Passengers stranded after being let off train for fresh air

[pompeyfan]

Isn’t it 40 seconds? And isn’t that when the doors lock, so are the whistles at 50 seconds? As a regular end to end user of the GWR Swansea - London services and I don’t remember the last time whistles were blown at either termini. So is this door beeping and I need to get on right now, as dispatch is running a little ahead? Or have I got time to get to the door of my carriage?

I meant 15 seconds before the early departure, so about 60 seconds from the booked departure time there would usually be whistles of encouragement, at -45 seconds would be the final whilst and indication of station duties complete, even if people were still walking up the platform. As I’ve said before the doors hustle chime indicates the doors will close immediately and to stand clear to prevent getting trapped in them. That is the only purpose of the hustle alarm.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

If you hear the hustle alarm and you’re half way between 2 sets of doors even Usain Bolt in his prime isn’t getting to the doors in time.

I'm not Usain Bolt and I'm pretty sure I've managed it a few times.

Anyone who’s travelled through somewhere like Waterloo 15/30 seconds before departure time will hear lots of little whistles encouraging passengers to join the train NOW or be left behind, why is this not enough?

Try travelling from Abbey Wood on the Elizabeth line. The train sits there for 7-8 minutes (because it's the terminus) and then there's literally no indication at all on the platform that the train is about to pull out except for the hustle sound from any open doors - which is of course exactly the same as the hustle sound that you hear whenever any doors auto-close during those 7-8 minutes.

 

[Krokodil]

The nonsense about whistles and covid, for many removed another vital piece of kit from the guard. Even though the rules have long gone, many have not resumed using whistles - which might have prevented this situation.

Worth remembering that we don't (and probably never will) know the full story.

All rolling stock should have a different tone for "doors opening" and "doors closing" - it's a PRM requirement - so using the same tone for opening and for auto-closing would be a no go.

I wonder if a slower tempo of the usual closing alarm would do. It would sound less urgent.

 

[duffield]

I have never heard of people being let off for "air" or whatever in 40+ years of using trains. Does it happen often?

It's a regular thing on the HOWL (Heart of Wales Line) - smoke/vape breaks when waiting for another train at a passing point; announced by the guard when I was on it recently, and others have reported the same.

 

[jon0844]

Why reinvent the wheel. The hustle alarm is solely there to advise that the doors are closing and the hazard this might cause to passengers.

Until every single train has exactly the same sound played, having a new one to suggest something else is not going to help. Who would know what means what?

Even the number of times a sound plays has changed over the years and older stock isn't changed.

And I recall some drivers used to play the rather lengthy explanation of what a hustle alarm is announcement on class 365s. Most didn't and I've never heard such an announcement on newer stock, so suspect they don't even have that option.

I have heard some messages along the lines of this train is ready to depart, stand clear of the doors, on class 717s - which the driver triggers before actually closing the doors, but it's very rare and probably just one driver that found the option...

 

[norbitonflyer]

Happened to me also at Dore & Totley due to a dragging brake on a Liverpool-Norwich. I'd smelled burning brakes already just after leaving Stockport, we lost time all the way through the Hope Valley and eventually the driver had to have the line closed to go down onto the track to isolate the brake. Stationary for over an hour and proceeded at low speed to terminate at Sheffield.

That was a pretty safe situation to be let off for air, the guard encouraged it, kept everyone informed, chatted to everyone both on the train and platform and corralled everybody back on very thoroughly before departing. That's how you do that.

Happened to me at Kemble. Train broken down in the single track section ahead, so going nowhere until it got fixed. Went to the pub to phone the person who was meeting me at Cheltenham. (This was in the 80s, before mobile phines

 

[contrex]

An average French traveller would no doubt nip out for a quick nicotine hit.

I have done that during stops at Valence and Marseille on various trips and noticed the chef de train enjoying une jolie clope, and felt it was prudent to keep them in sight. One offered to swap one of his for one of mine.

 

[RichardAsh1981]

Just to add to the anecdotes, I remember once on a secondary route service which was booked to stand at a station for a reasonable time (maybe 10 minutes), not only did the guard invite us to step out for air, but came back on the PA a few minutes later to repeat the offer as no one had done so. As this was into evening I think most passengers could not be bothered!

