PDFs and how they work.

[SouthStand]

A lot of these problems would be solved if TOCs didn't insist on using PDF which is entirely the wrong format for train tickets. It's designed to be printed, not for showing on phones. I bet a vanishingly small number of people rush to their printer just for a hard copy of a train ticket these days.

Google Wallet, Applet Wallet, and .pkpass are far more robust and less prone to user error. They don't disappear if you forget to login to your favourite TOC account, or if you don't have a network connection, either.

That's complete rubbish.

I quote:

"Portable Document Format (PDF), standardized as ISO 32000, is a file format developed by Adobe in 1992 to present documents, including text formatting and images, in a manner independent of application software, hardware, and operating systems."

Modern smartphones are perfectly capable of displaying such documents.

 

[tornado]

SouthStand, sorry that's complete rubbish. Presumably your quote is from Adobe.

PDFs are for printing. They are not great for viewing documents on the web. neither are they great for phones. It's simply too computationally expensive for rendering something as simple as a QR code, which needs to pop up in less than a second.

Also, a PDF is fixed at the moment of creation to display well at a fixed size (normally A4). They do not reflow to fit a phone screen. You can only display the original format zoomed to fit, and your phone will likely have a different screen ratio to a sheet of paper.

Have you actually tried Google Wallet or .pkpass?

 

[najaB]

PDFs are for printing. They are not great for viewing documents on the web. neither are they great for phones.

More accurately, PDF is designed to be a portable way to represent a printed document - the hint is kinda in the name.

 

[tornado]

Thre is a difference between portable as in "operating-system agnostic", and portable as in "designed for portable devices".

 

[Ediswan]

The problem here is not the use of PDF. PDF is not 'designed to be printed'. The problem is the TOC generating the ticket as a document which is intended for printing (A4?). It is the document which needs to be designed for portable devices. PDF would quite happily support a document formatted to fit a phone screen. Anything which fits a phone screen would likely work on a larger screen, or printed.

If anything, PDF was originally developed to reduce the need for printed documents, part of the much-heralded 'paperless office'. Publishers go to a lot of trouble to layout their pages. Previous electronic document formats would cheerfuly mangle these layouts. The purpose of PDF was to allow the production of electronic documents which would always have the same layout and appearance, wherever it is viewed. As @tornado says, fixed at the time of creation.

 

[tornado]

@Ediswan, I agree but then the TOC would have to generate two PDFs with every sale.

There's also the computational overhead of loading a PDF viewer on a phone just to show the ticket, when more integrated formats are built in to Android/iOS.

 

[Ediswan]

@Ediswan, I agree but then the TOC would have to generate two PDFs with every sale.

Why ? A single PDF document formatted for a phone would fit on any larger screen, or A4 paper.

 

[jon0844]

No chipset makers produces an SoC that is incapable of displaying a PDF on a smartphone. Sure, a feature phone won't be able to, but anything that runs Android or iOS can show a PDF without breaking a sweat. Even some £49.99 Android One device with 0.5GB RAM and 32GB storage and a version of Android from five or six years ago.

 

[30907]

As a non-techie person and purely for info: I have had PDF tickets from DB, ÖBB and CD on my Android phone and they have been checked without problem using the respective operator's scanner. (I had, being cautious, also printed out copies but didn't use them - this was summer 2018 or 19).

 

[najaB]

Chrome on Android does not open pdfs natively as it doesn't have a plugin architecture.

True. But pretty much every Android handset manufacturer includes a PDF viewer in their default software suite. Certainly, every phone I've owned has one.

 

[SouthStand]

SouthStand, sorry that's complete rubbish. Presumably your quote is from Adobe.

PDFs are for printing. They are not great for viewing documents on the web. neither are they great for phones. It's simply too computationally expensive for rendering something as simple as a QR code, which needs to pop up in less than a second.

Also, a PDF is fixed at the moment of creation to display well at a fixed size (normally A4). They do not reflow to fit a phone screen. You can only display the original format zoomed to fit, and your phone will likely have a different screen ratio to a sheet of paper.

Have you actually tried Google Wallet or .pkpass?

