Passengers 'boiled alive' on heated buses

[extendedpaul]

The aircon on the newer double deck Megabus is the most effective I have ever encountered. Last Tuesday when it was in the 30s outside some passengers were putting coats on !

That said on the one occasion I travelled Megabus when the aircon wasn't working it was incredibly hot and uncomfortable upstairs and made the journey really unpleasant.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Unless the bus was full of water, wouldn't the passengers be "roasted alive" instead of "boiled"?

Well done! +1!

 

[90019]

On any bus I have driven the valve is in a relatively accessible place in the engine bay, I made it my business to find out where exactly after having hot air blasted at me from the demisters on one of our B7TLs. Unless your lot have purposely had the handles removed from the valves they should be fairly obvious red plumbing valve on a thick pipe.

On most of our Volvos there is a way to do it with the controller in the cab or in the menus on the dashboard depending on the bus, but nobody bothers to tell you about it.
On the older ones with no controls for saloon heaters in the cab, most of them have had a switch retrofitted to turn the heaters on or off.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I doubt that that bus has A/C, outside London there are few if any double deck buses with any form of air cooling.

The Glasgow B9TLs ordered for the 2014 Commonwealth Games were specified with air conditioning upstairs.

 

[MCR247]

Tri-axle?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Tri-axle?

Oops, no, that's because I was looking at Hong Kong buses as part of this thread too

 

[MCR247]

Oops, no, that's because I was looking at Hong Kong buses as part of this thread too

Oh I didn't know there were 2 axle buses with air con, thought they'd be too heavy (both in weight and on fuel!)

 

[fowler9]

I had a ride on a Bustech CDi on the Gold Coast of Australia. Double decker, three axles and fully air conditioned. Weird thing is 2 of the axles are at the front. It was being driven by the chief electrical engineer of the company who we were staying with and I was sat at the front of the top deck with his dog as we went down the Gold Coast Highway. Had a great time wandering around the factory as well.

 

[J-2739]

Don't tfl hate tri-axle buses? I think I read somwhere on Tangytango bus forums that for air con, the buses need to be tri-axle to accumulate the extra weight of a/c. A longer bus of tri-axles increases capacity, but with only 2 door increases dwell times. I thought tfl puts loading times forwards of seating/standing capacity?

 

[GaryMcEwan]

These are just a few of Glasgow's B9's that do have Air-Con. These being, 37205 - 37227, 37530 - 37544.

The give away sign is that they don't have any windows that can be opened...

 

[jon0844]

Was on a 390 from Bond Street to King's Cross yesterday, upstairs, and the fan noise was so loud you couldn't hear the auto announcements and would struggle to hold a conversation. And the air coming out was not cooled at all.

First really bad experience on a Borismaster, and although yesterday (8pm) was humid it wasn't massively hot.

 

[BestWestern]

These are just a few of Glasgow's B9's that do have Air-Con. These being, 37205 - 37227, 37530 - 37544.

The give away sign is that they don't have any windows that can be opened...

And does it reliably work?!

 

[the101]

Don't tfl hate tri-axle buses? I think I read somwhere on Tangytango bus forums that for air con, the buses need to be tri-axle to accumulate the extra weight of a/c.

Well fella, you've been told wrong I'm afraid. There are quite a number of two-axle air-conditioned double-deckers in Hong Kong; the majority are Enviro400s but at least one Volvo B9TL/Wright and even an MCV-bodied VDL DB300 are also there. I don't know what the capacities of these buses are, but there is no way that air-conditioning them doesn't have an effect on standing capacity.

Leyland even managed to air-condition a batch of Atlanteans four decades ago, for New York. The set-up included a Perkins donkey engine under the stairs if I remember rightly, and was highly unsuccessful. A Perkins donkey motor was also the way it was done on the (in)famous Olympian that ended up in Canada... or so the old grey matter tells me!

 

[J-2739]

Well fella, you've been told wrong I'm afraid. There are quite a number of two-axle air-conditioned double-deckers in Hong Kong; the majority are Enviro400s but at least one Volvo B9TL/Wright and even an MCV-bodied VDL DB300 are also there. I don't know what the capacities of these buses are, but there is no way that air-conditioning them doesn't have an effect on standing capacity.

Leyland even managed to air-condition a batch of Atlanteans four decades ago, for New York. The set-up included a Perkins donkey engine under the stairs if I remember rightly, and was highly unsuccessful. A Perkins donkey motor was also the way it was done on the (in)famous Olympian that ended up in Canada... or so the old grey matter tells me!

But say, wouldn't the air-conditioning unit take up a significant space at the lower back where potential seats could be? I say this as someone who hasn't taken an air-conditioned public bus before...

 

[Strathclyder]

And does it reliably work?!