 

[Killingworth]

Given the train is already delayed, if I allow passengers off for this reason I always advise them of the "terms of engagement" and will keep my side of the bargain before dispatching the train - that might cover "don't go further than the car park, but I will come and shout or blow a whistle when we can go" or similar and I will keep to it - 2 or 3 extra minutes to mobilise doesn't hurt.

On one occasion a colleague got stranded at Edale and came to an arrangement with the Ramblers Arms that they would let them know when the train was ready and the passengers could go to the pub, on the understanding that if they'd got to go they'd have to leave their drinks and go straight out to the train.

It worked a treat and everyone was happy!

Already late running 2S88 1645 Manchester Piccadilly to Sheffield stopped at Edale for 8 minutes today, apparently to allow passengers to visit the toilet at the Rambler Inn because that on the train was out of action. No report on how that was arranged.

 

[LowLevel]

Already late running 2S88 1645 Manchester Piccadilly to Sheffield stopped at Edale for 8 minutes today, apparently to allow passengers to visit the toilet at the Rambler Inn because that on the train was out of action. No report on how that was arranged.

The same unit was the cause of the cancellation of the 1945 service after the crew refused to do a second round trip on it after the experience of the first one with Bank Holiday revellers.

 

[infobleep]

Why reinvent the wheel. The hustle alarm is solely there to advise that the doors are closing and the hazard this might cause to passengers.

You can of course press the door open button to reopen them. Or at least that works before the guard has blown the whistle for the train to depart. I don't think the sound is any different between the two types of door closing sequences, though.

 

[800301]

I have never heard of people being let off for "air" or whatever in 40+ years of using trains. Does it happen often?

The other day I got brought up to a Red at Hayes and Harlington, a station I’m not booked to call at, a train had failed in ETCS ahead of me and after a reset still wasn’t able to get moving, after being at a stand for less than 5 mins I was contacted on GSMR from GWR Control that I have permission to release doors as they are unsure as to how long I will be sitting there for, I communicated the message to all on board and station staff, before departure station staff made various announcements stating my stopping pattern as did I and we continued on our way without drama, from what I could see on the monitors no more than a handful of people left the train in the 20 mins I was there.

On Thursday evening a train hit a deer between Swindon and Didcot Parkway which caused damages to air pipes rendering it a failure, this caused some trains to be delayed for over 2 hours, some unfortunately not in stations, even with a train being platformed at Swindon it didn’t stop a fight breaking out on it because of unhappy people, another train that was at Didcot had some very upset people in regards to the climate control, as during the day it had been quite warm out but during the evening it was much cooler and people wanted the heating turned up

 

[infobleep]

Indeed, and how are passengers to know the difference between alarms for 'Doors closing but train is not leaving' and 'Doors closing and train is leaving now'?

This happened to me recently. I had some headphones on but nothing playing through them.

I got to the platform, having changed trains, and saw orange flashing door lights. I pressed them and the doors did not reopen. Train then departed.

I then got the next train.

Why reinvent the wheel? Well changing to two different noises to distinguish the two situations isn't really reinventing the wheel is it. It's more like, making a change to the signals in order to solve the fact that the current situation is confusing.


I think passengers would very quickly learn to tell the difference, just from experience.

I once missed my stop because I was engrossed in something and there was no announcement about the next station. I think I was on a First Captial Connect train and I was so use to hearing announcements on South West Trains, my brain was conditioned to expect such a thing.

After Lewisham self evacuation, it is imperative that trains are detained in platforms rather than in the middle of nowhere. This allows passengers the chance to make alternative arrangements or seek refreshments and stops other lines from having to be closed due to a self evacuation. Anything from points failure, ill passenger on another train or a broken down train should see trains detained at stations where possible.

How do they decide when a train needs to remain in a platform? I have examples in recent years of being held outside stations.

Recently the 19:12 train from Haywards Heath to London Victoira was late and arrived after 19:17 had departed. I got on the 19:17 and north of Haywards Heath railway station they brought us to a stand so the other train could overtake us. I know we weren't held for long, but we weren't held in the station platform, and as there are two north bound platforms, it would be possible.

As an aside, a week later I decided to board the late running 20:12 and let the 20:17 go. That week they didn't hold that train, so I boarded the wrong one and missed my unofficial connection at Gatwick Airport. On a perfectly day the unofficial connection time between my trains is 6 minutes.

Definitely happens. Usually seems to happen when a train has been held at a station for a while and the driver is sure it isn't going anywhere soon, with a clear indication of how long people can go outside.

