Part of WCML to be closed Acton Grange Junction engineering work

[Peter0124]

Between the 20th of July and 4th of August Inc, the WCML in Warrington will be shut for renewals:
https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/our-routes/lnw/wcmlactongrange/

Some interesting amendments to timetables and diversions of services will occur:
All Glasgow to London and vice versa trains to run through Manchester, boarding only at Piccadily southbound and alighting only northbound. They are being merged with the current XX:55 Manchester to London via Crewe services, thus meaning the Glasgow to London services and vice versa will additionally call at Stockport, Wilmslow, Crewe and MKC. Also creating a short term plan extra later service to Glasgow arriving at 01:06.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/S03959/2019/08/02/advanced

London to Glasgow services will depart London at XX:40 each hour (using the path of XX:40 to Manchester) thus increasing the journey time by approximately 1 hour between the two.

 

[Ianno87]

"Travel chaos"?

Very similar closures have been done in previous summers 2013/14...the result being anything but chaos. And that was before having *any* electrified diversionary route. Now there are two.

And summer holidays mean fewer passengers, not more.

Please calm down.

 

[edwin_m]

At least some service is running through, and completion of the Bolton electrification has made it possible. It could have been buses from Crewe to Preston!

 

[Glenn1969]

There will also be no trains from:

Chester to Manchester via Chat Moss (Northern and TfW)
Ellesmere Port- Warrington
Warrington- Wigan
Buses will run Preston- Crewe instead of Via Birmingham trains

It does kind of feel a little bit like chaos could ensue

 

[The Planner]

Why? All the operators concerned have worked with NR to deliver it.

 

[Glenn1969]

Those services that are left will be rammed including the Chat Moss Liverpool train that is the only one left between Earlestown/Newton to Piccadilly

And will there be enough buses for the passengers that need them?

 

[SilentGrade]

Those services that are left will be rammed including the Chat Moss Liverpool train that is the only one left between Earlestown/Newton to Piccadilly

And will there be enough buses for the passengers that need them?

All hypotheticals. I’d rather trust the judgement and hard work of both the NR and TOC planners who have done this before and (usually) know what they’re doing

 

[The Planner]

Yes as the plan is to run buses to Manchester Airport to connect to the myriad of trains there.

 

[IslandDweller]

Three comments
(1) "And summer holidays mean fewer passengers, not more"
That's true on some routes, I'm sure. But my experience is that Glasgow services are much busier in summer. Also, not running the Virgin Edinburgh service will inconvenience many as August is Edinburgh festivals season.
(2) Wonder how platform 13/14 at Piccadilly will cope - it's horrid at the best of times but this can only make it worse.
(3) Has this blockade been known about or a long time? First I've heard of it. We're now past the supposed twelve week timetable certainty deadline. Once consequence is that Virgin appear not to have released any advance fares for the Glasgow route over this blockade period. I totally understand that infrastructure has to be renewed but suprised that this is being announced with so little advance warning. (Say - compared to Euston works which have had months and months of early warning).

 

[Class 170101]

I'm surprised that Virgin haven't run their Glasgow / Edinburgh service as far as Warrington Bank Quay from the north at least so as to shorten the bus distance.

Was diverting to Liverpool considered to enable connections there for London?

 

[Bevan Price]

Why? All the operators concerned have worked with NR to deliver it.

People who, from past history, seem to care s*d all about inconvenience to passengers.
And why is no attempt being made to divert Manchester / North Wales services via Northwich?.
And as Warrington Bank Quay to Earlestown / Liverpool services are seemingly still operating, why are there no trains from Warrington to Wigan & beyond ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

FWIW, I too would be concerned about possible overcrowding here. I hope they ensure it's all 11-car Pendolino or 10-car Voyager.

 

[PHILIPE]

People who, from past history, seem to care s*d all about inconvenience to passengers.
And why is no attempt being made to divert Manchester / North Wales services via Northwich?.
And as Warrington Bank Quay to Earlestown / Liverpool services are seemingly still operating, why are there no trains from Warrington to Wigan & beyond ?

