR and SouthEastern onboard staff told me on separate occasions when using Oyster/contactless to cross London its counted as a gap so you have to purchase a new ticket for your connection in the case of delay.

Slightly Off topic but a GWR TM told me the industry was “clamping down on people doing cross London journeys” so I could see how e-tickets could facilitate this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Utterly ridiculous.

Not at all.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Not at all.

One part of my role is looking after gates and yes that scenario is utterly rediculous

 

[CaptainHaddock]

One part of my role is looking after gates and yes that scenario is utterly rediculous

...but also possible.

 

[Howardh]

Is it actually illegal to present an invalid ticket at a barrier, assuming you subsequently present a valid one when asked to by staff? If so, then anyone who has ever accidentally put the wrong-direction portion of their return through a ticket gate has committed an offence!

I do that all the time, usually it's presenting the outward portion of a return ticket - even though earlier I activated both! mayve the outward code could "disappear" once used so idiots like me get the return leg right...after all with paper tickets once you have arrived and passed through your destination station you can safely dispose of the outbound ticket - can't you?

Or does the pax have to keep both parts of an outbound/return ticket for the return leg?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Or does the pax have to keep both parts of an outbound/return ticket for the return leg?

Be tricky at those stations where the automated barriers have swallowed your outward ticket on arrival at your outbound destination!

 

[Howardh]

Be tricky at those stations where the automated barriers have swallowed your outward ticket on arrival at your outbound destination!

Very true!

 

[Wallsendmag]

...but also possible.

As possible as a Train Manager passing you on an alternative service and then getting the same call.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One part of my role is looking after gates and yes that scenario is utterly rediculous

There is no relationship at all between looking after a gateline and "big data" analysis. It is more relevant to IT, which is my profession.

Mark my words, it WILL happen. It already has with Delay Repay, there is a thread on it. It is a tiny, tiny jump to analysing "invalid" e-ticket scans, be they staff "permission", Break of Journey at stations without facilities outside the gateline, ending short or whatever.

As possible as a Train Manager passing you on an alternative service and then getting the same call.

If they don't endorse the ticket, it will happen to someone. Give it 5 years or so.

 

[AlterEgo]

It is a tiny, tiny jump to analysing "invalid" e-ticket scans, be they staff "permission", Break of Journey at stations without facilities outside the gateline, ending short or whatever.

What sort of letter do you envisage receiving after (allegedly) breaking your journey when not entitled?

 

[Wallsendmag]

There is no relationship at all between looking after a gateline and "big data" analysis. It is more relevant to IT, which is my profession.

Mark my words, it WILL happen. It already has with Delay Repay, there is a thread on it. It is a tiny, tiny jump to analysing "invalid" e-ticket scans, be they staff "permission", Break of Journey at stations without facilities outside the gateline, ending short or whatever.



If they don't endorse the ticket, it will happen to someone. Give it 5 years or so.

The is if you know exactly what data can be derived from the gate reports

 

[Bletchleyite]

The is if you know exactly what data can be derived from the gate reports

I assume it records the ticket number and location? That is all you need, when combined with the records of what that ticket number represents in terms of the ticket.

 

[island]

do tickets still have a code on for the payment method?

Yes, though it's small. M for Money, X for card are the common ones. You may also see W for Warrant, V for Voucher, and Q for cheque, plus I've had a Y once for a ticket part paid by voucher and part by card.

Is it actually illegal to present an invalid ticket at a barrier, assuming you subsequently present a valid one when asked to by staff? If so, then anyone who has ever accidentally put the wrong-direction portion of their return through a ticket gate has committed an offence!

It would depend on intent as it is not (on its own) a strict liability matter.

An example of where an offence would, in my view, be committed could run like this:

• Passenger travels relatively often between, say, Birmingham and Manchester on off-peak returns
• On a given journey, the passenger has two return ticket portions, both of which are still in date.
• Ticket 1 was used last week and stamped by the train manager, but never went through any ticket barriers as they were open at both ends.
• Ticket 2 is being used for this journey but the train manager hasn't come through this time.
• The passenger finds the barriers closed at Birmingham New Street and presents ticket 1, intending to use ticket 2 again next week.
• Ticket 1 is retained and opens the gate.

The passenger has in my view committed a section 5 Regulation of Railways Act offence. The precedent of Browning vs Floyd from 1946 applies.