I suggest you get a modern smartphone, pdfs display perfectly fine on my iPhone.

 

[D365]

What's the issue here?

If I had to choose between only one digital format for my e-tickets, I'd far rather it be PDF than a native "wallet" file that would prevent me from printing i.e. having a physical and digital copy.

 

[tornado]

I suggest you get a modern smartphone, pdfs display perfectly fine on my iPhone.

It's not about me personally. It's about a process that the vast majority of the population should be able to manage with the smallest amount of configuration and effort.

Using pdf requires installation of 3 apps: a pdf reader (on android phones), an email client, and the TOC app itself. Using a digital wallet only requires the TOC app.

Furthermore, if you go via email you then have to hunt around in your message list, and scroll through the relevant email to get the attachment. Hardly fun if you're doing it daily.

It just doesnt make sense to send the ticket out from your phone to a server, download it in a different app, and then open it in yet a third app!

If I had to choose between only one digital format for my e-tickets, I'd far rather it be PDF than a native "wallet" file that would prevent me from printing i.e. having a physical and digital copy.

But the TOC app will simulatenously send you an email with the PDFs, so can do that if want too.

 

[D365]

It's not about me personally. It's about a process that the vast majority of the population should be able to manage with the smallest amount of configuration and effort.

Using pdf requires installation of 3 apps: a pdf reader (on android phones), an email client, and the TOC app itself. Using a digital wallet only requires the TOC app.

Furthermore, if you go via email you then have to hunt around in your message list, and scroll through the relevant email to get the attachment. Hardly fun if you're doing it daily.

It just doesnt make sense to send the ticket out from your phone to a server, download it in a different app, and then open it in yet a third app!



But the TOC app will simulatenously send you an email with the PDFs, so can do that if want too.

Are you saying that "e-paper" train tickets should be issued as a different format instead of PDF? Or that e-tickets should only be issued in "wallet" format?

It's worth bearing in mind that PDFs don't have to be a standard size; my EMR PDF tickets are printed to a width of appx. 6cm.

I purchase tickets using the EMR app on my iPhone and have set a rule for EMR emails to be moved into a dedicated folder. Rules takes a few minutes to set up, but they make my digital life very streamlined. Three different choices for presenting my QR code is better than a digital wallet which is tethered to a single device.

 

[tornado]

I'm saying that they should be paid for via Google/Apple Pay, issued in wallet format, with an emailed PDF backup for those who really want it. Currently only one TOC do this, Avanti.

I can buy a ticket in less than a minute without leaving my phone while walking to the station. I don't even need to fish a credit card out.

Does your average punter know how to set up email rules?

 

[Darandio]

Does your average punter know how to set up email rules?

It's 2021 so on average, yes.

 

[D365]

I'm saying that they should be paid for via Google/Apple Pay, issued in wallet format, with an emailed PDF backup for those who really want it. Currently only one TOC do this, Avanti.

What’s the issue with receiving a PDF automatically?

 

[AM9]

I'm saying that they should be paid for via Google/Apple Pay, issued in wallet format, with an emailed PDF backup for those who really want it. ...

No, PDFs have been an ISO standard since 2008, which means that printing and rasterising to displays with an common end-result image is a well matured application for almost every 'computing' device available. Adobe put their format into the public domain in 1993 with an unrestricted licence for use.
So in essence, it is a durable well-defined document format highly suitable for e-ticket use. If a mobile phone has trouble displaying a PDF document then there is either a fault on the device or the phone itself must be pretty well obsolete for anything like using e-tickets.

 

[GB]

Never had an issue with PDFs on any devices I have used ranging from cheap android phones to expensive phones and tablets. Don't see the issue.

 

[birchesgreen]

Problems viewing PDFs? What is this, the 90s?

 

[SouthStand]

Problems viewing PDFs? What is this, the 90s?

There aren't any problems lol, just someone making a tornado out of a breeze

 

[dosxuk]

Using pdf requires installation of 3 apps: a pdf reader (on android phones), an email client, and the TOC app itself. Using a digital wallet only requires the TOC app.

Wrong.

Most (all?) phones will come with a PDF reader pre-installed, I've certainly not seen one that hasn't for a number of years.

