Passengers stranded after being let off train for fresh air

[etr221]

No, I haven't seen it written anywhere. However the minimum time for the alarm to sound before the doors start closing is three seconds. "Do not try to board or leave the train while the doors are closing" is frequently announced on GWR so three seconds wouldn't be a big window for people to "hurry up". Furthermore if the doors are closed the alarm on some units (ex-BR in my experience) will sound even though the doors lock immediately - they wouldn't do that if it meant "hurry up". "Hurry up isn't something the railway is in favour of in general, as it causes mishaps. So I'm going to take it as implicit that the alarm means "stand clear", in the absence of any evidence refuting this.


"Hustle alarm" is a nickname. The proper name is "audible warning device".

I recall 'Mind the Doors' as a 'standard' call by Underground platform staff, in the days before 'hustle/door closing alarms' (which replaced it) - and when power sliding doors were only commonplace on the Underground.

And the increased need for the alrm is down to what I perceive as a steady attitude change to 'we need to get this train away (even if passengers are still boarding)', from one in which departure would only when people were safely aboard.

 

[aar0]

I’m sure on something modern like an 800 it wouldn’t be hard to change the “door closing to keep the heat in/out” noise to be different to the “door closing, reopening at the next station” noise. It would be useful at termini stations when deciding how far down the train you want to walk!

In this case - I’ve stretched my legs on similar GWR stops and they’ve been clear on expected time, and the guard has walked on the platform saying things like 5 mins to go. I think you’d have to try to miss it.

 

[43096]

10th April. Why am I not surprised this occured on GWR on a Sunday.

10th April was a Thursday.

 

[Wychwood93]

I cannot remember the exact wording, but the GWR 165/1 units which I get now and again between Basingstoke and Reading have something like 'do not board or alight when', whatever it says, is sounding. With stops of generally well under a minute there is little time to stretch your legs. An average French traveller would no doubt nip out for a quick nicotine hit.

 

[The exile]

I’m sure on something modern like an 800 it wouldn’t be hard to change the “door closing to keep the heat in/out” noise to be different to the “door closing, reopening at the next station” noise. It would be useful at termini stations when deciding how far down the train you want to walk!

Think this would be very sensible - keep the current sound for "this door is currently closing" and have the beginning of the guard / driver initiated closure sequence indicated by something very different (dare I suggest the Berlin U- and S-Bahn tritone?). Once that sounds, no door will open once closed.

 

[johnsmith147]

I was on a train a while back which ended up standing at Chippenham for an hour or more due to silly problems near London. We were let out onto the platform (booked stop, so you'd hope so) and given regular updates on what was happening. At one point a member of an onboard hen do decided they'd run out of refreshments and needed to dash to a nearby supermarket - they asked the guard who said "you're probably good for another 15 minutes but we won't wait for you". Unfortunately for them the train left around 12 minutes later as they staggered down the stairs with a couple of bottles of wine.

 

[Killingworth]

I was on a train a while back which ended up standing at Chippenham for an hour or more due to silly problems near London. We were let out onto the platform (booked stop, so you'd hope so) and given regular updates on what was happening. At one point a member of an onboard hen do decided they'd run out of refreshments and needed to dash to a nearby supermarket - they asked the guard who said "you're probably good for another 15 minutes but we won't wait for you". Unfortunately for them the train left around 12 minutes later as they staggered down the stairs with a couple of bottles of wine.

Reminds me of a day an EMR Nottingham - Liverpool was stopped at Dore & Totley due to a points failure on the new loop. Unscheduled, no buses to Manchester Airport from there. Guard let a lot off, milling around wondering what to do. Over the bridge to the car park, no taxi rank. Call Uber! Not enough nearby for quick pickups but taxi sharing was arranged - and they waited, and waited. The train set off and left quite a lot behind.

 

[pompeyfan]

I’m sure on something modern like an 800 it wouldn’t be hard to change the “door closing to keep the heat in/out” noise to be different to the “door closing, reopening at the next station” noise. It would be useful at termini stations when deciding how far down the train you want to walk!

In this case - I’ve stretched my legs on similar GWR stops and they’ve been clear on expected time, and the guard has walked on the platform saying things like 5 mins to go. I think you’d have to try to miss it.

Why reinvent the wheel. The hustle alarm is solely there to advise that the doors are closing and the hazard this might cause to passengers.