Based on my personal experiences with Glasgow's air-conditioned B9TLs, not really. Most of the ones I've been on blast hot air in the summer. Throw in windows on the top-deck that are completely sealed and you have your very own greenhouse on wheels. Much prefer deckers with opening windows.

This is what Glasgow's air-conditioned B9TLs typically look like. The air-conditioning is confined to the top deck, the unit being located above the staircase (marked out by a thick black window band):

 

[BestWestern]

Based on my personal experiences with Glasgow's air-conditioned B9TLs, not really. Most of the ones I've been on blast hot air in the summer. Throw in windows on the top-deck that are completely sealed and you have your very own greenhouse on wheels. Much prefer deckers with opening windows.

This is what Glasgow's air-conditioned B9TLs typically look like. The air-conditioning is confined to the top deck, the unit being located above the staircase (marked out by a thick black window band):

So they're a/c'd upstairs, but not downstairs?! And presumably drink diesel at a frightening rate... Wow!

 

[the101]

But say, wouldn't the air-conditioning unit take up a significant space at the lower back where potential seats could be? I say this as someone who hasn't taken an air-conditioned public bus before...

The AC unit is above the engine, so it does not intrude into the saloon. It just means that there is no rear window on the lower deck.

 

[TravelDream]

Most Hong Kong double deckers do not have aircon. Mind you, in hot summers days people just open the windows!

When were you last in Hong Kong?

According to this press release the last no A/C bus was withdrawn in 2012.
http://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/201206/13/P201206120528.htm
http://www.kmb.hk/en/news/press/archives/news201205101667.html

I was thinking, I was there last month and didn't see a single non-AC bus.

 

[plcd1]

Well fella, you've been told wrong I'm afraid. There are quite a number of two-axle air-conditioned double-deckers in Hong Kong; the majority are Enviro400s but at least one Volvo B9TL/Wright and even an MCV-bodied VDL DB300 are also there. I don't know what the capacities of these buses are, but there is no way that air-conditioning them doesn't have an effect on standing capacity.

To be fair the Enviro 400 2 axles are a limited batch for a specific set of routes linking Central and Stanley and required special government dispensation to operate. ADL had to go to special lengths to lighten the E400s to allow them to take the air con units.

The other two buses, I think, remain unique and are effectively demonstrators. I think it's true to say that recent HK double deck deliveries have been mostly 11m or longer for Citybus, NWFB, KMB / Long Win Bus. They're all tri-axles.

And to go back to the OP's point about "TfL hating tri-axles" the core issue, and always has been, stop dwell times. Tri-axles can obviously carry large loads but even with a huge take up of electronic ticketing have very long dwell times. I've seen it and experienced it many times in HK. It's not unusual to have queues of buses waiting to pull on to stops in HK. The bus companies are resourced to cope with those long dwell times in HK because it's "how things are" in order to shift the vast numbers travelling. London is not so resourced and LT and then TfL have spent a very long time (decades) trying multiple initiatives to get dwell times down. Only in recent years has it achieved its desire to get cash off buses completely and that took about 7 years longer than originally planned (was an objective in Ken L's time at City Hall). And after all that effort bus services are slower than ever because of growing congestion and never ending road works. Ironic isn't it?

 

[GaryMcEwan]

The E500's that First Glasgow used to have before they went up north to Aberdeen have full A/C on the top deck and bottom deck.

 

[fowler9]

When were you last in Hong Kong?

According to this press release the last no A/C bus was withdrawn in 2012.
http://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/201206/13/P201206120528.htm
http://www.kmb.hk/en/news/press/archives/news201205101667.html

I was thinking, I was there last month and didn't see a single non-AC bus.

2011 for me, no none aircon buses that I noticed at least.

 

[Strathclyder]

The E500's that First Glasgow used to have before they went up north to Aberdeen have full A/C on the top deck and bottom deck.

And preceding the E500s, First Glasgow had 10 East Lancs Nordic-bodied Volvo B7Ls (31505-31515) from 2001 to the tail-end of 2011 (withdrawn when their lease expired, being sold on to other operators) that were fully equipped with air-conditioning, but with opening windows on both decks.

 

[Busaholic]

To be fair the Enviro 400 2 axles are a limited batch for a specific set of routes linking Central and Stanley and required special government dispensation to operate. ADL had to go to special lengths to lighten the E400s to allow them to take the air con units.

The other two buses, I think, remain unique and are effectively demonstrators. I think it's true to say that recent HK double deck deliveries have been mostly 11m or longer for Citybus, NWFB, KMB / Long Win Bus. They're all tri-axles.