I was once on a train that had to return back to Eshser, wrong line, I think. It wasn't far. We then had to wait sometime. I imagine it may be been close to 2 hours. I don't remember the guard saying we could go and come back, although they did keep us informed.

The same unit was the cause of the cancellation of the 1945 service after the crew refused to do a second round trip on it after the experience of the first one with Bank Holiday revellers.

Was the bank holiday revellers issue due to the lack of working loos, something else or both?

I've read people say it's better to run a train in service than cancel it just because the loos are not working.

 

[Falcon1200]

How do they decide when a train needs to remain in a platform? I have examples in recent years of being held outside stations.

When an unplanned incident occurs with no timescale for resolution, trains will be held in platforms - As much as possible. However there might be more trains affected than platforms available. In the case you go on to mention it was known how long the train would be held for, and it was not long, so no real reason to keep it in the platform.

 

[PLY2AYS]

Seen a lot of comments about different sounds for doors opening, auto closing and closing for dispatch.

It surely wouldn’t be that difficult, given that doors are controlled by a guard on most GWR services, to have an announcement that says “the doors are now closing and this train will soon leave the station” followed by a hustle alarm.

That would be pretty self explanatory (to those who aren’t hard of hearing). And not too difficult to programme differently from the auto close function, I would imagine.

It would mean there doesn’t need to be uniformity in hustle alarms, provided that every TOC and variation of rolling stock was able to follow this trend.

 

[Starmill]

It certainly seems inconsistent that the sound for doors closing on the timer (in which case the correct action is to press the button to reopen them) is the same as the sound for doors closing irrevocably (in which case the correct action is to stand clear).

Lots of Continental units solve this by closing the door very, very slowly when it's only closing on the cooldown. They close at normal speed when the close doors button is pressed. I know it's not an entirely obvious thing to conclude but it does at least prevent people from panicking about the doors closing as much.

No, I haven't seen it written anywhere.

It's written on stickers on some trains. LNER have it I think. This is far preferable to the ridiculous announcements GWR use, but they're conveying the same message.

I have never heard of people being let off for "air" or whatever in 40+ years of using trains. Does it happen often?

Frankly you'd hope the air conditioning on the train is capable of keeping air moving at a cool temperature even with a full and standing aisle. Of course, it's so frequently the case, even with newer rolling stock, that the air conditioning simply can't keep full carriages cool. I do not know why that is.

 

[renegademaster]

I remember being on a trackbashing tour of the South London suburban lines a few years ago (forgot the name) and the gaurd was letting off at each turnaround to take pictures, but we ended up making them quite late being quite slow to reboard the train, he eventually stopped unlocking the doors.

 

[The exile]

Seen a lot of comments about different sounds for doors opening, auto closing and closing for dispatch.

It surely wouldn’t be that difficult, given that doors are controlled by a guard on most GWR services, to have an announcement that says “the doors are now closing and this train will soon leave the station” followed by a hustle alarm.

That would be pretty self explanatory (to those who aren’t hard of hearing). And not too difficult to programme differently from the auto close function, I would imagine.

It would mean there doesn’t need to be uniformity in hustle alarms, provided that every TOC and variation of rolling stock was able to follow this trend.

Doesn’t help those on the platform, though.

 

[RGM654]

Any hope for consistency in door sounds is doomed, when the trains bleep to tell you the doors are closing but the buses bleep while the doors are open and stop bleeping when they are about to close.

 

[infobleep]

When an unplanned incident occurs with no timescale for resolution, trains will be held in platforms - As much as possible. However there might be more trains affected than platforms available. In the case you go on to mention it was known how long the train would be held for, and it was not long, so no real reason to keep it in the platform.

Thanks, that makes sense.

I just wish there was a way of passengers know this so they can decide which train to catch. It might be quiet a niche request to be fair.

 

[ALEMASTER]

I have never heard of people being let off for "air" or whatever in 40+ years of using trains. Does it happen often?

I imagine in an example like this where the train was reportedly uncomfortably overcrowded and the train being delayed at an unscheduled stop it would be considered a reasonable practice.

 

[PLY2AYS]

Doesn’t help those on the platform, though.

Why wouldn’t it? It wouldn’t be hard to make that announcement from the same speakers as the hustle alarm…

 

[bunnahabhain]

Is that documented anywhere? I've been on many forms of public transport, in many countries, where it's implemented and treated as 'board quickly'.