 

[LowLevel]

Given the train is already delayed, if I allow passengers off for this reason I always advise them of the "terms of engagement" and will keep my side of the bargain before dispatching the train - that might cover "don't go further than the car park, but I will come and shout or blow a whistle when we can go" or similar and I will keep to it - 2 or 3 extra minutes to mobilise doesn't hurt.

On one occasion a colleague got stranded at Edale and came to an arrangement with the Ramblers Arms that they would let them know when the train was ready and the passengers could go to the pub, on the understanding that if they'd got to go they'd have to leave their drinks and go straight out to the train.

It worked a treat and everyone was happy!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I’m sure on something modern like an 800 it wouldn’t be hard to change the “door closing to keep the heat in/out” noise to be different to the “door closing, reopening at the next station” noise. It would be useful at termini stations when deciding how far down the train you want to walk!

I agree that it would be useful to change the sound - but you'd need to plan to do it on all units within a reasonable timeframe, not just the 800's. If some units made a different sound for 'door auto-closing' but others didn't, that could end up even more confusing.

 

[Falcon1200]

Why reinvent the wheel. The hustle alarm is solely there to advise that the doors are closing and the hazard this might cause to passengers.

Indeed, and how are passengers to know the difference between alarms for 'Doors closing but train is not leaving' and 'Doors closing and train is leaving now'?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Why reinvent the wheel. The hustle alarm is solely there to advise that the doors are closing and the hazard this might cause to passengers.

Why reinvent the wheel? Well changing to two different noises to distinguish the two situations isn't really reinventing the wheel is it. It's more like, making a change to the signals in order to solve the fact that the current situation is confusing.

Indeed, and how are passengers to know the difference between alarms for 'Doors closing but train is not leaving' and 'Doors closing and train is leaving now'?

I think passengers would very quickly learn to tell the difference, just from experience.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I think passengers would very quickly learn to tell the difference, just from experience.

Regular ones on that route might - but the longer the distance, the less frequent the travellers, and this was a train from Carmarthen to London (I appreciate not everyone on board was travelling that far)

 

[Bikeman78]

People seem to panic whenever they see doors closing at through stations - which, as stated can close after certain seconds to keep the aircon flowing normally - and run even if it is booked to dwell for another minute or so. People do this at terminals with even longer until departure time.

This is exactly what I mean. I see it happen frequently at Paddington. I would argue that the doors on IETs don't need to auto close. There are internal doors to keep the saloons at the correct temperature.

 

[Zomboid]

People who don't regularly travel by train wouldn't know that there even are two different sounds, never mind what they mean. And many who do would almost never need to hear the "closing but not setting off" noise because they'd never use a station with long dwell times.

This kind of thing happens so rarely and inconveniences so few people that it doesn't need a hardware solution applied to every train in the country.

 

[aar0]

I’m sure the SWR Desiros make a fairly soft bong before the doors open, and a rapid louder beep for them closing. The softer noise could be the “closing for heat” sound.

It is also surely possible to have 800 doors all open and stay open at termini, rather than closing individually 2 minutes after the button was last pressed.

 

[uglymonkey]

I have never heard of people being let off for "air" or whatever in 40+ years of using trains. Does it happen often?

 

[pompeyfan]

If you hear the hustle alarm and you’re half way between 2 sets of doors even Usain Bolt in his prime isn’t getting to the doors in time.

If only there was a (relatively loud) railway indication given by platform staff or the train guard the the doors were about to be closed and locked?

Anyone who’s travelled through somewhere like Waterloo 15/30 seconds before departure time will hear lots of little whistles encouraging passengers to join the train NOW or be left behind, why is this not enough?

I have never heard of people being let off for "air" or whatever in 40+ years of using trains. Does it happen often?

After Lewisham self evacuation, it is imperative that trains are detained in platforms rather than in the middle of nowhere. This allows passengers the chance to make alternative arrangements or seek refreshments and stops other lines from having to be closed due to a self evacuation. Anything from points failure, ill passenger on another train or a broken down train should see trains detained at stations where possible.

 

[Brubulus]

I have never heard of people being let off for "air" or whatever in 40+ years of using trains. Does it happen often?

Definitely happens. Usually seems to happen when a train has been held at a station for a while and the driver is sure it isn't going anywhere soon, with a clear indication of how long people can go outside.

 

[ExRes]

I have never heard of people being let off for "air" or whatever in 40+ years of using trains. Does it happen often?

I remember with Project Rio that we had a few minutes wait at Wellingborough on the down trip, smoking passengers were often told that they could get off for a quickie, whether anyone agreed or not at least it lessened the chances of people using the train toilets

 

[Bikeman78]

It is also surely possible to have 800 doors all open and stay open at termini, rather than closing individually 2 minutes after the button was last pressed.