And to go back to the OP's point about "TfL hating tri-axles" the core issue, and always has been, stop dwell times. Tri-axles can obviously carry large loads but even with a huge take up of electronic ticketing have very long dwell times. I've seen it and experienced it many times in HK. It's not unusual to have queues of buses waiting to pull on to stops in HK. The bus companies are resourced to cope with those long dwell times in HK because it's "how things are" in order to shift the vast numbers travelling. London is not so resourced and LT and then TfL have spent a very long time (decades) trying multiple initiatives to get dwell times down. Only in recent years has it achieved its desire to get cash off buses completely and that took about 7 years longer than originally planned (was an objective in Ken L's time at City Hall). And after all that effort bus services are slower than ever because of growing congestion and never ending road works. Ironic isn't it?

A lot of London bus garages would also not be well equipped to physically fit in tri-axles. Just to add to your list of the problems that now beset London buses is the deliberate removal of traffic lanes in many locations, some in connection with supposedly making life better for cyclists. The irony here is that the Mayor's office has been almost wholly responsible for this, the Mayor being in charge of TFL.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Talking of hot buses, I noted the first Borismaster with opening windows I've seen today. Pleased that they chose large sliding windows instead of hoppers, they should ensure ventilation is now adequate and don't spoil the look of the bus at all.

 

[plcd1]

Talking of hot buses, I noted the first Borismaster with opening windows I've seen today. Pleased that they chose large sliding windows instead of hoppers, they should ensure ventilation is now adequate and don't spoil the look of the bus at all.

Not sampled one yet but reports suggest

a) adequate only towards the rear of both decks. Still "warm" at the front.

b) there are no opening windows on the offside lower deck for some reason so I wonder how much better conditions downstairs are

 

[Tetchytyke]

The downstairs windows are smaller on the offside than on the nearside, so that'll probably be why they've not fitted the openings to them.

 

[theageofthetra]

Why are these newer Borismasters still not fitted with AC or air cooling which actually works?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why are these newer Borismasters still not fitted with AC or air cooling which actually works?

They are retrofits, aren't they?

The aircon doesn't work because it's not a properly specified system, as the properly specified system required would be too heavy (and fuel consuming) for the spec, and as such would probably require it to be 3-axle.

The option actually chosen was a bad compromise - opening windows and extractor fans per most London buses would have been better.

 

[plcd1]

They are retrofits, aren't they?

The aircon doesn't work because it's not a properly specified system, as the properly specified system required would be too heavy (and fuel consuming) for the spec, and as such would probably require it to be 3-axle.

The option actually chosen was a bad compromise - opening windows and extractor fans per most London buses would have been better.

Even TfL don't say the NB4Ls have air conditioning. Their reasoning for not fitting air con is as you set out - weight and fuel consumption. Nothing has been retrofitted other than the opening windowns. The NB4Ls are already so heavy none of them meet TfL's own spec for double deck capacity of 87 passengers. Therefore most conversions (i.e. except where freqs have increased) have seen a reduction in permitted capacity of at least 7% compared to the conventional buses they replace. Just as well demand on Central London routes is plummeting much faster than this. Even so there are too many photographs of NB4Ls being grossly overloaded with people stuffed in downstairs and too many anecdotes of people sitting on the rear staircases. In short they are unmanageable vehicles in busy conditions. Pity the poor driver who ever has an accident with that level of crowding.

I think TfL took the view that they could somehow "tinker and adjust" their way out of problems and that the system that Wrightbus (?) chose would eventually come right. The fact they did the infamous "test ride" with various TfL big wigs on board to declare "all is well" partly supports this theory. I actually saw the bus in question on "test". However rising numbers of the buses in service and three summers / warm autumns later TfL had nowhere to go. The fleet was far too big to put in a new system or redesign the vehicle and any run on orders would be too small. This is what happens when you have political commitments wrapped up into what should have been a much longer development and test process. TfL might have eventually got there given time but they didn't have that. In the end we had the decision to fit opening windows but even then there are far too few of them for some reason. In short we have a botched, inadequate design that Londoners are lumbered with for another 10-14 years (depending on age) barring any more disasters like structural problems or endemic battery / drivetrain issues that could emerge. Not saying they will but they might.

We already know TfL have been stung for £2m by operators of the NB4L because the buses in service are not delivering the assumed levels of fuel economy [1]. As TfL own the buses the risk on fuel economy is theirs. Another hidden cost to taxpayers and one which will presumably increase this year as more of the things come into service. We have to hope that fuel efficiency doesn't worsen with age.

Let's hope the current Mayoral regime does not indulge in any more forced bus buying decisions other than "pump priming" initial developments as they did with early hybrid buses although even there money was wasted on vehicles that were scrapped early / had to be re-engineered. Electric buses are the new "vogue" and are clearly still in the early stages of development and testing with no obvious consistent technology choice emerging as "best".

[1] see the Q4 2015/15 TfL Ops and Investment report.

 

[Strathclyder]

So they're a/c'd upstairs, but not downstairs?! And presumably drink diesel at a frightening rate... Wow!

Have no idea on how much diesel they consume when the air-con is active. Just wish they'd rip it out and install opening windows, as you're more likely to get fresh air into the cabin that way!