If it were an alert to board because the train is departing shortly it would sound before the 'close' button is pressed. This is why LUL have substandard hustle alarm times, to discourage people from running. On LUL you know once that sounds the door is shutting just over 1 second later, not the almost 4 seconds on the national network.

People are genetically programmed to take a risk and run for the doors or hold them open, thinking that like a lift door they will reopen if they put their hand or leg in them.

 

[Krokodil]

This is why LUL have substandard hustle alarm times, to discourage people from running. On LUL you know once that sounds the door is shutting just over 1 second later, not the almost 4 seconds on the national network.

How does that work legally? The Rail Vehicle Accessibility Regulations require a minimum of three seconds.

 

[TheManBehind]

Given the train is already delayed, if I allow passengers off for this reason I always advise them of the "terms of engagement" and will keep my side of the bargain before dispatching the train - that might cover "don't go further than the car park, but I will come and shout or blow a whistle when we can go" or similar and I will keep to it - 2 or 3 extra minutes to mobilise doesn't hurt.

On one occasion a colleague got stranded at Edale and came to an arrangement with the Ramblers Arms that they would let them know when the train was ready and the passengers could go to the pub, on the understanding that if they'd got to go they'd have to leave their drinks and go straight out to the train.

It worked a treat and everyone was happy!

Did that at Surbiton once on a particularly stormy day! Sent a load over to the flyer, and when I got the nod, popped over and hustled them all back - happy customers for the sake of an additional couple of minutes on a sixty-minute-plus delay...

Isn’t it 40 seconds? And isn’t that when the doors lock, so are the whistles at 50 seconds? As a regular end to end user of the GWR Swansea - London services and I don’t remember the last time whistles were blown at either termini. So is this door beeping and I need to get on right now, as dispatch is running a little ahead? Or have I got time to get to the door of my carriage?

Ah ok that makes sense. I just particularly remember the Desiro bong on arriving at stations and hadn’t clocked it meant the doors were opening - I thought it signalled they could be opened.

GWR don't use whistles now as part of dispatch - apparently it led to accidents due to people...well, hustling, I suppose! Whistles are still used to get attention for safety purposes, but now it's just straight to pushing the close button. I miss it from my SWR days - the whistle was such a distinct sound to encourage the hustle rather than the door chimes (or blarps in the IET case) - especially when a proper plastic thunderer was being used.

 

[Krokodil]

Did that at Surbiton once on a particularly stormy day! Sent a load over to the flyer, and when I got the nod, popped over and hustled them all back - happy customers for the sake of an additional couple of minutes on a sixty-minute-plus delay...

A retired colleague told me that he was once working a train (probably a Blue Square DMMU) that conked out at Bodorgan. He had a group of lads who were going on a night out in Conwy. In those days the pub opposite the station at Bodorgan was still in business and they did very good business that night!

 

[bunnahabhain]

How does that work legally? The Rail Vehicle Accessibility Regulations require a minimum of three seconds.

Justified on safety grounds by reducing the liklihood of a trap and drag, the psychological influence is to not run for the train with just over 1 second hustle, as opposed to running for it because there's just enough time with the 3-4 second hustle.

 

[Krokodil]

Justified on safety grounds by reducing the liklihood of a trap and drag, the psychological influence is to not run for the train with just over 1 second hustle, as opposed to running for it because there's just enough time with the 3-4 second hustle.

I get the principle behind it, I'm just wondering if there's a legal mechanism to exempt metro stock from the normal regulations.

 

[pompeyfan]

GWR don't use whistles now as part of dispatch - apparently it led to accidents due to people...well, hustling, I suppose! Whistles are still used to get attention for safety purposes, but now it's just straight to pushing the close button. I miss it from my SWR days - the whistle was such a distinct sound to encourage the hustle rather than the door chimes (or blarps in the IET case) - especially when a proper plastic thunderer was being used.

I thought whistle were required under the RSSB rule book when communicating between platform dispatcher and guard? How does that work for trains that are dispatched by non GWR stations? SWR, GTR, NR and probably TfW stations.

 

[LowLevel]

I thought whistle were required under the RSSB rule book when communicating between platform dispatcher and guard? How does that work for trains that are dispatched by non GWR stations? SWR, GTR, NR and probably TfW stations.

The whistle is just to draw attention and as far as I know isn't mentioned in the rules at all.

The hand signal "one arm raised above the head" with or without accompanying baton or lamp is the rule book "platform duties complete" hand signal.