The TFW Manchester/North Wales are running via Northwich on Sundays. On weekdays have you considered if paths via Northwich are available ?

 

[Bertie the bus]

I'm surprised that Virgin haven't run their Glasgow / Edinburgh service as far as Warrington Bank Quay from the north at least so as to shorten the bus distance.

Surprised? You wouldn't be surprised if you looked at what Virgin have done in the past. They are pretty much the most eager of all TOCs to run nothing during engineering works and put RRBs on for huge distances when shorter ones or diversions would be possible.

 

[Bevan Price]

The TFW Manchester/North Wales are running via Northwich on Sundays. On weekdays have you considered if paths via Northwich are available ?

Not sure about Stockport to Manchester, which might be difficult (but not impossible). However Chester to Stockport via Northwich should not be a problem in most hours. Any rail replacement buses to/from Manchester would probably need to use the M62 and/or M56, both of which are nightmares at weekday peak hours.

I forgot to add - surely the Christmas/New Year period would have been a better choice for this work, when both commuter & leisure travel tends to be fairly low?

 

[Class 170101]

I forgot to add - surely the Christmas/New Year period would have been a better choice for this work, when both commuter & leisure travel tends to be fairly low?

Probably too many blocks between ECML and WCML to make it work.

 

[The Planner]

People who, from past history, seem to care s*d all about inconvenience to passengers.
And why is no attempt being made to divert Manchester / North Wales services via Northwich?.
And as Warrington Bank Quay to Earlestown / Liverpool services are seemingly still operating, why are there no trains from Warrington to Wigan & beyond ?

No paths at Mickle Trafford, and moving the Northern slots means rewrite of Stockport to Picc which no TOC would agree to.

 

[Chester1]

Those services that are left will be rammed including the Chat Moss Liverpool train that is the only one left between Earlestown/Newton to Piccadilly

And will there be enough buses for the passengers that need them?

The Llandudno services give up their paths at Piccadilly and on Chat Moss for London-Glasgow. I am not sure why Northern are not running Warrington Bank Quay - Leeds.

I'm surprised that Virgin haven't run their Glasgow / Edinburgh service as far as Warrington Bank Quay from the north at least so as to shorten the bus distance.

Was diverting to Liverpool considered to enable connections there for London?

London services are still running. For Birmingham-Glasgow it will be quicker to change at Crewe.

FWIW, I too would be concerned about possible overcrowding here. I hope they ensure it's all 11-car Pendolino or 10-car Voyager.

On Open Train Times it appears that VT Scotland services will be run by Pendolinos. They should roster all London-Manchester/Glasgow services with 11 coach units. The spare Voyagers could be used to strengthen London-Chester to compensate between London and Crewe.

 

[Bevan Price]

FWIW, I too would be concerned about possible overcrowding here. I hope they ensure it's all 11-car Pendolino or 10-car Voyager.

Once passengers discover what is happening, I expect that many of those potentially affected will avoid rail travel for the closure period.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

TfW could at least have run the Llandudno-Manchester to Crewe (change for Manchester), replacing the Chester-Crewe shuttle, but they are seemingly not doing anything as helpful as that (that route is permitted on most walk-up tickets, and connects onto TfW at Crewe).
There is at least the new Chester-Liverpool service, so a routeing to Warrington/Manchester via Liverpool South Parkway becomes a useful option.
(I know, "not permitted"...).

 

[DarloRich]

"Travel chaos"?

Very similar closures have been done in previous summers 2013/14...the result being anything but chaos. And that was before having *any* electrified diversionary route. Now there are two.

And summer holidays mean fewer passengers, not more.

Please calm down.

Why? All the operators concerned have worked with NR to deliver it.

Are the correct answers!

People who, from past history, seem to care s*d all about inconvenience to passengers.
And why is no attempt being made to divert Manchester / North Wales services via Northwich?.
And as Warrington Bank Quay to Earlestown / Liverpool services are seemingly still operating, why are there no trains from Warrington to Wigan & beyond ?

why not apply for a job as a train planner?