Using a digital wallet requires set up of the wallet app as well as the TOC app.

TOC apps could be designed to download the PDF file direct to the device, same as a wallet file. Email isn't required, although most people are happy that they get the email.

Furthermore, if you go via email you then have to hunt around in your message list, and scroll through the relevant email to get the attachment. Hardly fun if you're doing it daily.

Wrong.

I've never had to scroll through an email to find an attachment, they've always been at the top on all the email apps I've used on iOS and Android.

New emails tend to be shown near the top of your inbox, so are relatively easy to find.

It just doesnt make sense to send the ticket out from your phone to a server, download it in a different app, and then open it in yet a third app!

Even in the TOC app the codes will be generated on a server somewhere else, it makes no real difference whether that code is sent to the TOC app to be opened in a wallet app or as an email to be opened in a PDF viewer.



I would much rather the TOCs used open standards like PDF than proprietary formats that only work on certain mobile devices.

 

[DarloRich]

this seems like nonsense - perhaps the OP needs anew phone. I know that is something that seems to cause this board fits of the vapours but may be accurate.

 

[tornado]

Most (all?) phones will come with a PDF reader pre-installed

Do you have any proof of this, or is it just convenient for you to say so? PDF is not an integral part of Android, and neither of my mid-range phones bought in the last 5 years came with one.

I've never had to scroll through an email to find an attachment, they've always been at the top on all the email apps I've used on iOS and Android.

I'm looking at tickets sent by Avanti right now on Gmail for Android. The attachments are at the bottom.

New emails tend to be shown near the top of your inbox, so are relatively easy to find.

Why would I need to do this at all, when a digital wallet inserts a pinned notification on my lockscreen. If I bought the tickets 3 days before travel they certainly won't be at the top of my Inbox.

proprietary formats that only work on certain mobile devices.

Can you name a device that isn't covered by Google Wallet or Apple Wallet?

 

[DarloRich]

Do you have any proof of this, or is it just convenient for you to say so? PDF is not an integral part of Android, and neither of my mid-range phones bought in the last 5 years came with one.

I don't recall downloading a pdf reader for my Samsung. I cant find an app for one.

 

[mikeg]

I've always been able to use drive pdf viewer on every Android phone I've had.

 

[D365]

Do you have any proof of this, or is it just convenient for you to say so? PDF is not an integral part of Android, and neither of my mid-range phones bought in the last 5 years came with one.

So you have a phone that comes with a wallet, but no PDF reader? Are you sure?

Can you name a device that isn't covered by Google Wallet or Apple Wallet?

I still don't get what you're trying to argue here. What's the issue with receiving both a wallet pass and a PDF?

 

[AM9]

I've always been able to use drive pdf viewer on every Android phone I've had.

Same here, - I'm on my third Moto G phone, (the original Moto G with android 4.43, a Moto G3 with android 6.0.1 and now a Moto G8 plus with android 10), - the Moto G is a basic mid-range (some would say almost entry) phone with plain vanilla Android, i.e. no bloatware like Samsungs of the era. All three of them default to Google Drive which is perfectly adequate for displaying PDFs. I dread to think what @tornado uses as a 'smartphone' that has so much difficulty with basic PDF documents. Time for an update surely.

 

[dosxuk]

Can you name a device that isn't covered by Google Wallet or Apple Wallet?

Anything sold by Huawei for a start.

And people who aren't neck deep in the Google / Apple ecosystem - no Google wallet on this Samsung phone. Three options for pdf viewing though.

 

[tornado]

And people who aren't neck deep in the Google / Apple ecosystem - no Google wallet on this Samsung phone. Three options for pdf viewing though.

So you don't want to be in the Google ecosystem but you use pre-installed Google Drive to view PDFs?!

Also, as I said at the beginning of this thread I've used PDF tickets, .pkpass tickets, and Google Wallet tickets many times. It's very clear to me that the 3rd option is the easiest to use. It's the only one that appears on your lockscreen for a start.

I wonder how many people on this thread are using e-tickets daily, or could buy a ticket in less than 1 minute standing at the station using their preferred procedure.