Pay Increase after changing TOC?

[GriffoBrighton]

Has anyone any further news on this? RMT are now looking to take this up and going down the legal advice route. I ssupect if several people start the same, especially against the likes of certain TOCS, this could become a class action?

Did you register this issue with the RMT?

 

[thelongestroad]

I'm in a similar position.

I'm "missing out" on the thick end of about £2.5-3k, so keen to see what is going on.

Has anyone any further news on this? RMT are now looking to take this up and going down the legal advice route. I ssupect if several people start the same, especially against the likes of certain TOCS, this could become a class action?

Are you saying the RMT are looking at taking it up?

 

[GriffoBrighton]

I really hope that they do. Has anyone heard anything about it

 

[GalaxyDog]

I'm in a similar position.

I'm "missing out" on the thick end of about £2.5-3k, so keen to see what is going on.


Are you saying the RMT are looking at taking it up?

It would seem that way. If you are still with RMT but changed tocs/positions, contact your former reps asap.

 

[thelongestroad]

No reply from mine so emailed my former branch.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

I would advise anyone trying yo make a claim for the back payment to do so soon, as far as I understand you have 3 months less 1 day to claim for it otherwise you won't be able to take it to acas/tribunal etc

 

[alexapost]

I would advise anyone trying yo make a claim for the back payment to do so soon, as far as I understand you have 3 months less 1 day to claim for it otherwise you won't be able to take it to acas/tribunal etc

Is this TOC dependent ?
When I have asked my previous TOC they have informed me that I am not entitled to any pay

 

[GalaxyDog]

Is this TOC dependent ?
When I have asked my previous TOC they have informed me that I am not entitled to any pay

That's why ACAS etc are being approached. I've emailed my TOC two weeks ago, got the rebuff in writing and so now have a formal declination to challenge. Contact your TOC's HR asap, see what they say and go from there.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

Is this TOC dependent ?
When I have asked my previous TOC they have informed me that I am not entitled to any pay

A few tocs I have heard are saying not entitled to it if you have left, the document I posted above shows an employment tribunal claim of a similar nature, not quite the same but similar enough

If your toc isn't paying it backdated, then you have 3 months less a day to make an employment tribunal claim, yes the rmt may be looking into it but you need to get the claim to the employment tribunal before 3 months are up

 

[745appreciator]

To add to this, I recently contacted my former TOC about back pay. They seem pretty steadfast. (I resigned from a FirstGroup TOC in July 2023 in good standing.)

The entire reply reads: 'When the RMT offer was agreed, we were also informed that employees that left the company prior to the agreement being made on 30/11/2023 would not be entitled to the back pay. This is the industry’s decision on back pay and affects every employee that left the company prior to that date.'

By 'the industry's decision', I presume they mean something they, the RDG or the DfT have made up, otherwise they would have said the RMT had agreed it. Note also the passive voice – they 'were informed' by whom?

I'm in a real bind as I am no longer on the railway and, obviously, left the RMT when I resigned. My current union is in a totally different industry and will have no expertise whatsoever if the RMT refuse to help me, and will in any case refuse to deal with a matter predating my membership. I hope the RMT do help me, as I was an active member and stood on the picket line to win a pay rise I'm now being denied by what I presume is the employer's cynicism.

I will contact the RMT next week to see what they say. I probably won't bother with ACAS. If neither the RMT nor my current union won't help, I will look into pursuing the TOC using the legal cover on my home insurance. It's outrageous.

 

[thelongestroad]

Responses from RMT:

Unfortunately train operating companies are not obliged to make payments to anyone who has left employment with them before the agreement was made, and there is also no provision in law for this to be challenged. However the RMT believes you should receive this and has made representations to request that it is implemented.

And when I followed up:

As mentioned below, there is no legal basis for challenging the company on this, as the payments for those who left employment before the agreement was made are entirely at their discretion. It is the union’s position that you should be paid, and if there are any developments, members will be advised accordingly.

 

[MatthewLdn]

I received this from RMT:

Thank you for your note, I can confirm leavers before 30-November-2023 when the referendum closed will not be paid back pay.

The only exception is to this is transfers between First Group Train Operating Company, where continuity of service is maintained, they are eligible for back pay for their service with their previous Train Operating Company. However, as we don’t have records of leavers’ new employers, this will only be paid on request.

Transferees should contact their previous Train Operating Company to request the back pay, the Train Operating Company will confirm service continuity with the new Train Operating Company and then calculate and pay the back pay. This means that payment will not be in December. Individuals will need to remember to tell their previous Train Operating Company if their bank details have changed.

For clarity this applies to GWR, SWR and TPE.

 

[GalaxyDog]

Well, this is a mix of replies indeed. I have moved from TOC to elsewhere and have moved branch, having remained with RMT. I am being advised to apply to ACAS and to take it forward with advice from branch admin.

 

[thelongestroad]

The union seems convinced there's no legal obligation. I'm not sure if a tribunal would rule otherwise.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

The union seems convinced there's no legal obligation. I'm not sure if a tribunal would rule otherwise.

Yes, they is no current legal obligation as it wasn't in employment contracts or discussed in the pay talks themselves.

However, if nobody challenged things that weren't 'in law', law woukd be useless. People can create change.

I would 100% be pursuing this, we all know that those who were employed during the pay year this relates to are due this backpay, and whilst it probably does need a legal challenge, I think a tribunal would have to seriously consider the argument for this.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

I posted in post 27 the link to a similar tribunal claim, it based around someone who had retired from a council part way through the year, and by my reading as it was an increase to annual salary and not just an increase to hourly rate it was successful, but crucial thing was to make claim for lost earning before the deadline of doing so

 

[GalaxyDog]

It's not looking good, judging from correspondence I've received today. I'm awaiting a final answer but quietly suspect I may be stopping my RMT subs from hereon out.

 

[Horizon22]

It's not looking good, judging from correspondence I've received today. I'm awaiting a final answer but quietly suspect I may be stopping my RMT subs from hereon out.

That seems a bit extreme. Why? Because they won't pursue it? Or perhaps they have weighed up the options and don't believe they'd be able to persue it succesfully and it would be costly for them to do so.

 

[GalaxyDog]

That seems a bit extreme. Why? Because they won't pursue it? Or perhaps they have weighed up the options and don't believe they'd be able to persue it succesfully and it would be costly for them to do so.

Going to await a final answer before I decide.

 

[Bantamzen]

I've had some experience of this in my own sector (public sector) / union as a rep in the past, where pay awards have taken some time and not paid retrospectively to employees who have left, even when to another department but remained with the same union. Generally speaking there has been no obligation for an employer to pay retrospective backpay to employees who have left before a deal was agreed. This is normally stipulated in the agreement with a date set that employees must be in their employment in order to receive the deal. The only exceptions I've ever seen is where moves were compulsory (e.g. done under TUPE, or as a managed move following a grievance). So if your rep / union advises that they would not be confident is perusing your case, there will be good reason too as it could prove to be a long, and costly one with limited chance of success. I would carefully consider your options if this indeed the response you get. There are various examples of similar questions elsewhere in other industries online if you have a search using your preferred search engine, and the answer seems to be pretty much consistent.

 

[sleepinghobby]

Like many others, I have been informed by the RMT that I am not entitled to backpay.