It's not two minutes. More like 45 seconds I think.

 

[mrcheek]

I have never heard of people being let off for "air" or whatever in 40+ years of using trains. Does it happen often?

Back in the days when you could smoke on stations but not on trains, if a train was due to sit at a station for a few minutes, it would usually be announced that people could get off the train to "get some air", or "stretch their legs", when of course most were just getting off for a quick smoke (the conductor often being one of them)

 

[185]

The nonsense about whistles and covid, for many removed another vital piece of kit from the guard. Even though the rules have long gone, many have not resumed using whistles - which might have prevented this situation.

 

[londonbridge]

10th April. Why am I not surprised this occured on GWR on a Sunday.

10th April was a Thursday……

 

[Lewisham2221]

I’m sure the SWR Desiros make a fairly soft bong before the doors open, and a rapid louder beep for them closing. The softer noise could be the “closing for heat” sound.

All rolling stock should have a different tone for "doors opening" and "doors closing" - it's a PRM requirement - so using the same tone for opening and for auto-closing would be a no go.

 

[aar0]

Anyone who’s travelled through somewhere like Waterloo 15/30 seconds before departure time will hear lots of little whistles encouraging passengers to join the train NOW or be left behind, why is this not enough?

Isn’t it 40 seconds? And isn’t that when the doors lock, so are the whistles at 50 seconds? As a regular end to end user of the GWR Swansea - London services and I don’t remember the last time whistles were blown at either termini. So is this door beeping and I need to get on right now, as dispatch is running a little ahead? Or have I got time to get to the door of my carriage?

All rolling stock should have a different tone for "doors opening" and "doors closing" - it's a PRM requirement - so using the same tone for opening and for auto-closing would be a no go.

Ah ok that makes sense. I just particularly remember the Desiro bong on arriving at stations and hadn’t clocked it meant the doors were opening - I thought it signalled they could be opened.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Ah ok that makes sense. I just particularly remember the Desiro bong on arriving at stations and hadn’t clocked it meant the doors were opening - I thought it signalled they could be opened.

Yeah, I think it's actually "doors released" rather than "doors opening", but it still needs to differ from the "doors closing" chime

 

[Dr Hoo]

I have never heard of people being let off for "air" or whatever in 40+ years of using trains. Does it happen often?

I’ve had it happen a couple of times at wayside stations that weren’t normal calling points because of a line blockage ahead. Totton on a ‘fast’ Bournemouth and Camelon on the Highland Chieftain spring to mind. In both cases the ‘guard’ kept a close eye on things. Other occasions in times past with needing a loco change or waiting a path during single line working for engineering works but at booked calls.

 

[stuving]

It is shown as having been at Swindon at 17:23 (18 minutes late) (I presume the train not being scheduled to stop there prevented a separate arrival and departure time from being recorded). It appears to have lost 27 minutes in total between passing Swindon East Loop at 17:08 (4 minutes late) and Wootton Basset Junction at 17:40 (31 minutes late), but it is not clear how long the unscheduled stop was, and how long the doors were open for.

RTT attributes that time of 17:23 as "TD". OpenRail (aka Liverail), which says it uses only TRUST, shows the equivalent actual pass time as 17:35 (and Wootton Bassett Junction as 17:40). I think that should be the departure time after an unplanned stop.

 

[Royston Vasey]

I have never heard of people being let off for "air" or whatever in 40+ years of using trains. Does it happen often?

Reminds me of a day an EMR Nottingham - Liverpool was stopped at Dore & Totley due to a points failure on the new loop. Unscheduled, no buses to Manchester Airport from there. Guard let a lot off, milling around wondering what to do. Over the bridge to the car park, no taxi rank. Call Uber! Not enough nearby for quick pickups but taxi sharing was arranged - and they waited, and waited. The train set off and left quite a lot behind.

Happened to me also at Dore & Totley due to a dragging brake on a Liverpool-Norwich. I'd smelled burning brakes already just after leaving Stockport, we lost time all the way through the Hope Valley and eventually the driver had to have the line closed to go down onto the track to isolate the brake. Stationary for over an hour and proceeded at low speed to terminate at Sheffield.

That was a pretty safe situation to be let off for air, the guard encouraged it, kept everyone informed, chatted to everyone both on the train and platform and corralled everybody back on very thoroughly before departing. That's how you do that.