My point is that the people who do this work do so every day in conjunction with the TOC's and with input from other stakeholders. It is easy from your armchair to complain without being in possession of all of the facts. I am sure this was looked at but discounted for a sensible reason.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Once passengers discover what is happening, I expect that many of those potentially affected will avoid rail travel for the closure period.

Or will crowd out the ECML instead.

Would there be paths for running a second train through from Manchester? If so they probably should do that.

 

[A0wen]

Or will crowd out the ECML instead.

Would there be paths for running a second train through from Manchester? If so they probably should do that.

The fact they haven't done this suggests probably not, or operationally it is problematic i.e. it screws up the placement of crews and trains.

As @DarloRich said to somebody else, perhaps you should apply for a job as a train planner? Since you are Bletchley based, I'm sure Network Rail must have some openings at their MK HQ.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The fact they haven't done this suggests probably not, or operationally it is problematic i.e. it screws up the placement of crews and trains.

As @DarloRich said to somebody else, perhaps you should apply for a job as a train planner? Since you are Bletchley based, I'm sure Network Rail must have some openings at their MK HQ.

I don't think one has to be a planner to feel that arrangements will be inadequate. This is very different to the anti-HS2 arguments.

 

[Welshman]

TfW could at least have run the Llandudno-Manchester to Crewe (change for Manchester), replacing the Chester-Crewe shuttle, but they are seemingly not doing anything as helpful as that (that route is permitted on most walk-up tickets, and connects onto TfW at Crewe).

That's a good idea. The unit could get to Crewe and back in time to form the next train back to Llandudno, rather than sitting around in Chester for just over an hour. It would also save passengers [perhaps with luggage at this time of year], having to make the mad dash between platforms 4 & 1 in five minutes!!

At least the termination of North Wales services at Chester should ease the rolling-stock crisis

 

[The Planner]

I don't think one has to be a planner to feel that arrangements will be inadequate. This is very different to the anti-HS2 arguments.

The only thing on the north south axis that is lost is the Euston Brum Scotland service which is a fast coach direct Crewe to Preston from what I can see and is pretty favourable in terms of journey time compared to sitting on the Glasgow via Manchester. The industry was slated on the Settle and Carlisle thread for not diverting, now we are it is not enough. The extended Manchester trains are set down pick up only at Piccadilly which mitigates.

 

[DarloRich]

The industry was slated on the Settle and Carlisle thread for not diverting, now we are it is not enough. The extended Manchester trains are set down pick up only at Piccadilly which mitigates.

Planners can never win. They certainly can never win with "experts"! It is a hard job and nowhere near as easy or as straight forward as people here seem to think.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The only thing on the north south axis that is lost is the Euston Brum Scotland service which is a fast coach direct Crewe to Preston from what I can see and is pretty favourable in terms of journey time compared to sitting on the Glasgow via Manchester. The industry was slated on the Settle and Carlisle thread for not diverting, now we are it is not enough. The extended Manchester trains are set down pick up only at Piccadilly which mitigates.

Will there be a separate Preston-Glasgow/Edinburgh service to connect with the coach, or will these passengers cram onto the via Manchester service at Preston or worse TPE's 4-car 350s? If the latter, the capacity will not be adequate.

(Euston/MK-Crewe can probably be satisfied by ensuring all the Chesters are double sets)

 

[The Planner]

Will there be a separate Preston-Glasgow/Edinburgh service to connect with the coach, or will these passengers cram onto the via Manchester service at Preston or worse TPE's 4-car 350s? If the latter, the capacity will not be adequate.

(Euston/MK-Crewe can probably be satisfied by ensuring all the Chesters are double sets)

Yes, the service is basically split in two with the coach in between.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, the service is basically split in two with the coach in between.

Ah, I'd misread, then, I thought it was being lopped to Brum with only 1tph on the northern WCML. Sorry.